Mandatory Insurance is Wrong

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

In terms of health insurance, I agree with you. When it comes to auto insurance, however, I do not.

The reason auto insurance in mandated is to make sure you are able to pay for any damages your actions cause someone else. If somebody hits my car and totals it, I want them to be able to pay for it. Not everybody has assets that you can sue for through court. Sure, if they can't pay for my damages and have nothing of theirs I can seize through legal means they'll end up in jail and be punished, but that doesn't help me buy and pay for a new car that I may not be in a position to do.

It's the same rationale for mandatory health insurance. If you get sick and can't pay your hospital bill, other's will be stuck with the tab. The only difference is that you can at least choose not to drive a car, whereas the health insurance mandate is aimed at every living person for their entire life. That is a significant differences, and it does make it much worse in my opinion. But they are still based on the same idea of pre-punishing someone for something they haven't done yet, something they may never do.

It is not the same rationale. If I cause damage to someone else's vehicle and can't pay for it I am directly harming that individual. If I can't pay my medical bills, it's possible they may raise costs on the care of others to make up for it, but that's a choice they make, not me. Indirectly, I may have caused that to happen, but it was ultimately the hospital that made the choice to reimburse themselves by that method as opposed to others.

 

[dblack]

If you believe in the social contract claptrap you cannot assert that anything the government does violates it. Even Locke's version of social contract implies that the government exist naturally. Government is imposed on us by others, it is not natural.

I'm not leaning on any social contract theory. Just commenting that my grant of sovereignty is to government, not insurance companies.

No one has granted any sovereignty to insurance companies you moron.

We granted them the power of taxation. What do you call that?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I'm not leaning on any social contract theory. Just commenting that my grant of sovereignty is to government, not insurance companies.

No one has granted any sovereignty to insurance companies you moron.

We granted them the power of taxation. What do you call that?

No we haven't.

You're an idiot.

 

[dblack]

The reason we have government in the first place is to deal with the risks of living in a free society. Outsourcing that job to private companies by mandating that citizens purchase insurance is a corruption of the social contract. If people are engaging in behavior that poses an unacceptable risk to others, then make that behavior illegal. Otherwise, leave them alone. If and when they harm someone else, hold them accountable. Prepaid punishment for crimes we may never commit is insane.

If you don't want car insurance don't drive a car

If you don't want health insurance that's fine, too, you can pay the penalty tax if you have income.

I think you've puked out this argument before, haven't you? If you haven't, many other Robamneycare apologists have. You're not 'free' to do something if you get punished for it. How hard can that concept be?

Would you use the same idiotic logic to claim that we're free to run stop signs?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

The reason we have government in the first place is to deal with the risks of living in a free society. Outsourcing that job to private companies by mandating that citizens purchase insurance is a corruption of the social contract. If people are engaging in behavior that poses an unacceptable risk to others, then make that behavior illegal. Otherwise, leave them alone. If and when they harm someone else, hold them accountable. Prepaid punishment for crimes we may never commit is insane.

If you don't want car insurance don't drive a car

If you don't want health insurance that's fine, too, you can pay the penalty tax if you have income.

I think you've puked out this argument before, haven't you? If you haven't, many other Robamneycare apologists have. You're not 'free' to do something if you get punished for it. How hard can that concept be?

Would you use the same idiotic logic to claim that we're free to run stop signs?

There is no criminal punishment for not buying health insurance.

 

[dblack]

If you don't want car insurance don't drive a car

If you don't want health insurance that's fine, too, you can pay the penalty tax if you have income.

I think you've puked out this argument before, haven't you? If you haven't, many other Robamneycare apologists have. You're not 'free' to do something if you get punished for it. How hard can that concept be?

Would you use the same idiotic logic to claim that we're free to run stop signs?

There is no criminal punishment for not buying health insurance.

Bullshit. It's tax. That much, if nothing else, was clarified by the court. What's the penalty for tax evasion?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I think you've puked out this argument before, haven't you? If you haven't, many other Robamneycare apologists have. You're not 'free' to do something if you get punished for it. How hard can that concept be?

Would you use the same idiotic logic to claim that we're free to run stop signs?

There is no criminal punishment for not buying health insurance.

Bullshit. It's tax. That much, if nothing else, was clarified by the court. What's the penalty for tax evasion?

