Levin: Repeal the 17th Amendment

[PrometheusBound]

So you would like to return to the days before the 17th amendment when senatorial elections were "bought and sold", changing hands for favors and money behind closed doors.

Senate seats today are bought and sold by the the national parties to well connected looters such as Kaiser and Blue Cross. The national parties determine exactly who will be in the Senate - the state has zero impact on the process. Dianne Feinstein has 30 + years in the Senate because she serves Bank of America. BofA shopped for a Senator from the DNC in the 80's, as were sold the rights to Feinstein. The state of California has shit to say about it - Senators are appointed at the national level and represent ONLY the national interests of their respective parties.

In spite of the PACS, and political machines that influence elections, I trust the American voter a lot more than I trust self serving politicians.

PACs are the offset to the machines. You simply don't grasp this because you are a partisan hack who bleats whatever your shameful party tells you to.

When politicians make the decision as to who will best serve the people what they are really doing is making a decision as to who will best serve their interest.

Electing representatives to elect representatives is based on the idea that government is too important to allow the people a direct a voice in who governs them which is how the USSR functioned.

Under Communism, the unelected government oligarchy owns practically all the businesses. Under Capitalism, the unelected plutocratic oligarchy that owns practically all the businesses also owns the government. Same difference.

All these corporate flunkies here would be Communist Party members if we lived in a Communist country. Also parallel is that Communist countries call themselves "republics."

A corporation is a collectivist dicatatorship. The CEO is a commissar and the major stockholders are Politburo big shots.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I am a one percenter. Sowell is a millionaire that make his money fueling the lunatic fringe.

Sure you are...

Another FABULOUSLY WEALTHY troll on the interwebz..

How unique.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Smarter men designed a system where people's representatives would be many, and that the voice of competing ideas would be heard. Representatives of the states were also to be heard, they would be few and specifically meant to further the goals of the states.

Such a system made it more difficult to buy Senators - Carnegie complained bitterly of the fact that Western States did not do his bidding - and thus was born the 17th, as a means of placing all the power of the Senate in the hands of New York oligarchs.

You seem to feel that people just can't be trusted to elect their own representatives, better to put that power in hands professional politicians who know what's best for the people. I think we're going have to agree to disagree here.

The people created the Constitution, they created the Federal system, and they sought a relationship between their National government absent interference from the states or other local jurisdictions.

Consequently, the people have the authority to amend the Constitution in the manner prescribed by the Founding Document to address any issue or issues they deem appropriate. And when an Amendment is ratified, it is imbued with the same authority and legitimacy as any Amendment ratified previously, or the Amendments in the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution prior to the Bill of Rights – including the 17th Amendment.

The people did not create the Constitution, which was plotted behind closed doors by hirelings of the 18th Century's 1%. It was not ratified by the people but by the lawyers for the individual states' 1%. What the 1% claim is the law of our land is a rulebook for debates between two kinds of elitist cliques.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Thomas Sowell wrote about these.

These ivory tower intelligentsias have the arrogance to believe that everything they write is True until proven False, or each point they make is Relevant until proven Irrelevant.

And even if you prove them false, or expose that which is irrelevant, they make 10 more assertions to "support" their claim, that must also be assumed true until proven false, or relevant until proven irrelevant.

Let not the Big Government histories of Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pott, Hilter, Mussolini, Castro or the bankruptcies of Cyrus, Greece and Detroit worry you, or the rampant violence, rape and murder in "gun-free" Chicago, Camden or California trouble you, Libtards don't go by facts, but pure emotion.

For the kids!

So you quote Thomas Sowell, a one percenter with something to sell. You truly are a sheep!

You have no Earthly idea what a 'one percenter' is if you think Sowell is a one percenter, lol.

He's a lawn jockey ornament owned by the 1%. So is your imaginary enemy, Big Rock Obama, who is also a busboy for bankers.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Ultimately the power and authority of governance rests solely with the people.

The Power and Authority of Government rests solely on Natural Law. Not even the entirety of the People can violate the Natural Rights of a single Person.
.[/B]

If the Majority becomes a Tyranny, violating the Natural Rights of Persons in a minority, that Majority is no longer the Governed, they are the Governor. That means the oppressed minority, the Governed, has the right to alter or abolish that Governor, be it by peaceful or lethal means.

