Let the States Decide- ALA Supreme Court Justice urges Defiance- Gay Marraige

[bodecea]

OK, let's subject it to the test. Being black changed who you can marry, a violation of the 14th amendment. Being gay doesn't change who you can marry. Oops, we subjected gay marriage to the test, and it failed...

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian.

No, a straight woman cannot marry another woman either. The law is applied equally. Fail.

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian

A straight can't marry another lesbian either. Fail.

Actually, they can...and have...it's happened a lot. Called an arranged marriage.

 

[kaz]

So scientists looking at studies is just their opinion on the studies. Yeah, okay...however, their opinion certainly holds more weight than yours does it not? Has your opinion been published in a peer reviewed journal like the one I provided? No.

You didn't present any study, you presented an article written which only stated the conclusion of the person who read the study.

Gender and gender roles in parenting, in study after study, have been shown to have no bearing on children's outcomes

The number of which you have presented remains at zero.

First of all, you know nothing about what studies even are. No academic would make any of the sweeping statements you did were proven by studies. Studies draw specific conclusions in specified situations with specific criteria, they are not sweeping proof of anything. I doubt you have any college degree with your preposterous statements about what any study on any subject means, there is no chance you have a graduate degree.

Second, the logical fallacy you are committing is faulty generalization. Well, your kids are fine, so there is no difference. The biggest irony in that is it doesn't refute anything I said. And as I keep saying, I am in the same boat as your kids, single sex parent household. Mine was one, yours is two, but both are without a male parent. You don't grasp that. I never said anything about your kids, I have no reason to believe that they aren't fine or won't turn out fine. Hello, I did. I keep saying that.

That doesn't make it ideal in general. It's not. My sister double majored in biomedical research and math. She has a masters in math and a PhD in math where she specialized in theoretical statistics. She actually writes and does peer reviews endless statistical studies and is an expert in running studies on keeping lead away from children which is used by HUD, the EPA and congress to write legislation for things like how to renovate a house with lead based paint. She also had a devoted mother who with a deadbeat father still gave us ever opportunity to succeed in life. How would your unnamed studies have rated her to have turned out?

BTW, I'm one year and one month older than her, everyone has seen how she turned to me as the father figure. I point out to show how little older than her I was and how unequipped I was to provide that until we were well into our adulthood. She has had endless boyfriends, but never got married and even she admits she torpedoed the best relationships herself because she likes to have sex and spend time with men, but she can't relate to them with a father who wasn't there and an older brother who wasn't old enough to be a sufficient substitute. Yet I was the only candidate because other men even being older were no where intelligent enough to handle her. Only I was. How is a study going to rate that exactly?

My youngest brother on the other hand was 5 years younger than me, and while I wasn't old enough to be a true father to him, the difference was enough I was a far better substitute for him than I was my sister. He learned from me positives and negatives of being a man, both of which are also provided by real fathers. He went to the Naval Academy, got a masters in statistics from Georgia Tech and has been happily married for 23 years. They have a great relationship.

As for me, I screwed around until into my twenties getting an A in my hardest class and a C in my easiest. I finally got serous, then as I had my own kids I realized I was pretending to be what a husband and father are becasue I had no example. I was a father before I had one, before I was even grown. I finally started to decide I had to figure out who I was and be that husband and father and stop doing things because of my perception of what my father did before he left or what I thought other men did. That began the process for me to peace and security I had never known in my life.

Now explain to me how an academic study measures that to claim the sex of parents doesn't matter in child rearing.

 

[kaz]

OK, let's subject it to the test. Being black changed who you can marry, a violation of the 14th amendment. Being gay doesn't change who you can marry. Oops, we subjected gay marriage to the test, and it failed...

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian.

No, a straight woman cannot marry another woman either. The law is applied equally. Fail.

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian

A straight can't marry another lesbian either. Fail.

Actually, they can...and have...it's happened a lot. Called an arranged marriage.

Where there is no gay marriage, a straight woman can marry a lesbian? You're going to have to prove that.

