Loughner's "Not Guilty" plea

Discussion in 'Law and Justice System' started by Mini 14, Jan 25, 2011.

  1. Mini 14
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    Mini 14 Senior Member

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    Is there any doubt now that they will use the insanity defense?

    He will not be put to death, and as much as I support the death penalty, I believe in this case it is not appropriate. This young man is insane, and cannot comprehend what he has done, or even what is real and what is not.

    I wish someone had been there that day with a sidearm and a clear shot at him. It is amazing to me that in Arizona, there was not a CCW user present with the training to react, unconsciously, to the present threat of a violent lunatic, and put a bullet through his head to stop the threat.

    And before you ask, yes, had I been there and had the opportunity, I would have undoubtedly used my sidearm to stop the lunatic. Probably without much conscious thought at all (if any), until the threat had been stopped.

    I wonder about the timeline. 19 shots, and 18 hits. 9 seconds total? 9 seconds in which his attention would have been focused in one direction only.

    Enough time to react and possibly save a life or two, if you're within 20 yards or so of him when he starts his rampage.

    But now he will sit on a ward for the remainder of his natural life.

    That isn't justice, in my mind. At the same time, I don't think he would understand why we are putting him to death if we did level that sentence on him. He truly is insane.

    His crime is the perfect argument FOR the death penalty.

    His mind is the perfect argument AGAINST it.

    Vigilante justice was appropriate here. Its a shame we didn't have that opportunity.
     
  2. WillowTree
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    WillowTree Diamond Member

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    Except for he wrote " I have planned my assassination carefully" If anyone deserves the DP he does.
     
  3. goldcatt
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    goldcatt Catch me if you can! Supporting Member

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    Mental illness =/= Legal insanity

    Legal insanity =/= Mental incompetence

    If he decides to plead not guilty by reason of insanity there will be a long process to determine if he was, in fact, legally insane. That is unknown at this time.

    But legal insanity is not the same as being unable to plan, or incompetent to think at all. It means lacking the capacity basically to know right from wrong. If the exhaustive examinations make it pretty clear he is, in fact, legally insane, usually the prosecution will deal. If it goes to trial, he will have to convince the jury. Less than 20% of attempts are successful.

    I'd say if he does turn out to be not guilty by reason of insanity, it's a pretty reasonable assumption it's warranted.
     
  4. Truthmatters
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    Truthmatters BANNED

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    There was a guy there with a gun and he nearly shot the guy who tackled the kid.

    Luckily he hesitated and then jumped the guy instead.

    He jumped the man and grapped his arm with the gun and that is when the crowd told him he was grabbing a hero and the kid was the shooter.
     
  5. signelect
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    signelect BANNED

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    If you can't get along you don't belong. If I can condone shooting a man in the commission of a crime like this then I can also condone the death penalty. The ONLY difference is the timing. Why waste time and money on someone who will never be any use to himself much less anyone else. We have to stop wimping out. If I can kill to protect my self I have to be able to kill (finding him guilty of capital murder) to protect someone else.
     
  6. JamesInFlorida
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    JamesInFlorida Senior Member

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    I agree 100% on everything you said. Except I remember reports that there were a few CCWs in the crowd, who didn't open fire because of the confusion going on.

    I'm all for the death penalty-and I think the overwhelming majority of insanity cases are bogus-but this one I'm not so sure about, and this crime absolutely calls for the death penalty. But I legitimately think he was out of his mind-to the point where he would have been unable to distinguish what's right, and what's wrong.



    I don't think that statement he made shows us whether he knew what he was doing was wrong. It just shows he planned it out.

    As a side note-did he really plan it carefully? He had to pick up the ammo earlier in the day (from 2 places-the first walmart didn't sell to him). One would think any well planned out plan would at the very minimum have all the supplies you'd need before the morning?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  7. Nosmo King
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    Nosmo King Gold Member

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    I want to know about the contradictions in your position.

    Or is it your position that jurisprudence is not appropriate? That indeed vigilante justice has a rightful place in society?

    And I think adding more bullets to the chaos is about the stupidest option. Wild west shoot outs are something we should rise above.
     
  8. Mini 14
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    Mini 14 Senior Member

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    First off, I understand the difference in legal insanity and clinical insanity. I believe Loughner will meet both definitions, ie....I believe he did not understand that what he was doing was wrong. Yes, he had the mental capacity to plan it, that is obvious. But I do not believe, based on his writings prior, and his actions that day, that he fully understands or comprehends the implications of his actions.

    As for vigilante justice, yes, I believe it has a place in the world, and this is a good example. I think ultimately, this guy will answer to a higher being for his actions, regardless of how or when he leaves this world. That said, had someone walked up behind him and put a bullet through his head as he was shooting innocent people, he would receive appropriate justice at the instant that it was delivered, and possibly innocents could have been saved.

    Under our current Society (and rightfully so, IMO), he is now entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers, who shall determine his innocence or guilt, and assign the appropriate sentence.

    None of those peers will have been witnesses to what he did. They will have to reach their conclusions based on the stories of other people who were there. How they saw it. What they heard.

    Had one of the people there acted in a vigilante fashion and shot the man in the head to stop his crime, his justice would have been served, there would be some closure and less anguish for the victims and their families, and he would still ultimately be judged by his maker.

    I understand that there may have been CCW holders there, carrying and ready to act. I understand that they likely did the very best they could do. I just wish that someone better trained, or perhaps a better opportunity to react, had been presented and we would all be spared the anguish of watching this play out for another 5-7 years, with the probable outcome being that he sits in a ward awaiting a natural cause of death.

    He's a defective person. His mind is not normal, it is a defect. He will never find happiness in this world, and we will never be happy with him here among us.

    Vigilante justice works well, in some circumstances.

    This was the poster-child of those circumstances.

    Its all just my opinion.....rip it to shreds if you wish.

    But you're going to have a hard time convincing me that we need a trial to prove this guy did it, or that he isn't insane, by any definition.

    To me, the only question is whether any of the various courts he will be tried in (Federal and State) can and will sentence him to death. I believe they will if they can. I also believe they can't.
     
  9. Nosmo King
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    Nosmo King Gold Member

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    None of us can possibly say with absolute certainty what we would do, how we would react in that sad circumstance. Trained law enforcement officers, military personnel, gun-toting citizens, unarmed men and women cannot precisely predict their reactions. The scene was madness. Chaos. Trauma.

    One would hope that any vigilante would have the self discipline and poise to act responsibly. To take down the assailant not with a fatal head shot like the movies, but so that a trial can be held. More facts are discovered in trials than coroner's inquests.

    But that's asking a lot from a vigilante. One of the reasons that word sticks to the roof of your mouth, so to speak, is vigilantism has a nasty reputation for running away with itself and getting it wrong. Vigilantism is the suggestion best shouted down when action is called for. It's unfortunate that trained, alert, professional security people weren't there to protect the Congresswoman and those who came to meet her. But in a scene of madness, chaos and trauma, throwing more bullets in a screaming crowd is irresponsible at best. Remember, only one of the shooters expected to fire, the other is caught by surprise and the adrenaline will catch up with the trigger finger too early.
     
  10. xotoxi
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    xotoxi Platinum Member

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    IMO, insanity should not preclude you from the death penalty.

    I consider "insanity" to be a reason for the crime, similar to "revenge", "hatred", or "boredom"...it is not an excuse.
     

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