And this is why the Majority Libtards want to disarm the Free Men (the minority), because they are the Governor, they steal our property (excessive taxation) and punish our self-reliance. The Minority of Free Men, the Governed, not only have the right, but the solemn DUTY to Abolish this parasitical Governor.

.[/QUOTE]

If you think the majority of Americans are an ignorant, self-destructive, mooching mob, why don't you go find another country to live in? We certainly don't want conceited predators like you here.

 

[JimBowie1958]

So you quote Thomas Sowell, a one percenter with something to sell. You truly are a sheep!

You have no Earthly idea what a 'one percenter' is if you think Sowell is a one percenter, lol.

He's a lawn jockey ornament owned by the 1%. So is your imaginary enemy, Big Rock Obama, who is also a busboy for bankers.

I know exactly what a buttboy Obama has been for the banksters, starting with his membership in a gay bath-house where he likely auditioned showing his talents, lol.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You seem to feel that people just can't be trusted to elect their own representatives, better to put that power in hands professional politicians who know what's best for the people. I think we're going have to agree to disagree here.

The people created the Constitution, they created the Federal system, and they sought a relationship between their National government absent interference from the states or other local jurisdictions.

Consequently, the people have the authority to amend the Constitution in the manner prescribed by the Founding Document to address any issue or issues they deem appropriate. And when an Amendment is ratified, it is imbued with the same authority and legitimacy as any Amendment ratified previously, or the Amendments in the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution prior to the Bill of Rights – including the 17th Amendment.

The people did not create the Constitution, which was plotted behind closed doors by hirelings of the 18th Century's 1%. It was not ratified by the people but by the lawyers for the individual states' 1%. What the 1% claim is the law of our land is a rulebook for debates between two kinds of elitist cliques.

Yeah, the people couldn't have done it since only those they elected did it for them in a representative form of government, lol.

The people's representatives, duly elected, wrote the Constitution in the name of the people of the US.

That is the best way to have government, as long as the representatives/Senators do not come from a professional political class like we have now.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Ultimately the power and authority of governance rests solely with the people.

The Power and Authority of Government rests solely on Natural Law. Not even the entirety of the People can violate the Natural Rights of a single Person.
.[/B]

If the Majority becomes a Tyranny, violating the Natural Rights of Persons in a minority, that Majority is no longer the Governed, they are the Governor. That means the oppressed minority, the Governed, has the right to alter or abolish that Governor, be it by peaceful or lethal means.

And this is why the Majority Libtards want to disarm the Free Men (the minority), because they are the Governor, they steal our property (excessive taxation) and punish our self-reliance. The Minority of Free Men, the Governed, not only have the right, but the solemn DUTY to Abolish this parasitical Governor.

.

If you think the majority of Americans are an ignorant, self-destructive, mooching mob, why don't you go find another country to live in? We certainly don't want conceited predators like you here.[/QUOTE]

We don't need another "country" to live in, we have the United States Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land; it's the criminals and usurpers that need another place to relocate to, either another country or the Battlefront.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The people did not create the Constitution, which was plotted behind closed doors by hirelings of the 18th Century's 1%. It was not ratified by the people but by the lawyers for the individual states' 1%. What the 1% claim is the law of our land is a rulebook for debates between two kinds of elitist cliques.

Hey, I have an idea - next time you're at an OWS rally, shitting on a police car, look for your fellow sock - er SOUL - onepercenter - and make him 'live in fear....'

LOL

You fools are such a joke.

 

[Uncensored2008]

He's a lawn jockey ornament owned by the 1%. So is your imaginary enemy, Big Rock Obama, who is also a busboy for bankers.

you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still a fucking peasant as far as I can see
A working class hero is something to be

 

[Flopper]

The people have never had the right to elect their president, the electoral college does that.

Distinction without a difference in the world today. The people cast their vote and the person that they voted for wins. Then only way that your contention would mean anything is if the EC went against the voters, something that has not happened in a VERY long time and I don’t think it has ever changed the outcome of an election.

The people vote for the president; denying that does not bolster your position.

If the 17th amendment were repealed the people would lose their right to elect their senators also.

