Minimum wage

[expat_panama]

... we could go and take a look at the actual records available for historical minimum wages and compare them to labor compensation. The thing is that blanket statements about economics tend to go over better when they agree with fact.

Expat Panama, by truncating my sentence you changed the sentences meaning. Similar to quoting out of context, you have misquoted me. The sentence as posted was “Decreasing or eliminating the federal minimum wage will generally decrease ALL labor compensations’ purchasing powers more than otherwise”...

--and our disagreement boils down to you prefer rambling on about me while I prefer the facts, a choice between personality tiffs over reality. To each his own.

Don't anyone get me wrong here because if personal attacks were banned from the USMB the place would be pretty slow. It's that personality contests don't matter with economics any more than the magic wand makes a rabbit come out of a hat. They're both distractions intended to hide deceit.

Nevertheless for those that do care more about the economy than how wonderful Supposn is, the records for minimum wage and overall average wages show--

--that in the first place talk about what 'Decreasing or eliminating the federal minimum wage will' or won't do is silly because it's never happened and most probably won't ever happen. In the second place, raising or not raising it doesn't matter and over all wages go where the market (not government) says they go.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Minimum wage doesn't buy shit now

Back in the early 70s I worked minimum wage at $2.10 an hour

I could afford to pay for college, buy a car and get myself started in life. You can't do shit on min wage now

You can thank other liberal ideas for that.

College cost so much b/c they know gov will give a grant for 1/2 and a loan for the other half.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Here's a fact for your useless information file: Ronald Reagan is the only US president in modern times not to have raised the minimum wage. It stayed at $3.35 throughout his eight year presidency. He did however manage to decrease the top marginal tax rate to 28%. We've been paying for it ever since.

Tissue?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Yes, by all means what America needs now is even cheaper labor to compete with the Chinese.

"Prosperity Through lower Wages!"

Yepper lower wages will make people buy more and will jump start our consumer spending driven economy.

Lower wages brings down the cost of products and services making them more affordable and thus increasing consumption.

life never got better when the min wage went, it just got more expensive.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Ok the minimum wage does not apply to all workers, tell us how much better those classes of workers are doing because of that exception.

waitresses and farm workers are getting rich?

What make you think waitresses and farm workers are expecting to get rich?

Local fact; At a restaraunt called The Melt, servers make ~ $70k a year.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Forced minimum is nothing short of tyranny.

And it's a failed idea.

It was meant to allow people to afford a shitty car and place to live. With each increase the cost of a shitty car and place to live went up in cost.

It's gotten to the point we are no longer competative on an international scale.

Minimum wage was never meant to buy a car or place to live. You are thinking of living wage.

Well that's what I did with it.

If you want this phony living wage, you better earn it.

 

[editec]

Increasing wages for the working class causes inflation that apparently everyone can see.

But increasing the expendable income of the very wealthy classes causes INVESTMENT INFLATION (followed by investment bubbles bursting) and apparently nobody wants to talk about that problem.

Gee...I wonder why?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Increasing wages for the working class causes inflation that apparently everyone can see.

But increasing the expendable income of the very wealthy classes causes INVESTMENT INFLATION (followed by investment bubbles bursting) and apparently nobody wants to talk about that problem.

Gee...I wonder why?

It easier to understand that increasing the cost of doing business = increased cost of products and services.

 

[Supposn]

--and our disagreement boils down to you prefer rambling on about me while I prefer the facts, a choice between personality tiffs over reality. To each his own.

Don't anyone get me wrong here because if personal attacks were banned from the USMB the place would be pretty slow. It's that personality contests don't matter with economics any more than the magic wand makes a rabbit come out of a hat. They're both distractions intended to hide deceit.

Nevertheless for those that do care more about the economy than how wonderful Supposn is, the records for minimum wage and overall average wages show--

--that in the first place talk about what 'Decreasing or eliminating the federal minimum wage will' or won't do is silly because it's never happened and most probably won't ever happen. In the second place, raising or not raising it doesn't matter and over all wages go where the market (not government) says they go.

Expat Panama, by truncating my sentence to you “Decreasing or eliminating the federal minimum wage will generally decrease ALL labor compensations…”, you changed the sentences meaning.

