mccain pulls out of MI

[xsited1]

I hope Hillary doesn't go 'Vince Foster' on Obama.

 

[sealybobo]

Well at least the folks in Fl. were lucky enough to have one Senator that voted no. I'm pretty sure Bill Nelson voted No. Our Senators Kyl and McCain both voted yes, and I was watching the news last night here and ASU conducted a Poll on the rescue plan and over 81% of people here in Arizona don't support it. So much for listening to the people that you represent.

Now maybe you understand how Democrats felt signing that bullshit FISA bill Bush forced us to sign. Remember that scare? "If they don't sign it, I can't fight terrorism! Why won't the Democrats give us the tools we need to spy on our political opponents, I mean the enemy".

 

[Ravi]

Well at least the folks in Fl. were lucky enough to have one Senator that voted no. I'm pretty sure Bill Nelson voted No. Our Senators Kyl and McCain both voted yes, and I was watching the news last night here and ASU conducted a Poll on the rescue plan and over 81% of people here in Arizona don't support it. So much for listening to the people that you represent.

Yes, Nelson voted no. I was surprised, they both voted the opposite of what I expected. There are a lot of retirees here, including my parents, and I think even though most of them are horrified by the bailout, they want their retirement checks to keep rolling in.

 

[sealybobo]

wow. didnt see this coming

At least McCain pulls out. Bush didn't pull out or wear a condom the 8 years he fucked us.

 

[jreeves]

I didn't either. I suspect it means his money is drying up. That could change after tonight if Palin does ok. So I'm not sure it's a death knell there. It doesn't look good, though.

Remember Mccain is taking public financing? Obama is the one who opted out, so he could get soft money.

 

[Navy1960]

McCain would have won Michigan had he picked Romney too. Idiot.

Stabinow, Levin & Granholm are doing everything they can in light of the fact that the Federal Republicans have given tax breaks to companies for leaving the United States. I'd like to see how you would handle that.

So Granholm at least cut spending and it attracting movies and green jobs. Plus we are seeing as the Big 3 goes, so does the National Economy, so the Democratic Congress just gave the Big 3 billions to help them. That's something Bush refused to do.

He met with the exec's of the Big 3 one time right after the 04 election. He didn't do shit for them. If you think the Big 3 can complete on an uneven playing field, think again.

So we here in Michigan know what is going on. The Dems aren't killing manufacturing and unions, the GOP are.

PS. The two state houses were controlled by Republicans. The Dems took control of one of those houses in 2004 or 2006, i forgot. But we still have to deal with Republicans, who pull the same shit that the Federal Republcans pull. I went to high school with one of them. His name is Craig Derouche. He was the speaker of the house when the GOP controlled that particular house but now he's the minority leader. And I hope he stays in the minority. Nice guy, I just don't agree with him. Actually, he may be one of those "good" Conservatives. He sent a pamphlet to my home once and everything on it made sense to me. Hopefully he isn't all talk like the Federal Republicans.

Seriously, everything they say they are about, they did NONE of those things while in office. I remember Bush Sr. didn't keep one campaign promise. And this Bush is the biggest hypocrite. In my mind, he is a criminal and he and Chaney should be in jail.

I 've decided that it's just your personality and you can't help yourself with the unkind comments everytime I see your posting now. As far as Romney, even though he has that Mi. connection you seriously think, that would have helped McCain carry MI. when you know Obama is pretty much going to carry the entire city of Detriot and Ann Arbor and Lansing. I don't think even Romeny would have been able to help him in MI.

As for your gov. what is Mi. now second highest in the country in unemployment behind Mississippi since she took office? You blame this on the Bush Administration because the automotive industry has pretty much abandoned MI.? Now I don't blame the union worker so much as I blame the union management for not being flexible enough to let these automobile companies compete on World Wide level. How long did it take GM to negotiate a bloated pension fund , years? You need only look at GM , Ford, and Chrysler for losing ground to Toyota and Honda , poor engineering and an inability to change their product lines to compete. That massive influx of what 25 Billion was it to come to the rescue , do you think that it will bring all those MFG. jobs back to MI.? I doubt it.

Now there is a bright future there in MI. with green technology like the Chevy Volt and especially Fuel Cell type vehicles if the Big three will got off their backsides and bring them to market. They have already lost ground in the hybrid market so much to toyota and honda and now the honda FCV will be out next year. So hopefully the Chevy Volt will help restore the economy there. Shooting movies in MI. won't effect your unemployment numbers too much , so while it's great exposure it's not much in the way of real jobs.

