Methane worse than CO2

[Screaming Eagle]

Two very invalid asumptions here.

One, that the cost of electricity from the utility is not going to rise over this period. What does that past show on that issue?

Two, that the cost of solar is not going to come down significantly in the near future. Not only come down significantly, but the efficiency of the panels will more than double. New technologies are coming on line as we post.

As electric and plug in hybrids become increasingly more common, having one's own source of fuel for their vehicle reduces the payback time significantly.

BYD announces F3DM hybrid and e6 EV models for US Market in 2011

So now you are a soothsayer? I can sit here and make shit up all day long too, I don't do it because I'm not an asshole.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Well, I'm going to present a synopsis of the video because it is very powerful testimony. CO2 might well have acted as a primary warming agent, albeit in massive doses that took 500,000 years to take effect.

After New Year I will post my precise of the testimony.

If you watch it, it's like watching one of the Gambinos testify at his murder trial about why his favorite weapon is a small caliber revolver. The testimony is very damaging to the Warmers case and should seal their fate.

Frank, what you are talking about is the normal outgassing of volcanoes and the weathering of rock.

The response time of the temperature of the atmosphere to a rapid increase in GHGs in measured in a few decades. And Dr. Alley's lecture addresses that. As anyone that watch's it can easily see.

Here is the site,

2009 AGU Fall Meeting: Featured Lectures

The lecture is the Bjerksen lecture, A23A.

For anyone interested in science, there are many good lectures on this site. For the whole lecture, download.

In lecture C24A, Dr. Hinzeman presents a good deal of information on some of the alarming signs of the present warming in the Artic.

Airplane ConTrails are melting the Ice Caps you Crazy Fuck, Read your own fake science from AGU once in a while

http://www.usmessageboard.com/envir...l-melting-the-polar-ice-caps.html#post1856910

 

[Old Rocks]

Two very invalid asumptions here.

One, that the cost of electricity from the utility is not going to rise over this period. What does that past show on that issue?

Two, that the cost of solar is not going to come down significantly in the near future. Not only come down significantly, but the efficiency of the panels will more than double. New technologies are coming on line as we post.

As electric and plug in hybrids become increasingly more common, having one's own source of fuel for their vehicle reduces the payback time significantly.

BYD announces F3DM hybrid and e6 EV models for US Market in 2011

So now you are a soothsayer? I can sit here and make shit up all day long too, I don't do it because I'm not an asshole.

Care to show me an area where electricity prices are going down in the US?

Your denial of being an asshole speaks for itself.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Two very invalid asumptions here.

One, that the cost of electricity from the utility is not going to rise over this period. What does that past show on that issue?

Two, that the cost of solar is not going to come down significantly in the near future. Not only come down significantly, but the efficiency of the panels will more than double. New technologies are coming on line as we post.

As electric and plug in hybrids become increasingly more common, having one's own source of fuel for their vehicle reduces the payback time significantly.

BYD announces F3DM hybrid and e6 EV models for US Market in 2011

So now you are a soothsayer? I can sit here and make shit up all day long too, I don't do it because I'm not an asshole.

Care to show me an area where electricity prices are going down in the US?

Your denial of being an asshole speaks for itself.

In Texas the electric prices are the same as what I was paying 10 years ago. You don't know that electric prices will go up, you don't know that solar panels will become more effective or more inexpensive, they're guesses. Do I think solar panels will get better and be cheaper? Sure. Do I know it for certain? No.

I don't understand your original point anyway. If solar panels are going to work twice as good for half the price and will be hitting the shelves soon, then we shouldn't buy them now. If electric prices are going to go up then we should buy. Either way it's gambling based on what you think is going to happen, and none of it is certain.

 

[Old Rocks]

So now you are a soothsayer? I can sit here and make shit up all day long too, I don't do it because I'm not an asshole.

Care to show me an area where electricity prices are going down in the US?

Your denial of being an asshole speaks for itself.

In Texas the electric prices are the same as what I was paying 10 years ago. You don't know that electric prices will go up, you don't know that solar panels will become more effective or more inexpensive, they're guesses. Do I think solar panels will get better and be cheaper? Sure. Do I know it for certain? No.

I don't understand your original point anyway. If solar panels are going to work twice as good for half the price and will be hitting the shelves soon, then we shouldn't buy them now. If electric prices are going to go up then we should buy. Either way it's gambling based on what you think is going to happen, and none of it is certain.

Electricity in Texas - Houston Electricity Prices and Rates

Houston Electricity Prices and Rates Blog
Electricity in Texas
January 1, 2002, Senate Bill 7 brought the deregulation of electricity to Texas. The outcome was that the majority of Texans are now able to choose their own electricity provider. Since 2002 an estimated 85% of commercial and industrial customers have switched power providers at least once. Residential customers have followed suit as well with approximately 40% of eligible Texas households having switched from their incumbent providers. This is a huge transition considering that Texas is the largest electricity market in the country and falls between Great Britain and Spain as the world's 11th largest electricity market. The initial goal of deregulation was to increase competition and lower prices. In order to foster this competitive environment, the Public Utility Commission required that the larger incumbent electricity companies like TXU and Reliant Energy provide their customers with the regulated "Price to Beat" rate. The "Price to Beat" was a pricing floor established to allow profitability to new, smaller market competitors. This opened the door for competitors to come in and establish themselves as lower cost providers. In 2007 this floor was lifted leaving an extremely competitive market.

