Massive car bomb in Haifa neutralized

[traderjoe17]

I'd be careful about who you refer to as Nazi's. The 'Palestinian' leader and Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al- Husseini, was Hitler's most avid supporter. He even recruited Muslim soldiers to join the Nazi's, and used similar tactics against the Jews in Palestine.

Where did I ever express support for "Haj Amin al- Husseini"?

So...you don't express support for the core principles of the 'Palestinian' 'Nationalist' movement of the 1930's - 1940's?

 

[Kalam]

I'd be careful about who you refer to as Nazi's. The 'Palestinian' leader and Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al- Husseini, was Hitler's most avid supporter. He even recruited Muslim soldiers to join the Nazi's, and used similar tactics against the Jews in Palestine.

Where did I ever express support for "Haj Amin al- Husseini"?

So...you don't express support for the core principles of the 'Palestinian' 'Nationalist' movement of the 1930's - 1940's?

'No,' not 'really.'

 

[Kalam]

Perhaps you should stop worrying so much over a term like "carpet-bombing" and understand the point I'm trying to make. If you used a different word, then the idea still stands. You believe Israel was indiscriminately firing at whoever they pleased, civilians or terrorists. By arguing that you may have used a different word, you are simply avoiding the argument.

It's difficult for me to believe that many IDF soldiers give a damn about whether or not they're killing Palestinian civilians when veterans of the debacle are wearing shit like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mJp5d3ffP8]YouTube - Israeli T-shirts mock Gaza killings - 23 March 2009[/ame]

How's that for the world's "most moral" military?

You're not looking for an analogy? Excellent response. Its no wonder that you have no rebuttal against that excellent analogy - its completely accurate.

I didn't even read it. I'm not interested in discussing analogies. The only "completely accurate" depiction of the current situation is the situation itself.

 

[traderjoe17]

Where did I ever express support for "Haj Amin al- Husseini"?

So...you don't express support for the core principles of the 'Palestinian' 'Nationalist' movement of the 1930's - 1940's?

'No,' not 'really.'

So, you do support Haj Amin al - Husseini?

 

[traderjoe17]

Perhaps you should stop worrying so much over a term like "carpet-bombing" and understand the point I'm trying to make. If you used a different word, then the idea still stands. You believe Israel was indiscriminately firing at whoever they pleased, civilians or terrorists. By arguing that you may have used a different word, you are simply avoiding the argument.

It's difficult for me to believe that many IDF soldiers give a damn about whether or not they're killing Palestinian civilians when veterans of the debacle are wearing shit like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mJp5d3ffP8]YouTube - Israeli T-shirts mock Gaza killings - 23 March 2009[/ame]

How's that for the world's "most moral" military?

You're not looking for an analogy? Excellent response. Its no wonder that you have no rebuttal against that excellent analogy - its completely accurate.

I didn't even read it. I'm not interested in discussing analogies. The only "completely accurate" depiction of the current situation is the situation itself.

Your argument that the IDF is not the most moral army in the world because of these shirts would be completely excellent...if these shirts had any connection whatsoever with the IDF.

 

[Kalam]

So...you don't express support for the core principles of the 'Palestinian' 'Nationalist' movement of the 1930's - 1940's?

'No,' not 'really.'

So, you do support Haj Amin al - Husseini?

No...

why would I...?

 

[DiveCon]

Perhaps you should stop worrying so much over a term like "carpet-bombing" and understand the point I'm trying to make. If you used a different word, then the idea still stands. You believe Israel was indiscriminately firing at whoever they pleased, civilians or terrorists. By arguing that you may have used a different word, you are simply avoiding the argument.

It's difficult for me to believe that many IDF soldiers give a damn about whether or not they're killing Palestinian civilians when veterans of the debacle are wearing shit like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mJp5d3ffP8]YouTube - Israeli T-shirts mock Gaza killings - 23 March 2009[/ame]

How's that for the world's "most moral" military?

You're not looking for an analogy? Excellent response. Its no wonder that you have no rebuttal against that excellent analogy - its completely accurate.