If the people of a state do not directly elect their Senators, they can not vote them out of office. A Senators constituents would be the members of the legislature that elected him, not the people. So as long as a senator pleases his legislative constituency, what the people want is irrelevant because the only way the people can remove the senator is to remove the state legislators that sent him to Washington

No, they could not vote them out. What’s your point? The entire point is that the state legislators would be the senators ‘constituents’ giving the STATE a voice in government once again and allowing the states to exercise their sovereignty once more.

That right there I think is the most glaring point. As pointed out earlier, I don’t think that those on your side of the argument simply do not believe in states right or sovereignty. Instead, you just see them as another layer of government.

and if those legislators are outside their district, they have no say at all.

If the voters are outside of the senators district they have no say at all right now so, no kidding.

Senators would in effect just be proxy voters for the legislative constituency that elected them. The more indirect representation you have the less voice the people have in how their government is run.

THAT’S THE POINT. How can we be this far into the discussion and you not realize that. The point of the senate is NOT to be a vice of the people but rather a voice of the states. You continue to ignore that simple contention. You can disagree with it (as you clearly do) but you are completely ignoring that is the position of those that want to repeal the 17th.

Since the possibility of repeal of the 17th amendment is about as likely as Obama backing a bill to repeal the HCA, I'm not going to waste the time debating it. Can you imagine 2/3 of the Senators voting to take away voting right from their constituents?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Levin's brilliance is in NO way undercut by the fact that as an interviewer of some call in guests he can be rude and insufficiently polite.

I often find his schtick in that regard entertaining and yet I also sometimes find it a bit undignified and beneath him.

So fucking what?

What does that have to do with the arguments Levin has made in his new book?

It is possible (stretch your imagination and go with this thought for a moment) that his deficits as a polite radio host have -- oh -- nothing to do with the validity of his thesis?

I suspect that Mr. Levin's abruptness and impatience with people has a lot to do with his personality in general. Someone once said that being an arrogant asshole is a common failing of people who know what the fuck they're doing, and very smart people often are not terribly strong on people skills. I actually think Mr. Levin does an excellent of job of working his basic nature and personality into an entertaining and successful radio style. It's not to everyone's taste, but what is?

If were a radio personality I would have the same methods. I cannot stand people who cannot get ot their point. I find those who cannot stay on the subject matter of a particular debate to be not worth my time.
If one decides to ramble on with nothing but complaints. Click. Or conspiracy theorists. Click.

 

[FA_Q2]

Ultimately the power and authority of governance rests solely with the people.

The Power and Authority of Government rests solely on Natural Law. Not even the entirety of the People can violate the Natural Rights of a single Person.
.[/B]

[snip]


If the Majority becomes a Tyranny, violating the Natural Rights of Persons in a minority, that Majority is no longer the Governed, they are the Governor. That means the oppressed minority, the Governed, has the right to alter or abolish that Governor, be it by peaceful or lethal means.

And this is why the Majority Libtards want to disarm the Free Men (the minority), because they are the Governor, they steal our property (excessive taxation) and punish our self-reliance. The Minority of Free Men, the Governed, not only have the right, but the solemn DUTY to Abolish this parasitical Governor.

.

If you think the majority of Americans are an ignorant, self-destructive, mooching mob, why don't you go find another country to live in? We certainly don't want conceited predators like you here.

It is worth noting that the last time that happened, America declared war on them and forced them to capitulate anyway. It seems to me that is not really an answer.

BY THE WAY – fix your tags and at least note when you are snipping shit out of peoples quotes. It is against the rules here to change quotes without noting it.

 

[FA_Q2]

The people have never had the right to elect their president, the electoral college does that.

Distinction without a difference in the world today. The people cast their vote and the person that they voted for wins. Then only way that your contention would mean anything is if the EC went against the voters, something that has not happened in a VERY long time and I don’t think it has ever changed the outcome of an election.

The people vote for the president; denying that does not bolster your position.

No, they could not vote them out. What’s your point? The entire point is that the state legislators would be the senators ‘constituents’ giving the STATE a voice in government once again and allowing the states to exercise their sovereignty once more.

That right there I think is the most glaring point. As pointed out earlier, I don’t think that those on your side of the argument simply do not believe in states right or sovereignty. Instead, you just see them as another layer of government.

If the voters are outside of the senators district they have no say at all right now so, no kidding.

Senators would in effect just be proxy voters for the legislative constituency that elected them. The more indirect representation you have the less voice the people have in how their government is run.