The question for some is whether deregulation has achieved its twofold goal of increased competition and lower prices. The increase in competition is not question however many do question the state of electricity pricing since the advent of deregulation. Since 2002, residential electricity rates have risen more than 7 times. The pricing increase from 2002 to 2004 was 43%. This is significant but at the same time, the cost of inputs to generate electricity (natural gas) increased by 63%. Electricity customers did not have to bear the full increase of these costs due to creative innovation in generation and market strategies

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Care to show me an area where electricity prices are going down in the US?

Your denial of being an asshole speaks for itself.

In Texas the electric prices are the same as what I was paying 10 years ago. You don't know that electric prices will go up, you don't know that solar panels will become more effective or more inexpensive, they're guesses. Do I think solar panels will get better and be cheaper? Sure. Do I know it for certain? No.

I don't understand your original point anyway. If solar panels are going to work twice as good for half the price and will be hitting the shelves soon, then we shouldn't buy them now. If electric prices are going to go up then we should buy. Either way it's gambling based on what you think is going to happen, and none of it is certain.

Electricity in Texas - Houston Electricity Prices and Rates

Houston Electricity Prices and Rates Blog
Electricity in Texas
January 1, 2002, Senate Bill 7 brought the deregulation of electricity to Texas. The outcome was that the majority of Texans are now able to choose their own electricity provider. Since 2002 an estimated 85% of commercial and industrial customers have switched power providers at least once. Residential customers have followed suit as well with approximately 40% of eligible Texas households having switched from their incumbent providers. This is a huge transition considering that Texas is the largest electricity market in the country and falls between Great Britain and Spain as the world's 11th largest electricity market. The initial goal of deregulation was to increase competition and lower prices. In order to foster this competitive environment, the Public Utility Commission required that the larger incumbent electricity companies like TXU and Reliant Energy provide their customers with the regulated "Price to Beat" rate. The "Price to Beat" was a pricing floor established to allow profitability to new, smaller market competitors. This opened the door for competitors to come in and establish themselves as lower cost providers. In 2007 this floor was lifted leaving an extremely competitive market.

The question for some is whether deregulation has achieved its twofold goal of increased competition and lower prices. The increase in competition is not question however many do question the state of electricity pricing since the advent of deregulation. Since 2002, residential electricity rates have risen more than 7 times. The pricing increase from 2002 to 2004 was 43%. This is significant but at the same time, the cost of inputs to generate electricity (natural gas) increased by 63%. Electricity customers did not have to bear the full increase of these costs due to creative innovation in generation and market strategies

I don't know who wrote that article or when but they quite overtly appear to be trying to sell a service(it's at the end of the article). I don't believe salesmen about anything. As if it isn't already lacking in credibility, the fact that it never once mentions the website powertochoose.org exposes it as a complete joke. Practically everyone in Texas knows the web address due to it's marketing campaign here. You can go there and check the rates for yourself. Of course you have to put in a zip code but I'm sure you can find one.

Currently rates are as low as 8.5 cents per kwh, I have a locked in plan for 10 cents per kwh with no fees(locked for the next 22 months, by the way), which is less than I paid 10 years ago. No stupid article is going to tell me any different than what I already know, which is that 10 years ago I was paying about 10 cents per kwh PLUS monthly fees of about $15, which makes my electricity now less expensive than it was.

 

[Old Rocks]

So now you are a soothsayer? I can sit here and make shit up all day long too, I don't do it because I'm not an asshole.

Care to show me an area where electricity prices are going down in the US?

Your denial of being an asshole speaks for itself.

In Texas the electric prices are the same as what I was paying 10 years ago. You don't know that electric prices will go up, you don't know that solar panels will become more effective or more inexpensive, they're guesses. Do I think solar panels will get better and be cheaper? Sure. Do I know it for certain? No.

I don't understand your original point anyway. If solar panels are going to work twice as good for half the price and will be hitting the shelves soon, then we shouldn't buy them now. If electric prices are going to go up then we should buy. Either way it's gambling based on what you think is going to happen, and none of it is certain.

So you say.

 

[NYcarbineer]

With all the hoopla about CO2 and the pending disastrous for the economy legislation that will be crammed down our throats to curb CO2 emissions, it seems we are ignoring a larger more easily remedied piece of the puzzle.

Robert Watson And Mohamed El-Ashry:A Fast, Cheap Way to Cool the Planet - WSJ.com

This month's Copenhagen talks focused on the leading climate change culprit: carbon dioxide. But reversing global temperature increases by reducing carbon emissions will take many decades, if not centuries. Even if the largest cuts in CO2 contemplated in Copenhagen are implemented, it simply will not reverse the melting of ice already occurring in the most sensitive areas, including the rapid disappearance of glaciers in Tibet, the Arctic and Latin America.