The ACA itself specifically states the government may not criminally punish anyone for failing to pay the penalty. Its the law.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

So no criminal punishment, they will just garnish your wages. Or make the charge of tax evasion a smeared one and nail you anyway. People are so gullible.

 

[dblack]

There is no criminal punishment for not buying health insurance.

Bullshit. It's tax. That much, if nothing else, was clarified by the court. What's the penalty for tax evasion?

The ACA itself specifically states the government may not criminally punish anyone for failing to pay the penalty. Its the law.

Yes. And the president specifically stated it wasn't a tax. But now it is.

Do you really think anyone believes this? Do you really think Congress would pass a law with zero intention of enforcing it? If people refuse to pay this tax, do you think the IRS will simply turn a blind eye?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

So no criminal punishment, they will just garnish your wages. Or make the charge of tax evasion a smeared one and nail you anyway. People are so gullible.

A "smeared one" ?


You're an idiot. Tax evasion is when you LIE to the government. Simply not paying a tax is not a lie, its failure to pay. You can't be criminally charged for failure to pay the penalty tax. That's what the law says. I'm very sorry its not convenient to your argument.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Bullshit. It's tax. That much, if nothing else, was clarified by the court. What's the penalty for tax evasion?

The ACA itself specifically states the government may not criminally punish anyone for failing to pay the penalty. Its the law.

Yes. And the president specifically stated it wasn't a tax. But now it is.

Do you really think anyone believes this? Do you really think Congress would pass a law with zero intention of enforcing it? If people refuse to pay this tax, do you think the IRS will simply turn a blind eye?

It doesn't say they can't enforce it dimwit, it says they can't criminally charge anyone for not paying it. Fuck you're a dumbass. And it doesn't really matter if anyone "believes" it or not - its what the law actually says. Do I have to look it up for your lazy ass or is it too much to ask that you actually know what the law you're whining about says?

 

[dblack]

The ACA itself specifically states the government may not criminally punish anyone for failing to pay the penalty. Its the law.

Yes. And the president specifically stated it wasn't a tax. But now it is.

Do you really think anyone believes this? Do you really think Congress would pass a law with zero intention of enforcing it? If people refuse to pay this tax, do you think the IRS will simply turn a blind eye?

It doesn't say they can't enforce it dimwit, it says they can't criminally charge anyone for not paying it.

So, you were just equivocating then? And you acknowledge that the law will be enforced and does take away our freedom to tell the insurance companies to fuck off? To refuse to buy their product?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Yes. And the president specifically stated it wasn't a tax. But now it is.

Do you really think anyone believes this? Do you really think Congress would pass a law with zero intention of enforcing it? If people refuse to pay this tax, do you think the IRS will simply turn a blind eye?

It doesn't say they can't enforce it dimwit, it says they can't criminally charge anyone for not paying it.

So, you were just equivocating then? And you acknowledge that the law will be enforced and does take away our freedom to tell the insurance companies to fuck off? To refuse to buy their product?

If you want to burden the People with your health risk instead of being a responsible adult and buying health insurance, fine, but we're going to charge you for it.

 

[dblack]

It doesn't say they can't enforce it dimwit, it says they can't criminally charge anyone for not paying it.

So, you were just equivocating then? And you acknowledge that the law will be enforced and does take away our freedom to tell the insurance companies to fuck off? To refuse to buy their product?

If you want to burden the People with your health risk instead of being a responsible adult and buying health insurance, fine, but we're going to charge you for it.

Not buying health insurance imposes exactly NO burden on the "People". So shove your charge up your ass.... Besides, according to you (talking out of both sides of your mouth) I don't have to pay it anyway, right?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

So, you were just equivocating then? And you acknowledge that the law will be enforced and does take away our freedom to tell the insurance companies to fuck off? To refuse to buy their product?

If you want to burden the People with your health risk instead of being a responsible adult and buying health insurance, fine, but we're going to charge you for it.

Not buying health insurance imposes exactly NO burden on the "People". So shove your charge up your ass.... Besides, according to you (talking out of both sides of your mouth) I don't have to pay it anyway, right?

Baloney. If you don't have insurance and wind up in need of emergency care you can't pay for the burden falls NOT ON YOU but on the REST OF US.

 

[dblack]

If you want to burden the People with your health risk instead of being a responsible adult and buying health insurance, fine, but we're going to charge you for it.