You do realize that the Big three are almost to the point where they employ less Americans in the Auto industry than toyota, kia, and honda don't you? It would seem to me that if the unions really wanted to keep their people employed and your Gov. wanted to attract MFG. to MI. then they would make it worthwhile to do so. It's damn sure not the fault of the average union guy who goes to work everyday. It is however the fault of the people that represent them and a stale automotive company that keeps pumping out gas guzzling trucks and SUV's when the market doesn't want them any longer. So if your looking to place blame on someone I suggest you start there.

I will grant you this much though, the Bush Administration could have done more to level the world wide playing field when it comes to imports, However, thats a catch 22 now because you have the BIG 3 making fully 60% of their product outside the US now. Let me cite you a story since you were kind enough to tell me one of your's. you know doubt have heard of kia, well kia was looking for a place to build a plant in the US three years ago and decided to place it in Al. right down the road from Hyundia, Benz, and BMW. The new plant will employ over 4200 people and the starting pay is 15 dollars and hour with health benefits. One of the reasons these plants move to a state like Al. or Tx. or Az. is its right to work laws and their willingness to provide tax breaks to get them to come there. So in all honesty sealy, do you think the UAW wouls accept such a plant in MI. with the same salary for 4200 people?

 

[WillowTree]

Well at least the folks in Fl. were lucky enough to have one Senator that voted no. I'm pretty sure Bill Nelson voted No. Our Senators Kyl and McCain both voted yes, and I was watching the news last night here and ASU conducted a Poll on the rescue plan and over 81% of people here in Arizona don't support it. So much for listening to the people that you represent.

Bill Nelson absolutely voted NO. Martinez is an idiot. I hope he has his retirement plans all made out.

 

[Navy1960]

Now maybe you understand how Democrats felt signing that bullshit FISA bill Bush forced us to sign. Remember that scare? "If they don't sign it, I can't fight terrorism! Why won't the Democrats give us the tools we need to spy on our political opponents, I mean the enemy".

sealy let me set you straight on something, you operate under the mistaken impression that all republicans support George Bush. While some hard core Republicans might, this one doesn't, George Bush has been an disaster as a CIC and manager. As for the FISA Bill . I look at it this way, if the democrats were so opposed to it as a general rule then they should have done something about it. I do however, get pretty upset when a person that represents you does not listen to the expressed will of those they represent. I'm sure if FISA is a huge issue for the democrats then if Obama gets elected he will revisit it. If I'm not mistaken I believe he has stated he is going too.

 

[Navy1960]

Yes, Nelson voted no. I was surprised, they both voted the opposite of what I expected. There are a lot of retirees here, including my parents, and I think even though most of them are horrified by the bailout, they want their retirement checks to keep rolling in.

We have the same number of retiree's here and can tell you the feelings are not much different. I imagine the only difference between Fl. and Az. retiree's is the golf carts. I was surprised by Mel Martinez though, I thought for sure he would have voted no on this.

 

[CA95380]

the machines are rigged already

Machine's rigged? lol How about McCain is "surrendering" .... state by state? lol

I can see it all now. Duck will be the first one to post ... after Obama wins.!! "Chads! There were hanging Chads! We got robbed!!! lol

The History of Voting Machines - Chad

 

[Chris]

Obama might be the next FDR instead.... Bush is Hoover....

and I said a few days ago that I think McCain is intentionally trying to lose this election and this just adds more evidence to my theory.

Bush is Hoover, Obama is FDR.

 

[Navy1960]

Bush is Hoover, Obama is FDR.

Is this a conspiracy? Obama is Fred Romero? I knew someone in the Navy by that name and all this time I thought he was a bad guy. j/k

 

[Chris]

We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

After eight years of Bush trying to get us to be afraid of 19 guys with boxcutters, we need a change.

 

[sealybobo]

I 've decided that it's just your personality and you can't help yourself with the unkind comments everytime I see your posting now. As far as Romney, even though he has that Mi. connection you seriously think, that would have helped McCain carry MI. when you know Obama is pretty much going to carry the entire city of Detriot and Ann Arbor and Lansing. I don't think even Romeny would have been able to help him in MI.