So what can we do to effectively buffer global warming? The most obvious strategy is to make an all-out effort to reduce emissions of methane.

Sometimes called the "other greenhouse gas," methane is responsible for 75% as much warming as carbon dioxide measured over any given 20 years. Unlike carbon dioxide, which remains in the atmosphere for hundreds of years, methane lasts only a decade but packs a powerful punch while it's there.

Methane's short life makes it especially interesting in the short run, given the pace of climate change. If we need to suppress temperature quickly in order to preserve glaciers, reducing methane can make an immediate impact. Compared to the massive requirements necessary to reduce CO2, cutting methane requires only modest investment. Where we stop methane emissions, cooling follows within a decade, not centuries. That could make the difference for many fragile systems on the brink.

Yet global discussions about climate and policies to date have not focused on methane. Methane is formally in the "basket" of six gases targeted by the 1997 Kyoto Protocol. But its value is counted as if it has the same lifetime as carbon dioxide.

This ignores its much larger, near-term potential. As a result, methane represents only about 15% of the projects under the Kyoto Protocol's emissions offset program. And it is not a major focus of climate protection programs in any nation.

This is huge missed opportunity, and not just for the climate. Methane also forms ozone, the smog that severely damages food crops and kills tens of thousands each year by worsening asthma, emphysema and other respiratory diseases

Captured methane gas can be used as a clean energy source, contributing to energy security and diversification as well as reducing damaging black carbon (soot) and CO2 emissions. Solving the methane problem will lead to a higher quality of life by cleaning up city and agricultural wastes and odors, and curbing air pollution from dirty stoves and local industries. It will also create local jobs in construction and operation of methane-abating equipment.

Methane comes from a variety of sources: landfills, sewage streams, coal mines, oil and gas drilling operations, agricultural wastes, and cattle farms. For most of these sources, relatively cheap "end of pipe" technologies are available to collect methane and convert it to useful energy rather than venting it to the atmosphere.

These technologies include drilling into coal seams before mining to release and collect methane (this also reduces the risk of mine explosions, which kill hundreds of miners per year); depositing manure into "biogas" digesting tanks where pipes collect methane produced from decomposition; and covering and lining open landfills, shunting methane into a collection pipe.

In most cases, the collected methane can be used to run a village- or city-scale power plant. The Institute for Applied Systems Analysis and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimate that as much as 40% of the world's projected methane could be reduced at less than $60 dollars per ton of carbon equivalent. Some methane projects even have "negative" cost, as the value of the captured gas exceeds the investment.

Experience has shown that even with modest incentives, methane projects, which are typically small scale, can move fast. Timberline Energy, a U.S. company, reports an expected construction time of six to eight months for landfill gas projects once financing is secured. And the United Nations Clean Development Mechanism estimates that setting up biogas projects can take as little as five months. Hundreds of shovel-ready projects around the world are ready to go, but are stalled because of uncertainty over future carbon rules.

This is why on Dec. 11, along with a distinguished group of colleagues from the scientific and financial communities, we proposed the creation of a Global Methane Fund to address the specific measures needed to get methane projects off the ground now. This includes a guaranteed price floor for methane projects to allay uncertainty over future carbon prices.

Funded by governments and private foundations, a Global Methane Fund with only $100 million to $200 million could leverage tens of billions of dollars for other projects, which will have a quick and measurable cooling effect in the Arctic and elsewhere. Scientific studies, such as the EPA's June 2006 report, "Global Mitigation of Non-CO2 Greenhouse Gases," conservatively indicate that we could eliminate 1.3 gigatons of annual CO2 equivalent emissions—that's half the U.S. power industry's emissions—just by targeting landfills, coal mines, and oil and gas leaks.

Such a fund would benefit melting glaciers in the Arctic, and in the Andean and Himalayan mountains. And it would demonstrate to the world that we can do something to quickly slow climate change.

We need to get moving to cool the planet's temperature. Methane is the most effective place for us to start.

Any guesses a to why our oh so smart government is ignoring this option?

The answer is simple.

Methane reduction can be done quickly cheaply and actually create a profit for private citizens while having a measurable effect on climate in the short run where as CO2 legislation requires higher taxes and more government agencies to exert more controls on the population and would take many decades of higher taxes and government control to see any results..

Who says it's being ignored? My electric co-op is building a 25 million kwh/year plant on a local landfill.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Care to show me an area where electricity prices are going down in the US?

Your denial of being an asshole speaks for itself.

In Texas the electric prices are the same as what I was paying 10 years ago. You don't know that electric prices will go up, you don't know that solar panels will become more effective or more inexpensive, they're guesses. Do I think solar panels will get better and be cheaper? Sure. Do I know it for certain? No.

I don't understand your original point anyway. If solar panels are going to work twice as good for half the price and will be hitting the shelves soon, then we shouldn't buy them now. If electric prices are going to go up then we should buy. Either way it's gambling based on what you think is going to happen, and none of it is certain.

So you say.

You can get electricity for under 9 cents here. Are you really implying that it was less 10 years ago?

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Darnit! I forgot to factor in inflation. That means that electricity is about 40% less expensive now than it was 10 years ago.