Not buying health insurance imposes exactly NO burden on the "People". So shove your charge up your ass.... Besides, according to you (talking out of both sides of your mouth) I don't have to pay it anyway, right?

Baloney. If you don't have insurance and wind up in need of emergency care you can't pay for the burden falls NOT ON YOU but on the REST OF US.

Yeah IF... we're now punishing people for what they might do. Guilty until proven innocent, eh?

I make exactly no claim that you, or anyone else, should pay my way if I can't afford it. So, what's your excuse for chaining us to corporate insurance now?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Not buying health insurance imposes exactly NO burden on the "People". So shove your charge up your ass.... Besides, according to you (talking out of both sides of your mouth) I don't have to pay it anyway, right?

Baloney. If you don't have insurance and wind up in need of emergency care you can't pay for the burden falls NOT ON YOU but on the REST OF US.

Yeah IF... we're now punishing people for what they might do. Guilty until proven innocent, eh?

You are not being criminally punished.

I make exactly no claim that you, or anyone else, should pay my way if I can't afford it.

Great. Then we're agreed. You'll pay for it yourself then. Buy fucking health insurance you irresponsible loser.

 

[dblack]

Baloney. If you don't have insurance and wind up in need of emergency care you can't pay for the burden falls NOT ON YOU but on the REST OF US.

Yeah IF... we're now punishing people for what they might do. Guilty until proven innocent, eh?

You are not being criminally punished.

Equivocating again? You're being punished. Whether it's "criminal" or not is irrelevant.

Buy fucking health insurance you irresponsible loser.

Mind your own fucking business, corporate shill.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

what???



I've never said I should be able to 'run a tab' on my health care bill. But likewise, you aren't - or shouldn't be - forced to carry health insurance.

Grandma said -

And if I do that you can penalize me. The premise of mandatory insurance is that I will, and that I should be punished for it in advance.

In other words, you should be allowed to run a tab because you SAY you will pay.

No, I didn't say that in any words. Whether or not someone should be required to pay up front should be entirely up to the service providers. If you're banking on the EMTALA bullshit for your argument, it's largely a non-factor. But if you insist that it is causing a problem, if it's "forcing" stingy liberals to pay for "freeloaders", then we should repeal so they'll stop whining.

dblack wrote

And if I do that you can penalize me. The premise of mandatory insurance is that I will [not pay my bill], and that I should be punished for it in advance

Note that my understanding of your words is inside the [] and italicized. Do you agree that THAT is what you meant?

Personally, I think insurance of any and all kinds STINKS. But, I also believe its necessary because we really have not guarantee that (editorial) "you" will pay your bills. Just like the car insurance example, which is indeed appropriate, if you hit my car with your car and you are at fault, how do I know you will pay for the damage you caused?

AND, while I am waiting for you to pay for the damage to my car, I am incurring more expenses because I have to rent another car to get to and from work. How do I know you will pay that bill? You DO owe it because, if you had not hit my car, I would be able to drive it to work.

If I am a doctor or a hospital, how do I know you will pay for the care I give you? While I am waiting for you to pay your medical bill, I have overhead. I have staff to pay, rent, equipment, supplies - all of which I have to go into debt for because I am waiting for so damn many deadbeats to pay their friggin bills. If I am to remain in business, I have no choice to but raise my fees and prices to my other patients.

Meanwhile, more people like you come in for my services and promise that they'll pay.

 

[dblack]

dblack wrote

And if I do that you can penalize me. The premise of mandatory insurance is that I will [not pay my bill], and that I should be punished for it in advance

Note that my understanding of your words is inside the [] and italicized. Do you agree that THAT is what you meant?

Personally, I think insurance of any and all kinds STINKS. But, I also believe its necessary because we really have not guarantee that (editorial) "you" will pay your bills. Just like the car insurance example, which is indeed appropriate, if you hit my car with your car and you are at fault, how do I know you will pay for the damage you caused?

Now we're getting somewhere. You've hit the nail on the head. This is the reason I started the thread!

You're right, we're not guaranteed that someone else won't do something that will cause us problems. That is the risk of living in a free society. It's the desire for that illusory, ironclad security that is leading us to piss away our freedom and acquiesce to totalitarian government. It leads us into indulging 'preventative law' that, instead of punishing people who do wrong, seeks to make it impossible for people to do wrong in the first place. But that approach is antithetical to freedom.