I didn't even read it. I'm not interested in discussing analogies. The only "completely accurate" depiction of the current situation is the situation itself.

Your argument that the IDF is not the most moral army in the world because of these shirts would be completely excellent...if these shirts had any connection whatsoever with the IDF.

yeah, looks like they were done by a private company


he's making a huge stretch to claim it was IDF

 

[Kalam]

Your argument that the IDF is not the most moral army in the world because of these shirts would be completely excellent...if these shirts had any connection whatsoever with the IDF.

yeah, looks like they were done by a private company

he's making a huge stretch to claim it was IDF

Naw, the IDF just couldn't do anything wrong, could they? Why can't you all accept that they're capable of wrongdoing? Seriously, y'all, don't you ever think you're hitting the Kool-Aid a bit too hard? Even IDF officials have admitted that their own soldiers had the shirts made. They gave them a nice (verbal) slap on the wrist.

Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 - Haaretz - Israel News
Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Killing Palestinian Women And Children During Gaza Offensive | World News | Sky News
Middle East News | Israeli army t-shirts mock Palestinian deaths
Israeli soldiers&squo; T-shirts show pregnant woman about to be shot | Herald Sun
The Associated Press: Israel military condemns anti-Palestinian T-shirts
U.N. report condemns Israel for Gaza operation - CNN.com
UN accuses Israeli troops of Gaza human rights abuses - Times Online

 

[DiveCon]

Your argument that the IDF is not the most moral army in the world because of these shirts would be completely excellent...if these shirts had any connection whatsoever with the IDF.

yeah, looks like they were done by a private company

he's making a huge stretch to claim it was IDF

Naw, the IDF just couldn't do anything wrong, could they? Why can't you all accept that they're capable of wrongdoing? Seriously, y'all, don't you ever think you're hitting the Kool-Aid a bit too hard? Even IDF officials have admitted that their own soldiers had the shirts made. They gave them a nice (verbal) slap on the wrist.

Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 - Haaretz - Israel News
Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Killing Palestinian Women And Children During Gaza Offensive | World News | Sky News
Middle East News | Israeli army t-shirts mock Palestinian deaths
Israeli soldiers&squo; T-shirts show pregnant woman about to be shot | Herald Sun
The Associated Press: Israel military condemns anti-Palestinian T-shirts
U.N. report condemns Israel for Gaza operation - CNN.com
UN accuses Israeli troops of Gaza human rights abuses - Times Online

do you understand that every one of those links is basicly a repeat of the same haaretz story?

you proved NOTHING

 

[Kalam]

you proved NOTHING

Haaretz completely fabricated the story to insult their own country's military? Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

 

[DiveCon]

you proved NOTHING

Haaretz completely fabricated the story to insult their own country's military? Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

i didnt say that at all

but Haaretz is well known to be anti-government
they publish a lot of questionable stories, about the same as the national enquirer here in the USA

again, even in THEIR story, they can only make a very slim link to soldiers in the IDF, not the IDF itself

and before you say thats defending the IDF, its also defending the FACTS at this point as well

 

[traderjoe17]

Your argument that the IDF is not the most moral army in the world because of these shirts would be completely excellent...if these shirts had any connection whatsoever with the IDF.

yeah, looks like they were done by a private company

he's making a huge stretch to claim it was IDF

Naw, the IDF just couldn't do anything wrong, could they? Why can't you all accept that they're capable of wrongdoing? Seriously, y'all, don't you ever think you're hitting the Kool-Aid a bit too hard? Even IDF officials have admitted that their own soldiers had the shirts made. They gave them a nice (verbal) slap on the wrist.

Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 - Haaretz - Israel News
Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Killing Palestinian Women And Children During Gaza Offensive | World News | Sky News
Middle East News | Israeli army t-shirts mock Palestinian deaths
Israeli soldiers&squo; T-shirts show pregnant woman about to be shot | Herald Sun
The Associated Press: Israel military condemns anti-Palestinian T-shirts
U.N. report condemns Israel for Gaza operation - CNN.com
UN accuses Israeli troops of Gaza human rights abuses - Times Online

Yes, soldiers created those shirts. Some soldiers. In fact, a very minor group of soldiers.

