Let's be Just Like The Netherlands!!

[Bonnie]

First, I don't think you can equate euthenasia with murder, if for no other reason than the motive. There are situations where the taking of a human life is justifiable, self-defense being the most recognized. To allow a person who is terminally ill to gather their loved ones and pass peacefully and with dignity is an act of kindness, not an act to be loathed as someone playing God.

As Ive stated before, if somone really wants be allowed to die that's one thing, when a doctor steps in or a relative steps in and actually takes the life, that's a whole different thing entirely. Anyone can commit suicide if they wish, or if they don't want to be kept alive with machines that's perfectly understandable as long as it's their idea, and not someone else making that decision. What's happening in the Netherlands is Horrific and in no way indicative of people "dying with dignity".

 

[Bonnie]

I went to the link posted with the original story but was unable to find this on their website. I was curious as to where they got their information. This site clearly has an agenda so I wanted to double check their information. I would do this with a site from the opposite viewpoint as well. I am a strong supporter of the Oregon Assisted Suicide Law and firmly believe that if someone who is verifiably terminally ill wants to die instead of suffering they should have that right.

acludem

Site aside those stats can most likely be verified as it is no secret........And again anyone who is ill or otherwise that wants to kill themselves can certainly do that. Why do they need someone else to do it for them??? And if they don't want to be hooked up to machines, then fine let them stipulate it in writing and when the time comes no extreme measures will be taken. It seems very cut and dry to me. That is not what this article is talking about...........

 

[Avatar4321]

This so called doctors should be stripped of any rights to practice medicine. Doctors are supposed to do what they can to find cures for patients, not do what they can to murder patients. and they especially have no right to murder children.

What kind of society do we live in when we can see the people we charge to save human life find excuses not to do their job, but rather kill them. What the heck is wrong with pain? Yeah it can suck sometimes. But it is still an essential part of life. Im grateful for the times of pain in my life. Without the pain where would I find my strength? Without pain and suffering how will i realize my true character? Without pain and suffering how will i recognize the times of joy and happiness? Doctors dont have the right to terminate a patients life. Not even the patient has that right. We dont have the right to turn and run away from our problems when things get tough. Fact is we cant even if we try. We just make things worse and end up suffering more.

I am seriously disgusted with the lack of respect for life the left has.

 

[manu1959]

how easy it seems for you all to condem others and prevent those that would like to pass quickly and quietly from doing so....

 

[Avatar4321]

how easy it seems for you all to condem others and prevent those that would like to pass quickly and quietly from doing so....

I am surprised you cant comprehend a difference between naturally dying quickly and quietly and by artificial means. No one is preventing people who decide to let nature take its course from doing so. The issue is whether people have the right to terminate other lives or their own artificially because they are unwilling to face the challenge of living. There is a huge distinction here.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

how easy it seems for you all to condem others and prevent those that would like to pass quickly and quietly from doing so....

I don't think anybody here thinks it is easy to watch someone die of a horrible disease. Life can be hard, especially when dying, but it is still life. We should not become the arbiters of human life and death as though we are God.

The Left line of reasoning starts with the tugging of the heartstrings, telling us that we are freeing the dying from pain, etc. Yet almost anyone today can be free of pain in the dying stages of an incurable disease. This is what the medical practitioners should be working on, how to help the dying, not how to zap them.

The problem with the reasoning of the Left is that once we find an excuse to take a life for one reason (even if it seems a good one) we can eventually find more reasons and rationalizations to take more human lives. The sanctity of life has been broken.

An example of this contempt for life can be found in China today. There you can find tiny babies lying in the gutters, left there to die. The Chinese value having a son and since the Communist regime dictates the number of children, many couples choose death for a girl child in order to have a son.

A political ideology that allows the snuffing of human life, that makes people kill even their own children, is an ideology of death and darkness that can only get worse over time.

 

[Bullypulpit]

This so called doctors should be stripped of any rights to practice medicine. Doctors are supposed to do what they can to find cures for patients, not do what they can to murder patients. and they especially have no right to murder children.

What kind of society do we live in when we can see the people we charge to save human life find excuses not to do their job, but rather kill them. What the heck is wrong with pain? Yeah it can suck sometimes. But it is still an essential part of life. Im grateful for the times of pain in my life. Without the pain where would I find my strength? Without pain and suffering how will i realize my true character? Without pain and suffering how will i recognize the times of joy and happiness? Doctors dont have the right to terminate a patients life. Not even the patient has that right. We dont have the right to turn and run away from our problems when things get tough. Fact is we cant even if we try. We just make things worse and end up suffering more.