As for your gov. what is Mi. now second highest in the country in unemployment behind Mississippi since she took office? You blame this on the Bush Administration because the automotive industry has pretty much abandoned MI.? Now I don't blame the union worker so much as I blame the union management for not being flexible enough to let these automobile companies compete on World Wide level. How long did it take GM to negotiate a bloated pension fund , years? You need only look at GM , Ford, and Chrysler for losing ground to Toyota and Honda , poor engineering and an inability to change their product lines to compete. That massive influx of what 25 Billion was it to come to the rescue , do you think that it will bring all those MFG. jobs back to MI.? I doubt it.

Now there is a bright future there in MI. with green technology like the Chevy Volt and especially Fuel Cell type vehicles if the Big three will got off their backsides and bring them to market. They have already lost ground in the hybrid market so much to toyota and honda and now the honda FCV will be out next year. So hopefully the Chevy Volt will help restore the economy there. Shooting movies in MI. won't effect your unemployment numbers too much , so while it's great exposure it's not much in the way of real jobs.

You do realize that the Big three are almost to the point where they employ less Americans in the Auto industry than toyota, kia, and honda don't you? It would seem to me that if the unions really wanted to keep their people employed and your Gov. wanted to attract MFG. to MI. then they would make it worthwhile to do so. It's damn sure not the fault of the average union guy who goes to work everyday. It is however the fault of the people that represent them and a stale automotive company that keeps pumping out gas guzzling trucks and SUV's when the market doesn't want them any longer. So if your looking to place blame on someone I suggest you start there.

I will grant you this much though, the Bush Administration could have done more to level the world wide playing field when it comes to imports, However, thats a catch 22 now because you have the BIG 3 making fully 60% of their product outside the US now. Let me cite you a story since you were kind enough to tell me one of your's. you know doubt have heard of kia, well kia was looking for a place to build a plant in the US three years ago and decided to place it in Al. right down the road from Hyundia, Benz, and BMW. The new plant will employ over 4200 people and the starting pay is 15 dollars and hour with health benefits. One of the reasons these plants move to a state like Al. or Tx. or Az. is its right to work laws and their willingness to provide tax breaks to get them to come there. So in all honesty sealy, do you think the UAW wouls accept such a plant in MI. with the same salary for 4200 people?

Wow! So much to reply to.

No, I don't think the big three can compete with foreign companies down south, because they don't pay as well. I'm for increasing labor's wages. And after the bailout, we'll all need a pay raise to keep up with inflation.

Keep in mind that unions achieved every worker right that we have and our wages are high because of their pay.

Yes, I'm aware that michigan is hurt the most because we owned manufacturing, not because of taxes. The gop will cry about taxes until thy pay zero taxes. is that what you want? Zero taxes or they leave the country? Then the burden falls on us. I understand everything that you are saying. I just don't think you hear what i'm saying. You are smart and know the facts, clearly, but I don't think you get what the conservatives are pushing for. The rich do not pay taxes.

And its not all about taxes. You'll pay more taxes in Michigan than in W. Virginia, but who has the higher stsndard of living? Who has better roads, schools, more police, more wealth, etc?

Ps. Detroit had over 2 million residents pre Bush. Now they have less than a million. That's a lot less votes for Obama. Until this market crash, mccain had a slight lead in MI.

Pps. Ohio has manufacturing and was controlled by the gop yet manufacturing is leaving them too. Why?

And firms that moved to texas and arizona and atlanta are now going overseas and outsourcing jobs to india. Do you really think they'll save your jobs when they can get it for $5 in mexico?

And meanwhile, they can't pay you $35 hr but they can pay a ceo $20 million for being a failure?

You seem to know a lot but you are missing the big picture.

 

[sealybobo]

sealy let me set you straight on something, you operate under the mistaken impression that all republicans support George Bush. While some hard core Republicans might, this one doesn't, George Bush has been an disaster as a CIC and manager. As for the FISA Bill . I look at it this way, if the democrats were so opposed to it as a general rule then they should have done something about it. I do however, get pretty upset when a person that represents you does not listen to the expressed will of those they represent. I'm sure if FISA is a huge issue for the democrats then if Obama gets elected he will revisit it. If I'm not mistaken I believe he has stated he is going too.

Can you understand my not believing you when all of you defended bush until an election year? And if you vote for him because you think he is the lesser of two evils, then I guess you like him enough, huh?

I watched rudy, mccain, romney, huckabee and brownback all distance themselves from bush in january 08. Before that, they defended everything. All the spending, the war, stem cell, not catching bin ladin, spying on us, torture, unfair tax breaks to the rich, etc.