THAT’S THE POINT. How can we be this far into the discussion and you not realize that. The point of the senate is NOT to be a vice of the people but rather a voice of the states. You continue to ignore that simple contention. You can disagree with it (as you clearly do) but you are completely ignoring that is the position of those that want to repeal the 17th.

Since the possibility of repeal of the 17th amendment is about as likely as Obama backing a bill to repeal the HCA, I'm not going to waste the time debating it. Can you imagine 2/3 of the Senators voting to take away voting right from their constituents?

Of course not. Why bother debating ideas on a debate board.

99.9% of the topics here are not going to happen. That is NOT the point. The point is the exchange of ideas to refine or change positions on the merits of the arguments.

 

[FA_Q2]

I am a one percenter. Sowell is a millionaire that make his money fueling the lunatic fringe.

Sure you are...

Another FABULOUSLY WEALTHY troll on the interwebz..

How unique.

I always find the claims of wealth or education here rather funny. I have not met a wealthy person that was incapable of articulating a basic thought. It is crystal clear who might have some education or wealth. At least EARNED wealth; I guess they could be wealthy through inheritance but in that case the claim is still worthless.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Next 1%phile proposal on the Libretardian agenda: Taking advantage of their wholly owned Constipation allowing the bribe-addicts at the state legislatures to vote any way they feel like in sending their flunkies to the electoral college. As one Right Wing whacko pointed out, "The people do not have the right to vote for President. Only the electors have that vote and they don't have to vote the way their states' citizens voted in the election."

 

[PrometheusBound]

The Power and Authority of Government rests solely on Natural Law. Not even the entirety of the People can violate the Natural Rights of a single Person.
.[/B]

And this is why the Majority Libtards want to disarm the Free Men (the minority), because they are the Governor, they steal our property (excessive taxation) and punish our self-reliance. The Minority of Free Men, the Governed, not only have the right, but the solemn DUTY to Abolish this parasitical Governor.

.

If you think the majority of Americans are an ignorant, self-destructive, mooching mob, why don't you go find another country to live in? We certainly don't want conceited predators like you here.

We don't need another "country" to live in, we have the United States Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land; it's the criminals and usurpers that need another place to relocate to, either another country or the Battlefront.[/QUOTE]



I don't know why you are so upset with me. You should be flattered, because all I am saying is that the Framers who framed us were just like you.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Ultimately the power and authority of governance rests solely with the people.

The Power and Authority of Government rests solely on Natural Law. Not even the entirety of the People can violate the Natural Rights of a single Person.
.[/B]

If the Majority becomes a Tyranny, violating the Natural Rights of Persons in a minority, that Majority is no longer the Governed, they are the Governor. That means the oppressed minority, the Governed, has the right to alter or abolish that Governor, be it by peaceful or lethal means.

And this is why the Majority Libtards want to disarm the Free Men (the minority), because they are the Governor, they steal our property (excessive taxation) and punish our self-reliance. The Minority of Free Men, the Governed, not only have the right, but the solemn DUTY to Abolish this parasitical Governor.

.

If you think the majority of Americans are an ignorant, self-destructive, mooching mob, why don't you go find another country to live in? We certainly don't want conceited predators like you here.

You are the RACIST type that told BLACKS like Martin Luther King to "go back to Africa."

Here's what Martin Luther King said, which is very similar to what I said:

One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself.

Would you have told MLK and the black community at the time "If you don't' like it, leave the UNited States."

Oh yes you would. The Progressives were the Overseers for decades, and remain so. They even started the KKK.

How does it feel to have the race card pulled on you (although my flashing of the card is rooted in historical evidence).

 

[The2ndAmendment]

I don't know why you are so upset with me. You should be flattered, because all I am saying is that the Framers who framed us were just like you.

We get it, you openly HATE the founders and ADMITTEDLY support Communism.

 

[OnePercenter]

You have no Earthly idea what a 'one percenter' is if you think Sowell is a one percenter, lol.

I am a one percenter. Sowell is a millionaire that make his money fueling the lunatic fringe.

One percenters are more than just wealthy; they are the OWNERS of just about everything, they went to the same kind of elite colleges and have the same levels of cost for their lifestyle. You have to earn an average of well over $300,000 each year to get into that percentage and that doesn't even do it for the group most people think of; the OWNERS of everything.

We are the 99% - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you're saying Sowell IS a one percenter. Thank You.