I am seriously disgusted with the lack of respect for life the left has.

You've been watching too much "<i>ER</i>". When a patient has a terminal illness, their condition is incurable...they are going to die. Now, it boils down to how they die. Do they die at the end of a long and debilitating terminal illness, putting but them and their families through hellish amounts of pain...? Or, do they live life to its fullest until THEY decide to shuffel off this mortal coil? It's not for you or I to decide...It is wholly their decision. It is not euthanasia...The pateint must be able to provide a written request for medications, and teir terminal condition must be certified by both their attending physician and a consulting physician. The patient, and no one else, holds decision making power as to when to take whatever medication has been prescribed.

As for lack of respect for life, I'll tell you the same thing I said elswhere on another topic...

<blockquote>Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7:5</blockquote>

 

[MissileMan]

I am surprised you cant comprehend a difference between naturally dying quickly and quietly and by artificial means. No one is preventing people who decide to let nature take its course from doing so. The issue is whether people have the right to terminate other lives or their own artificially because they are unwilling to face the challenge of living. There is a huge distinction here.

I hear you saying let nature takes it's course, let God's will be done. How is the shortening of a life through artificial means any different than the maintaining or extension of life through artificial means? Why do think it's ok for a doctor to choose to let someone die when they have the means to keep them alive?

 

[dilloduck]

I hear you saying let nature takes it's course, let God's will be done. How is the shortening of a life through artificial means any different than the maintaining or extension of life through artificial means? Why do think it's ok for a doctor to choose to let someone die when they have the means to keep them alive?

Just think of it as a late term abortion

 

[Bullypulpit]

I hear you saying let nature takes it's course, let God's will be done. How is the shortening of a life through artificial means any different than the maintaining or extension of life through artificial means? Why do think it's ok for a doctor to choose to let someone die when they have the means to keep them alive?

IN the case of Oregon's "Death with Dignity Act", it is the patient who is deciding when it is time for them to end their lives not a physician. But in hospital ICU's it's not uncommon for the attending physicians as well as consulting physicians to confer on cases where futility of care is evident. They tehn speak with the families about withdrawing life support. This does not occur in a vaccum however. There is pastoral care involved, social workers, and in some cases a system ethicist for the hospital system.

All together, they help the families arrive at the best decision for both the patient and themselves. And they will honor the decision the patients family arrives at.

Secondly, we, as a society, have yet to successfully deal with issues surrounding quality of life versus quantity of life. Until we come to grips with those issues, the debate will continue.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I hear you saying let nature takes it's course, let God's will be done. How is the shortening of a life through artificial means any different than the maintaining or extension of life through artificial means? Why do think it's ok for a doctor to choose to let someone die when they have the means to keep them alive?

IN the case of Oregon's "Death with Dignity Act", it is the patient who is deciding when it is time for them to end their lives not a physician. But in hospital ICU's it's not uncommon for the attending physicians as well as consulting physicians to confer on cases where futility of care is evident. They then speak with the families about withdrawing life support. This does not occur in a vaccum however. There is pastoral care involved, social workers, and in some cases a system ethicist for the hospital system. All together, they help the families arrive at the best decision for both the patient and themselves. And they will honor the decision the patients family arrives at.

Secondly, we, as a society, have yet to successfully deal with issues surrounding quality of life versus quantity of life. Until we come to grips with those issues, the debate will continue.

 

[no1tovote4]

Because doctors take an oath to save lives not end lives.

And those that wish to kill themselves can do it just as peacefully without having to put a gun to their heads. It's selfish to put someone else in a position of taking someone else's life. No one can play God but God.

And this article shows how easily a "humane society" can become a culture of death...

Once again, the hippocratic oath is no longer taken by doctors in the US. A few do so by choice but the vast majority of doctors take no such oath.

 

[no1tovote4]

As Ive stated before, if somone really wants be allowed to die that's one thing, when a doctor steps in or a relative steps in and actually takes the life, that's a whole different thing entirely. Anyone can commit suicide if they wish, or if they don't want to be kept alive with machines that's perfectly understandable as long as it's their idea, and not someone else making that decision. What's happening in the Netherlands is Horrific and in no way indicative of people "dying with dignity".

Now I agree with this. The person must ask for it, just as with a do not resusitate order. As a firefighter we go to houses where people have these orders occasionally. It is sometimes hard, but you cannot legally treat those people without incurring a battery charge.

I don't think Doctors should be able to decide when you go, I think that may have much to do with how much the patient may cost to their socialist medicine, the person must have a certified and signed document requesting such a thing.