So I hope you understanding me not believing you. When did you realize Bush was a phony? When will you realize Mccain is the same? Answer, Too Late.

So did you approve of the Gop congress from 2000 - 2006? What didn't you like about them? Oh, you just don't like bush?

Why do I get the feeling this is a con job to show voters that their state reps are "true conservatives" by getting the dems to vote yes and the reps vote against bush. Very smart, but for some reason it isn't working.

 

[sealybobo]

You know what? I'm the fucking conservative because I told you all bush's spending would eventually lead to inflation and higher taxes. You "true conservatives" didn't care as long as your immediate taxes weren't raised. you still don't seem to give a shit that we're spending $20 billion a month in iraq when BUSH AND CHANEY said Iraq oil would pay for the war. Iraq has $100 billion in the bank and YOU continue to borrow from China to fund the occupation. Forget about the argument about whether we should be there. Explain to me why you don't bitch about the bill.

So don't tell me you don't like bush. I don't buy it.

Where were your consevative reps on iraq spending?

 

[Navy1960]

Wow! So much to reply to.

No, I don't think the big three can compete with foreign companies down south, because they don't pay as well. I'm for increasing labor's wages. And after the bailout, we'll all need a pay raise to keep up with inflation.

Keep in mind that unions achieved every worker right that we have and our wages are high because of their pay.

Yes, I'm aware that michigan is hurt the most because we owned manufacturing, not because of taxes. The gop will cry about taxes until thy pay zero taxes. is that what you want? Zero taxes or they leave the country? Then the burden falls on us. I understand everything that you are saying. I just don't think you hear what i'm saying. You are smart and know the facts, clearly, but I don't think you get what the conservatives are pushing for. The rich do not pay taxes.

And its not all about taxes. You'll pay more taxes in Michigan than in W. Virginia, but who has the higher stsndard of living? Who has better roads, schools, more police, more wealth, etc?

Ps. Detroit had over 2 million residents pre Bush. Now they have less than a million. That's a lot less votes for Obama. Until this market crash, mccain had a slight lead in MI.

Pps. Ohio has manufacturing and was controlled by the gop yet manufacturing is leaving them too. Why?

And firms that moved to texas and arizona and atlanta are now going overseas and outsourcing jobs to india. Do you really think they'll save your jobs when they can get it for $5 in mexico?

And meanwhile, they can't pay you $35 hr but they can pay a ceo $20 million for being a failure?

You seem to know a lot but you are missing the big picture.

don't get me wrong sealy, I don't want the Big 3 to fail , hell sealy, I'm a a big supporter of Boeing and am going through a few things with the EADS contract. However, what I was trying to get at is this, its simply incorrect to assume that a party is completely responsible for MI. woes. I agree however that CEO salaries should be tied to performance, but you know who approves those? the board does, and the stock holders vote for the board members. The real issue is the average stock holder signs a proxy statement to have someone vote for them and never attends a stockholders meeting when they do have a vote and a say so. So what happens? some person that represents the companies interests votes for them and your CEO's get their 20 million dollar salary. In order for the Big 3 to compete you have the right solution go green all the way, and then when they do, do it in such a way where the employee's have a vested interest in the companies future and not some guy who lives in Bloomfield and could care less about where the cars are built. As for tax cuts, I am more of the realistic type when it comes to them, personally I think the govt. can't cut taxes for anyone at the moment and I will tell you why, I think the deficit is too high and now with theis 850 billion dollar monster adding another Trillion to it , cutting taxes for anyone just is not going to work. The other thing about taxes 90% of the taxes are paid by 40% of the wage earners. So when you say raise taxes on the Wealthy whos to say what is wealthy. Let me give you an example, some guy owns a little business with one Airport Van he makes 267,000.00 year but thats what his business makes is he wealthy? See what I mean, if people really want taxes to be fair make the percentage of taxes people pay be the same all the way across the board. The more you make the more they take. 1,000,000.00 @20% is a whole lot different than the person who makes 100,000.00 @20%. MFg. is leaving Ohio for the same reasons I stated above, too sealy. take a look at what happened to the Big 3 back during the 70's pretty much the same thing. They failed to respond fast enough to peoples changing need based cost and got caught with massive amounts of inventory. This time however, so did toyota and some others .

 

[sealybobo]

And I'm sick of people saying unions are why companies are going down south. I know a company is going to go for cheaper laber if they are allowed. Ok so it should be ok for a company to go down south if they can get cheaper labor, but they should not be allowed to move to mexico or hire phone people from india.