The sentence as posted was “Decreasing or eliminating the federal minimum wage will generally decrease ALL labor compensations’ purchasing powers more than otherwise”.

Are you contending that editing another’s posted message to modify its meaning is of no consequence within a discussion?

Are you additionally contending the minimum wage is inconsequential to the market prices of labor?

What’s the point you were trying to make with the graph you provided? Do you contend the average wage would not differ from the graph if the minimum wage had differed?

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[expat_panama]

...you prefer rambling on about me while I prefer the facts... ...personality contests don't matter with economics any more than the magic wand makes a rabbit come out of a hat. They're both distractions intended to hide deceit...

Expat Panama, by truncating my sentence to you... ...Are you contending... ...Are you additionally... ...What’s the point you were trying...

OK, we got facts and we got personalities. Let's do facts first.

The idea that changes in the minimum wage should change other wages makes sense, but evidently it hasn't. The thing is that Fed minimums don't make employers pay labor more than they're worth, the law just owtlaws hiring labor worth less than the minimum.

As for the personality thing, I'll pass. It's well, boring. You're free to play with it more if you want but have to do it all by yourself but don't play with it too much because it can make you blind.

 

[editec]

This might be helpful

IN 78, when the minimum wage was $2.50. Working full time would mean you grossed $10,00 per year

in 1978, the MEDIAN FAMILY INCOME was $17.640 (http://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-120.pdf)

That means that a 1978 full time minimum wage job produced about 57% of the 1978 Median family income.

In 2009 the minium wage is $8 an hour amounting to an annual full time of $16,000 a year.

2009's median family income was $49,777 (Median Household Income History in the United States)

That means that today's minimum wage job amounts to about 32% of the today's median family income.

THAT is a significant change, folks.

So, for those of you dismissing the issue by saying "minimum wage was always a crappy wage?"

Yes that is true. In fact minimum wages are now nearly TWICE as crappy today, as they were thirty years ago.

Many of us here on this very board, probably remember SUPPORTIUNG OURSELVES on minimum wages back in the 70's or 80's, back when we were were young adults starting out with crappy jobs.

Now young adults just starting our with crappy jobs making minimum wage are incapable of supporting themselves.

THAT is the difference.

 

[GHook93]

Yes, by all means what America needs now is even cheaper labor to compete with the Chinese.

"Prosperity Through lower Wages!"

The jobs we are losing to Mexico and China are not minimum wage jobs, they are MANUFACTURING jobs. These jobs pay higher than minimum wage. So reducing minimum wage isn't going to help there either.

The jobs we are losing to India are IT support, consumer care, R & D and call center jobs. Even the customer care and call center pay higher than minimum wage.

The retail, fast food, bus boy, janitor etc service jobs is where minimum wage comes into play. These jobs aren't getting outsourced.

We need to compete in other ways:
(1) Over regulation and Union Thugery moves more jobs overseas then the minimum wage.
(2) Our corporate tax is the highest in the world.
(3) We need to craft our Free Trade agreements after CAFTA, not NAFTA. CAFTA is a success for all, NAFTA is a success for Mexico.
(4) Turn back the clock on the CLINTON administration's opening the door to China! WTF did he do that for?

 

[Supposn]

As I’ve suggested before, an economy is similar to a complex environment of many different living creatures. Causes and effects are not always empirical determinations.

I’m among those that accept as logical conclusions what some of you believe to be unfounded opinions.

The linked graph provided by ExPat Panama, indicates that ALL wages are generally affected by the minimum rate.
It’s logical to conclude that generally the proportional affect is inversely related to the wage’s amount.

Decreasing rather than increasing the purchasing power of our median wage by decreasing or eliminating our federal minimum wage laws will not improve our economy.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Supposn]

Yes, by all means what America needs now is even cheaper labor to compete with the Chinese.
"Prosperity Through lower Wages!"

The jobs we are losing to Mexico and China are not minimum wage jobs, they are MANUFACTURING jobs. These jobs pay higher than minimum wage. So reducing minimum wage isn't going to help there either.
The jobs we are losing to India are IT support, consumer care, R & D and call center jobs. Even the customer care and call center pay higher than minimum wage.