You're applying the actions of a few soldiers - in a country where everyone serves in the military - to the entire IDF organization.

 

[Kalam]

i didnt say that at all

but Haaretz is well known to be anti-government
they publish a lot of questionable stories, about the same as the national enquirer here in the USA

again, even in THEIR story, they can only make a very slim link to soldiers in the IDF, not the IDF itself

Sorry; Haaretz isn't a sensationalist rag like the Enquirer. It's a legitimate news source. FFS, it's Israel's oldest daily newspaper. You aren't going to save face or anything by continuing to deny what's obviously true - soldiers from the IDF had these shirts made, and racist sentiments are more prevalent in the IDF than most people would like to admit. Does that mean the entire Israeli military is racist? No, but it means that there's a problem that needs to be addressed. People like you are making it worse by completely denying it.

and before you say thats defending the IDF, its also defending the FACTS at this point as well

No, it's mindless IDF apologism.

 

[Kalam]

Yes, soldiers created those shirts. Some soldiers. In fact, a very minor group of soldiers.

Read the interview in Haaretz.

You're applying the actions of a few soldiers - in a country where everyone serves in the military - to the entire IDF organization.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that this is something that the IDF actually needs to do something about. From what I've observed, the IDF has a tendency to be pretty tolerant of misconduct. That needs to end.

 

[DiveCon]

i didnt say that at all

but Haaretz is well known to be anti-government
they publish a lot of questionable stories, about the same as the national enquirer here in the USA

again, even in THEIR story, they can only make a very slim link to soldiers in the IDF, not the IDF itself

Sorry; Haaretz isn't a sensationalist rag like the Enquirer. It's a legitimate news source. FFS, it's Israel's oldest daily newspaper. You aren't going to save face or anything by continuing to deny what's obviously true - soldiers from the IDF had these shirts made, and racist sentiments are more prevalent in the IDF than most people would like to admit. Does that mean the entire Israeli military is racist? No, but it means that there's a problem that needs to be addressed. People like you are making it worse by completely denying it.

and before you say thats defending the IDF, its also defending the FACTS at this point as well

No, it's mindless IDF apologism.

wrong
Haaretz IS like the National Enquirer
the paper of record is the Jerusalem post
and no, you are the mindless one
i have given it very thoughtful consideration and YOU dont bring the facts to back it up
i already know what you are doing
and it doesnt work with me
you are EXPOSED asshole

 

[traderjoe17]

Yes, soldiers created those shirts. Some soldiers. In fact, a very minor group of soldiers.

Read the interview in Haaretz.

You're applying the actions of a few soldiers - in a country where everyone serves in the military - to the entire IDF organization.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that this is something that the IDF actually needs to do something about. From what I've observed, the IDF has a tendency to be pretty tolerant of misconduct. That needs to end.

When soldiers take basic training, they carry around a little packet that outlines their duties as soldiers - which also point out the moral and ethical principles that they must take into their actions.

Now, if some soldiers choose to ignore those principles, then that's more than natural. Every army in the world has people like that, who choose to set off on their own. As far as the IDF taking action against those people - soldiers are more than often disciplined. Soldiers are demoted, sent to military jail, sometimes discharged, etc. The IDF does respond to blatant violations of the code.

As far as these shirts - they're just shirts. Israelis have the right to wear them if they so desire. They are not crated by or endorsed by the IDF, and more often than not IDF commanders prohibit these shirts from being worn during exercises. Read your own article.

And just so we're clear - when a country is the size of New Jersey, and is surrounded by hostile countries that outnumber it by hundreds of times and want nothing more than its complete and utter annihilation - you have a little more to be concerned about than 'disciplining' your soldiers. The efficiency with which the IDF does take action is astounding and unprecedented in any modern army engaged in conflict.

