;) Machiavelli and Morality

[Si modo]

One can witness this Machiavellian dichotomy in US Iraq policy, despite the reflexive criticism the ideals of the war were idealistically based, the removal of tyranny, the democratisation of Iraq and a re-ordering of the basic premises of US Middle Eastern policy to more idealistic foundations.

Yet it was this very idealism which caused the early failures in war strategy, it was assumed a lighter US military presence would be seen as more benign and in keeping with the idealistic political goals, and it was seen that such idealism would be embraced by the Iraqi populace writ large almost immediately.

This caused early failure in the power prerequisites needed to control a country before any idealistic goals can be attempted, and so in the first few years the US was loath to use the sort of a-moral power needed to control the country and establish order and then pursue her more idealistic aims.

Machiavelli would say, first power, then order, then idealism

Exactly. It was the misguided and misapplied priorities taking moralities into consideration which fundamentally led to grave strategic errors.

I assert that it wasn't misguided. I contend that it was and has been the goal and purpose of the employees in Washington, to spread democracy across the globe. That requires that the U.S. act in politically correct manners. In a manner of speaking, it is a form of nation building, in my opinion. ....

I should have been more clear: it is not the nation building that was misguided, rather it was the misapplication of morality - or even allowing morality - to the strategy in Iraq. Too much consideration was given to morality in strategy/implementation of the campaign and how it would play out in the world. As Frogen said abut Machiavelli, first power, then order, then idealism. Getting those out of order was the root cause, IMO, to strategic failures for the first few years of the Iraq war.

.... In my opinion, we should be discussing Edward Gibbon's work instead. Much more apropos to where you are headed Si.

But, right now, I prefer to stick with Machiavelli. It's my thread....whine. And, I believe this topic is not limited to just Iraq.

Getting more general, what are foreign affairs but pure politics on a global level?

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

Exactly. It was the misguided and misapplied priorities taking moralities into consideration which fundamentally led to grave strategic errors.

I assert that it wasn't misguided. I contend that it was and has been the goal and purpose of the employees in Washington, to spread democracy across the globe. That requires that the U.S. act in politically correct manners. In a manner of speaking, it is a form of nation building, in my opinion. ....

I should have been more clear: it is not the nation building that was misguided, rather it was the misapplication of morality - or even allowing morality - to the strategy in Iraq. Too much consideration was given to morality in strategy/implementation of the campaign and how it would play out in the world. As Frogen said abut Machiavelli, first power, then order, then idealism. Getting those out of order was the root cause, IMO, to strategic failures for the first few years of the Iraq war.

.... In my opinion, we should be discussing Edward Gibbon's work instead. Much more apropos to where you are headed Si.

But, right now, I prefer to stick with Machiavelli. It's my thread....whine. And, I believe this topic is not limited to just Iraq.

Getting more general, what are foreign affairs but pure politics on a global level?

I don't think the U.S. got them out of order, as far as the employees are concerned. That has been the modus operandi of the U.S. government for many decades now. Actions are based on idealism. And that idealism, such as it is, is based on morality. The U.S. has been about idealism, order, then power, as far as foreign policy has been concerned.

Even if the Machiavellian 'order' was followed, we would still be where we are today, in my opinion. Trying to cull various countries under the guise of protection, is just that a guise. It is an excuse to spread dominance over, not protection from.

I do agree with you that foreign affairs is politics on a global scale.

 

[JW Frogen]

I assert that it wasn't misguided. I contend that it was and has been the goal and purpose of the employees in Washington, to spread democracy across the globe. That requires that the U.S. act in politically correct manners. In a manner of speaking, it is a form of nation building, in my opinion.

This ideology first took hold with the Wilson administration, and has been gaining ground ever since.

In my opinion, we should be discussing Edward Gibbon's work instead. Much more apropos to where you are headed Si.

Their problem was that they confused their idealistic ends for the means and so did not pursue the sort of a-moral use of military power needed to actually take the country from immoral opponents and then control it enough to establish their idealistic aims.

Not until the second battle of Fulluja and latter the surge.

Machiavelli would have counselled them that if they are going to expend blood and treasure for an idealistic goal they had better be prepared to use power in a way that seeks effective result, victory first, regardless of the morality of the tactics and then and only then can the idealistic political goal be achieved.

 

[eagleseven]

Is all reality deserving of a moral judgment?

Discuss.

I think I'll answer both your question, and Machiavelli, with a bit of Nietzsche.


"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."

-The Gay Science

 

[eagleseven]

Machiavelli would have counselled them that if they are going to expend blood and treasure for an idealistic goal they had better be prepared to use power in a way that seeks effective result, victory first, regardless of the morality of the tactics and then and only then can the idealistic political goal be achieved.

Case in point

We nuked two Japaneses cities in the two most horrific single attacks ever witnessed by humankind, and now the Japanese love/respect us.

In contrast, we moved into Iraq attempting to avoid civilian casualties, and they more or less hate us.

 

[JW Frogen]

Is all reality deserving of a moral judgment?

Discuss.

I think I'll answer both your question, and Machiavelli, with a bit of Nietzsche.


"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."

-The Gay Science

Factoid: Nietzsche's mustache was Germany's first nature reserve.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

Bumpsky for anyone that hasn't seen this worthwhile thread.