I understand companies want to maximize their profits, but not at the middle classes expense.

This is why there is no such thing as free markets because governments set the rules. They shouldn't force companies to hire union workers up north but the employees down south should be able to organize the day $15 hr doesn't cut it anymore.

Don't expect us to rush to your aide. At that point we'll give them tax breaks to steal them back.

I don't have all the answers, I just know the big 3 made a profit in the past. And it isn't only the unions fault that they aren't profitable. I get the feeling they are going broke at home to break the unions because they're doing great in asia, and they didn't see the gas crisis coming?

ps. Why are your wages stagnant, why are your insurance costs going up? We aren't in unions. The answer is that companies will keep your wages low as long as they can get away with it.

 

[Navy1960]

Can you understand my not believing you when all of you defended bush until an election year? And if you vote for him because you think he is the lesser of two evils, then I guess you like him enough, huh?

I watched rudy, mccain, romney, huckabee and brownback all distance themselves from bush in january 08. Before that, they defended everything. All the spending, the war, stem cell, not catching bin ladin, spying on us, torture, unfair tax breaks to the rich, etc.

So I hope you understanding me not believing you. When did you realize Bush was a phony? When will you realize Mccain is the same? Answer, Too Late.

So did you approve of the Gop congress from 2000 - 2006? What didn't you like about them? Oh, you just don't like bush?

Why do I get the feeling this is a con job to show voters that their state reps are "true conservatives" by getting the dems to vote yes and the reps vote against bush. Very smart, but for some reason it isn't working.

Let me put it to you this way, from 2000 till now I voted for about half democrats and half republicans. Most of the sate reps I voted for were democrats, most of the house reps I voted for were republican. I am a member of the Arizona Republican Party and have been Republican all my adult life. I'm not the person you want an opinion from when it comes to congress, because, I am for term limits, I DO NOT think ANY of them have done a good job in the House or Senate and have not thought so for quite some time. Guess what I didn't vote for Bush in 04 and can tell you when I stopped supporting Bush it was when he appointed Don Rumsfeld as SecDef and would not fire him. So you try to paint people in black and white terms , us and them sealy and can tell you its my experience that most people are not that way, most people just want to believe that the people in Washington have their best intrests at heart and the label is secondary. The real problem has been that the people in Washington seem to have forgotten that people are not important but the label is!!

 

[Navy1960]

And I'm sick of people saying unions are why companies are going down south. I know a company is going to go for cheaper laber if they are allowed. Ok so it should be ok for a company to go down south if they can get cheaper labor, but they should not be allowed to move to mexico or hire phone people from india.

I understand companies want to maximize their profits, but not at the middle classes expense.

This is why there is no such thing as free markets because governments set the rules. They shouldn't force companies to hire union workers up north but the employees down south should be able to organize the day $15 hr doesn't cut it anymore.

Don't expect us to rush to your aide. At that point we'll give them tax breaks to steal them back.

I don't have all the answers, I just know the big 3 made a profit in the past. And it isn't only the unions fault that they aren't profitable. I get the feeling they are going broke at home to break the unions because they're doing great in asia, and they didn't see the gas crisis coming?

ps. Why are your wages stagnant, why are your insurance costs going up? We aren't in unions. The answer is that companies will keep your wages low as long as they can get away with it.

Your never going to stop companies from going to Mexico or Canada as long as NAFTA is in place and as far as that goes your not going to keep them from going to India until such time as you give a company a good enough reason to keep the from not going there, for example, Hire US workers get a tax break , if not you pay higher taxes. something along those lines. but an arbitrary tax increase across the board on companies is just goong to force them into looking for ways to save money.

The Asia Auto Makers by the way are not doing so great at the moment Toyota and Honda's sales were down last quarter 27 and 25 % Let me give you another example there. you no doubt have heard of the Toyota Tundra? 4 Years ago Toyota spent almost a billion dollar building a state of the art truck plant to make Tundras in San Antonio, Tx. Initially employed 1000's of people, till the gas crisis. Toyota a few months ago announced that they after only 3 years in operation were going to idle the plant because their truck inventory was so large they couldnt sell them and laid off 1000's. So MI. is not alone in this, and I completely agree if a plant wishes to organize theyn they should be allowed to do so, however I also believe that those that DO not want to be in the union should not be forced to pay union dues.