 

[Kalam]

wrong
Haaretz IS like the National Enquirer
the paper of record is the Jerusalem post

Repeating a lie isn't going to make it true. The fact that you're unwilling to accept something printed in Haaretz doesn't make it any less reputable than it is. JPost can be okay, but it's like fox news for the most part.

For you: 'IDF used Gaza boy as human shield' | Israel | Jerusalem Post

and no, you are the mindless one

No, I'm not a crazy Hamas supporter who attempts to justify everything fucked up thing Hamas does. In fact, I hate Hamas. I happen to hate the current IDF, too, an organization you're crazily supportive of for some reason.

i have given it very thoughtful consideration and YOU dont bring the facts to back it up

I gave you a link to a reputable, credible news source and you denied it. Sorry, dude, it's all you this time.

i already know what you are doing
and it doesnt work with me
you are EXPOSED asshole

What are you even talking about?

 

[DiveCon]

wrong
Haaretz IS like the National Enquirer
the paper of record is the Jerusalem post

Repeating a lie isn't going to make it true. The fact that you're unwilling to accept something printed in Haaretz doesn't make it any less reputable than it is. JPost can be okay, but it's like fox news for the most part.

For you: 'IDF used Gaza boy as human shield' | Israel | Jerusalem Post

and no, you are the mindless one

No, I'm not a crazy Hamas supporter who attempts to justify everything fucked up thing Hamas does. In fact, I hate Hamas. I happen to hate the current IDF, too, an organization you're crazily supportive of for some reason.

i have given it very thoughtful consideration and YOU dont bring the facts to back it up

I gave you a link to a reputable, credible news source and you denied it. Sorry, dude, it's all you this time.

i already know what you are doing
and it doesnt work with me
you are EXPOSED asshole

What are you even talking about?

but i'm NOT supporting the IDF
i'm just not believing your bullshit about them

 

[Kalam]

When soldiers take basic training, they carry around a little packet that outlines their duties as soldiers - which also point out the moral and ethical principles that they must take into their actions.

Now, if some soldiers choose to ignore those principles, then that's more than natural. Every army in the world has people like that, who choose to set off on their own. As far as the IDF taking action against those people - soldiers are more than often disciplined. Soldiers are demoted, sent to military jail, sometimes discharged, etc. The IDF does respond to blatant violations of the code.

I notice inexcusable actions being ignored by the IDF somewhat frequently. I'd be surprised if they did anything to the sniper who killed the mother and her children, and I'd be very surprised if they did a thing about this.

As far as these shirts - they're just shirts.

You don't think the messages they express are troubling at all? You don't think it's a big deal that Israeli soldiers are celebrating and encouraging the murder of pregnant women and children, and the unnecessary destruction of places of worship simply because they're Islamic?

Israelis have the right to wear them if they so desire.

If they're racist neanderthals, sure.

They are not crated by or endorsed by the IDF, and more often than not IDF commanders prohibit these shirts from being worn during exercises. Read your own article.

I accepted that from the beginning. Racist sentiments, whether they're officially endorsed or not, have an alarming presence in the Israeli military. Making a statement against these shirts and preventing them from being worn isn't going to be incredibly helpful in fighting the racist sentiments themselves.

And just so we're clear - when a country is the size of New Jersey, and is surrounded by hostile countries that outnumber it by hundreds of times and want nothing more than its complete and utter annihilation

C'mon, let's be honest. Most of Israel's neighbors were willing to work towards peace before Cast Lead. It isn't as if poor, defenseless Israel is surrounded by huge, evil countries bent on its complete destruction.

- you have a little more to be concerned about than 'disciplining' your soldiers. The efficiency with which the IDF does take action is astounding and unprecedented in any modern army engaged in conflict.

Meh. They killed at least twice the number of civilians as they did combatants in a one-month operation. They could use some discipline... some of them, at least.

 

[Kalam]

but i'm NOT supporting the IDF
i'm just not believing your bullshit about them

Yes... you are supporting the IDF. Fanatically.

It's not simply "my bullshit." I always back my "bullshit" up with credible news sources.