Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by Annie, Dec 9, 2005.
You've certainly given me reason for a pause for thought. Aren't us Christians as the followers of Jesus of Nazareth the purveyors of "The Religion Of Peace?"
It seems to me that the flesh is weak and conveniently forgetful. From the Crusades to the Witches of Salem to the Jim Jones massacre, Christians don't seem to be adherent to the promises of their preaching. I certainly have my own relationship with Jesus and it doesn't include any of that or of this. WAR is WAR and WAR is IGNORANCE. Nothing else. So, what do we need? More education or more religion? I don't think the Ann Coulter solution, convert them or kill them, would be beneficial in light of all this education, would you?
Jim Jones was the head of a cult that had nothing to do with Christianity.
The Crusades happened over 700 years ago, a lot has changed since then.
Christians are also responsible for a lot of good in this world. You seem to overlook that.
War is sometimes necessary because there are bad people who come to power and try to do bad things like kill innocent people. These bad people don't respond well to reason and persuassion, so it unfortunately is necessary to use force.
We don't live in an ideal world. We have to sometimes deal with ignorant, bad people on their level.
I'm so sorry that you completely missed the point, Karl. Do you know anything about Jim and Tammy Baker, the empire building of Jerry Falwell, the recent abuses of Catholic Priests, Jimmy Swaggart or the Southern Babtist Convention?
Jim Jones headed a Church called The Deciples of Christ. He preached Christianity everyday in every way except his own personal failings. But, his flock grew and grew until he killed them all. The Crusades indeed occured many years ago. Do you remember the original name of the operation that we are now ensnarled in Iraq? Does "Operation Crusades" ring a bell with you?
I don't deny that Christians and particularly the words of Jesus Christ have been both meaningful and good for this world. I merely suggest that I have a problem with a self avowed Christian that would so eagerly and under false pretense lead me or my fellow Americans into a WAR based on assumption and or false information.
Christian, agnostic and atheistic Americans killed innocent people in our Revolution. We killed more in our Civil War. We killed more in WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam. We even killed innocents in Grenada and Panama. Spanish-American War? You really want to go on with this? We also have killed thousands of innocents due to our flawed justice system and overly zealous prosecutions of otherwise incompetents. I won't even go into the murders of Americans while trying to protect themselves and their families from corporate and private so-called "business interests."
So, who is not responding to reason and persuasion? Is "force" actually a viable or even intelligent solution?
What is your problem? Why must you deflect from the point of the post? You complain and cry about it when someone does this in one of your threads, but apparently your "standards" are only for others, not yourself.
psycho's hypocritical complaining
So, what about the original subject? Can you discuss it intelligently? Or must you laboriously include a dozen cuss words in your response? Do you and us a favor and just respond to the orginal subject with intelligent like words, not playground cuss words.
Do you agree or not agree with the statement of these muslims?
Come on, you can do it!
Psycho... I think that you need to calm down and quit reading so many comic books. Come off of your mountain and come to terms with reality.
The abuses that you point out are small potatoes compared to a bunch of Islamofascist pigs on the lunatic fringe that plow airplanes full of innocent people into skyscrapers, set 300 cities in Europe alight and vow the violent overthrow of Western civilization. Eventually, those clowns will get a nuclear bomb and aim it at us or Israel. Christians haven't been doing anything close to this, even when you take the goings on in the Balkans.
They are out to get you and me, Psycho, and they don't care if you support them or not. To them, you're an infidel and an American, that's all that matters to them. They want to slit your throat and your family's and if you give them the chance, they'll do it.
From the Book of Eccliesiastes Chapter 3 (King James Version)
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
And the way I see it... like Ben Grimm from the Fantastic Four used to say "It's Clobberin' Time, Baby!!!"
I didn't cuss and as much as the true believers in WAR would want me too, I will not calm down. Bullshit, innuendo and just plain lies don't get to me. EVER!!!! I expect and deserve, as an American, truth, justice and objective dialogue from my so-called leaders and particularly from a board that calls itself the United State Message Board.
Go ahead, cuss me and call me names. That is your perogative. I still think it juvenile and/or at least ignorant and/or immature when you do.
OBviously. Your mind is so used to them by now from your own mouth.