The retail, fast food, bus boy, janitor etc service jobs is where minimum wage comes into play. These jobs aren't getting outsourced.

We need to compete in other ways:
(1) Over regulation and Union Thugery moves more jobs overseas then the minimum wage.
(2) Our corporate tax is the highest in the world.
(3) We need to craft our Free Trade agreements after CAFTA, not NAFTA. CAFTA is a success for all, NAFTA is a success for Mexico.
(4) Turn back the clock on the CLINTON administration's opening the door to China! WTF did he do that for?

GHook93, regarding USA’s trade deficit of goods, refer to:

the topic “Warren Buffett's concept to significantly reduce USA's trade deficit”, last posted to on 06-15-2011, 01:28 PM.
or the World Wide Web site “ USA-Trade-Deficit.Blogspot.Com "
or Google “wikipedia, import certificate

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[expat_panama]

The linked graph provided by ExPat Panama, indicates that ALL wages are generally affected by the minimum rate.

Most people who work with numbers would take issue with your statement that this graph--

--"indicates that ALL wages are generally affected by the minimum rate." A comparison of average and minimum wage numbers can show whether a correlation exists but not causality, so the graph can't show whether one factor is the cause of an affect with the other. On the other hand, if a correlation is not there then the comparison proves there is no resulting affect and therefore no cause.

The only correlation we got is that generally over the decades both go up. An alternate cause is inflation that also generally goes up. The fact that minimum wages go up in severe steps spaced many years apart while overall wages increase continuously regardless of minimum wage levels, show there is no significant correlation. If you want we could even do a regression analysis to actually measure the lack of correlation.

Bottom line: minimum wages don't affect overall wages in any measurable way.

 

[Supposn]

The linked graph provided by ExPat Panama, indicates that ALL wages are generally affected by the minimum rate.

Most people who work with numbers would take issue with your statement that this graph

--"indicates that ALL wages are generally affected by the minimum rate." A comparison of average and minimum wage numbers can show whether a correlation exists but not causality, so the graph can't show whether one factor is the cause of an affect with the other. On the other hand, if a correlation is not there then the comparison proves there is no resulting affect and therefore no cause.

The only correlation we got is that generally over the decades both go up. An alternate cause is inflation that also generally goes up. The fact that minimum wages go up in severe steps spaced many years apart while overall wages increase continuously regardless of minimum wage levels, show there is no significant correlation. If you want we could even do a regression analysis to actually measure the lack of correlation.

Bottom line: minimum wages don't affect overall wages in any measurable way.

Expat Panama, for comparison purposes minimum and average wages both expressed in the same actual or adjusted U.S. dollars’ amounts will suffice.

I concluded from graph lines that both minimum and average wages were expressed in actual dollars because the graph does not indicate the losses of average and minimum wages’ purchasing powers during periods of George W. Bush’s administrations. That’s why I’m an advocate of a minimum rate annually cost of living adjusted.

It would have been more informative if the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics had reported the median rather than the average wage but both are determined primarily by the labor market.

The timing and extent of the minimum rate is entirely the U.S. Congress’s political determination and it is not determined by the labor market. Certainly the average wage did not cause the minimum rate to increase.

The close relationship between the two graph lines lead me to suppose that (although the average wage does not determine the minimum rate, the minimum rate does affect the average wage. As I stated, the minimum in aggregate affects all wage scales to some extent.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[sjay]

Nice try edi but $2.50 per 40 hour workweek is about $5,000 per yr. not $10,000,so that brings down the median average to 28.3% not better but a little worse, now are you willing to admit you are wrong?

 

[ReginaG]

With this kind of economy, pity are those people who are earning minimum and below minimum wage.

 

[expat_panama]

With this kind of economy, pity are those people who are earning minimum and below minimum wage.

Earning money is not a bad thing. Diversity of the worth of different people's labor is good. Minimum wage laws are bad because they outlaw hiring labor worth less than the minimum.

 

[editec]

Minimum wage sets the FLOOR for hourly rates.

Child labor laws set the standards for who can work.

If you want to see what life is like without those, read the US history of the early post industrial age.

THAT is where some people want us to return.