 

[Johnney]

so your going to look into the eyes of some form of relative whose got some type of terminal whatever (being very vague here), that the body has built up a resistance to pain meds because they have had it so long, and has <b>at least</b> 6 months left and tell them sorry, id rather see you sit in pain for the next 6 months than have you finally find peace and quiet in the afterlife?

how noble.

this was to everyone, and no one at the same time.

 

[Avatar4321]

You've been watching too much "<i>ER</i>". When a patient has a terminal illness, their condition is incurable...they are going to die. Now, it boils down to how they die. Do they die at the end of a long and debilitating terminal illness, putting but them and their families through hellish amounts of pain...? Or, do they live life to its fullest until THEY decide to shuffel off this mortal coil? It's not for you or I to decide...It is wholly their decision. It is not euthanasia...The pateint must be able to provide a written request for medications, and teir terminal condition must be certified by both their attending physician and a consulting physician. The patient, and no one else, holds decision making power as to when to take whatever medication has been prescribed.

As for lack of respect for life, I'll tell you the same thing I said elswhere on another topic...

<blockquote>Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7:5</blockquote>

You seem to totally be missing the point. They have no more right to take their own life than does anyone else. How on earth can you live life to the fullest if you terminate your life? The whole concept is illogical.

Oh and btw if you are going to quote scripture, you might want to choose one that you could possibly find some sort of connection to the topic on.

 

[Johnney]

You seem to totally be missing the point. They have no more right to take their own life than does anyone else. How on earth can you live life to the fullest if you terminate your life? The whole concept is illogical.

now how is the person who measures how full your life is and at what point in it it gets full?
seriously. i feel ive had a full life, and i could go at anytime and be happy about it. not saying i have my finger on the trigger or anything. but shuold i jsut drop dead when im "full".

and to me suicide isnt a bad thing. people tell me that all the time. its a bad thing. bullshit. when someone wants to go let them.

 

[Avatar4321]

so your going to look into the eyes of some form of relative whose got some type of terminal whatever (being very vague here), that the body has built up a resistance to pain meds because they have had it so long, and has <b>at least</b> 6 months left and tell them sorry, id rather see you sit in pain for the next 6 months than have you finally find peace and quiet in the afterlife?

how noble.

this was to everyone, and no one at the same time.

You seem under the impression that you can find peace and quiet in the afterlife if you terminate your life. This is a myth.

The fact choosing to terminate your life because you dont want to deal with pain is a purely selfish act. It doesnt matter if you dont want to see a family member sit through pain. it doesnt matter if they want to sit through the pain. Neither of you has the right to terminate life for selfish reasons. Why would you want to rob your loved one of the 6 months they might have left with their loved ones?

 

[no1tovote4]

You seem under the impression that you can find peace and quiet in the afterlife if you terminate your life. This is a myth.

The fact choosing to terminate your life because you dont want to deal with pain is a purely selfish act. It doesnt matter if you dont want to see a family member sit through pain. it doesnt matter if they want to sit through the pain. Neither of you has the right to terminate life for selfish reasons. Why would you want to rob your loved one of the 6 months they might have left with their loved ones?

Only to your religion, suicide is not a sin in the Buddhist tradition if done for the correct reason.

Sometimes choosing to end your pain so others do not suffer as well is equally important as ending your own pain and not necessarily selfish at all.

 

[dilloduck]

<blockquote>Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7:5</blockquote>

[/QUOTE]

Bully. You REALLY need to examine this argument, realize the implications and NEVER use it again. Since all people err there would be no one left with the right to make a differentiation between right and wrong and no one left to teach others not to make the same mistakes they have. Using this mentality if you have EVER lied, you have lost your "right" to be angry when someone else does. You have no problem criticizing Bush for DOING THE SAME THINGS YOU HAVE !

What the hell kind of pedestal are YOU standing on to be permitted to bash anyone you like ? Lay some credentials out for us to see Bully !!

 

[Bonnie]

IN the case of Oregon's "Death with Dignity Act", it is the patient who is deciding when it is time for them to end their lives not a physician. But in hospital ICU's it's not uncommon for the attending physicians as well as consulting physicians to confer on cases where futility of care is evident. They tehn speak with the families about withdrawing life support. This does not occur in a vaccum however. There is pastoral care involved, social workers, and in some cases a system ethicist for the hospital system.

All together, they help the families arrive at the best decision for both the patient and themselves. And they will honor the decision the patients family arrives at.

Secondly, we, as a society, have yet to successfully deal with issues surrounding quality of life versus quantity of life. Until we come to grips with those issues, the debate will continue.

Bully aren't you the least bit concerned that this will spiral into something much closer to what the Netherlands are doing??