You seem to find yet another excuse for the "Religion of Peace" by not defending it but comparing it to past transgressions of Chritianity. You seem to miss major differences in your thinking.
Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell and Jim Swaggert are con artists. They are not Killers. A majority of christians disagree with the preachings and actions of these morons. These muslims are preaching the main beliefs of islam. The only difference between themselves and other muslims is that they are willing to KILL PEOPLE to get their way.
The Crusades were a good idea. Europe recognized that ISlam was going to be a problem one day. Unfortunately they were poorly planned and executed. It was the right idea for the time. Times have changed. They also dont sell pardons for people to enter heaven anymore. ITs the 21st century, psycho. PErhaps you and those muslims terrorist a-holes want to join us in it.
For someone so hell bent on "freedom and justice" and caring about those innocent iraqis being slaughtered by American Storm Troopers, you always seem to have an excuse for all the murdering done by the terrorists.
by Karen Armstrong, and several other books about the history of Christianity.
From my non-Christian, non-Muslim perspective, these religions look far more alike than different.
I was very struck by the peaceful origins of Islam. Muhammed's return to Mecca and the eventual creation of a multi-cultural Arab empire in which Christians and Jews were free to practice (though lightly taxed for the privilege) stands in stark contrast to the aggression and cruelty of the European Christians who embarked on the Crusades.
I was moved to learn that for its first 1000 years, Christianity really did maintain its peaceful character. Armstrong quotes the biographer of a knight about to embark on the First Crusade: "Frequently he burned with anxiety because the warfare he engaged in as a knight seemed to be contrary to the Lord's commands." She notes that the Eastern church never condoned warfare, and refused communion to active soldiers. She argues that Europe created a Muslim enemy as a "foil," by altering stories to create myths to justify hating Muslims. The famous story of Roland, who was killed by Basques, was altered, for example, making his killers Muslims. Similarly, the story was fabricated that Charlemagne went to Jerusalem. At the time of the Crusades, the Muslim empire was most advanced, scientifically and in political tolerance, on earth. Our many science-related Arabic-derived words (astronomy, alcohol), and our "Arabic" numbers testify to this. Try multiplying with Roman numerals.
Christian theologians worked overtime to twist their peaceful religion into a warlike one. The argument they used was the same that the Bush administration has been using in terms of rendition, torture, holding people at will, and secret prisons--"our laws apply here but not over there, where we can do what we want."
In fact, this was the same reasoning the Muslims used to justify defending their empire. In the Muslim view, the state and religion are one. Since there is just one true god--Allah--they could justify fighting in non-Muslim lands.
The Fourth Crusade, which destroyed the library of Alexandria (and the vast majority of the remaining Greek and Roman written legacy), was possibly the most destructive act in the history of Western Civilization.
Both Islam and Christianity began as religions of peace and nonviolence. Both also had their roots, however, in the violently angry god of the early Jewish writings (the Old Testament and others). And both were mixed with the local warlike character and pagan traditions where they took root (warlike Angles, Saxons, Franks, etc. in Europe, and tribal Arabians in Arabia). We still have all these pagan elements in our culture, from Easter (fertility) bunnies to the witches and goblins of Hallowe'en.
From my perspective of belonging to neither of these religions, it can look like monotheism itself carries a major risk. If you believe your god is the only one, and the only possible one, then it becomes all too easy to justify violence.
I utterly condemn the fundamentalism that seeks to control women in the original post that started this thread. I equally condemn the Christian fundamentalism that wants to make our United States into a "Christian nation," via school prayer, etc. They are one and the same, and arise from the same root. From my perspective, Islam versus Christianity is like two siblings at war with one another.
Someone pointed out above that Muslims are currently acting more violently than Christians. I would dispute this--invading Iraq has resulted in the death of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, whom we refuse to name or count. From the Muslim point of view, this doesn't go unnoticed. It is certainly true that fundamentalist Muslims are currently using terrorism and random violence. But a quick look back in history shows just how willing Christians have been to engage in unspeakable cruelty to Muslims. How can they just forget this?
Osama bin Laden was perfectly aware of all this history, and made it his explicit goal to re-ignite the ancient sibling rivalry between these two religions. How do we escape this cycle?
Kill or control all who try to impose their will on others using terrorism as a tactic.
Separate names with a comma.