 

[Syriusly]

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian.

No, a straight woman cannot marry another woman either. The law is applied equally. Fail.

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian

A straight can't marry another lesbian either. Fail.

Actually, they can...and have...it's happened a lot. Called an arranged marriage.

Where there is no gay marriage, a straight woman can marry a lesbian? You're going to have to prove that.

There is only marriage. And in a few states, that doesn't include same gender couples. In the rest a straight woman could marry a lesbian just fine.

 

[Seawytch]

So scientists looking at studies is just their opinion on the studies. Yeah, okay...however, their opinion certainly holds more weight than yours does it not? Has your opinion been published in a peer reviewed journal like the one I provided? No.

You didn't present any study, you presented an article written which only stated the conclusion of the person who read the study.

Gender and gender roles in parenting, in study after study, have been shown to have no bearing on children's outcomes

The number of which you have presented remains at zero.

First of all, you know nothing about what studies even are. No academic would make any of the sweeping statements you did were proven by studies. Studies draw specific conclusions in specified situations with specific criteria, they are not sweeping proof of anything. I doubt you have any college degree with your preposterous statements about what any study on any subject means, there is no chance you have a graduate degree.

Second, the logical fallacy you are committing is faulty generalization. Well, your kids are fine, so there is no difference. The biggest irony in that is it doesn't refute anything I said. And as I keep saying, I am in the same boat as your kids, single sex parent household. Mine was one, yours is two, but both are without a male parent. You don't grasp that. I never said anything about your kids, I have no reason to believe that they aren't fine or won't turn out fine. Hello, I did. I keep saying that.

That doesn't make it ideal in general. It's not. My sister double majored in biomedical research and math. She has a masters in math and a PhD in math where she specialized in theoretical statistics. She actually writes and does peer reviews endless statistical studies and is an expert in running studies on keeping lead away from children which is used by HUD, the EPA and congress to write legislation for things like how to renovate a house with lead based paint. She also had a devoted mother who with a deadbeat father still gave us ever opportunity to succeed in life. How would your unnamed studies have rated her to have turned out?

BTW, I'm one year and one month older than her, everyone has seen how she turned to me as the father figure. I point out to show how little older than her I was and how unequipped I was to provide that until we were well into our adulthood. She has had endless boyfriends, but never got married and even she admits she torpedoed the best relationships herself because she likes to have sex and spend time with men, but she can't relate to them with a father who wasn't there and an older brother who wasn't old enough to be a sufficient substitute. Yet I was the only candidate because other men even being older were no where intelligent enough to handle her. Only I was. How is a study going to rate that exactly?

My youngest brother on the other hand was 5 years younger than me, and while I wasn't old enough to be a true father to him, the difference was enough I was a far better substitute for him than I was my sister. He learned from me positives and negatives of being a man, both of which are also provided by real fathers. He went to the Naval Academy, got a masters in statistics from Georgia Tech and has been happily married for 23 years. They have a great relationship.

As for me, I screwed around until into my twenties getting an A in my hardest class and a C in my easiest. I finally got serous, then as I had my own kids I realized I was pretending to be what a husband and father are becasue I had no example. I was a father before I had one, before I was even grown. I finally started to decide I had to figure out who I was and be that husband and father and stop doing things because of my perception of what my father did before he left or what I thought other men did. That began the process for me to peace and security I had never known in my life.

Now explain to me how an academic study measures that to claim the sex of parents doesn't matter in child rearing.

Wow...how can years of scientific study compare to Kaz's personal story? Come on, you're smarter than that. Individual experience is not research...and research shows, without a doubt, that our children are at no disadvantage to yours, period, end of discussion. A discussion I might add that has no bearing on civil marriage. Children are not required for civil marriage and civil marriage is not required to have children.

 

[Seawytch]

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian.

No, a straight woman cannot marry another woman either. The law is applied equally. Fail.

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian

A straight can't marry another lesbian either. Fail.

Actually, they can...and have...it's happened a lot. Called an arranged marriage.

Where there is no gay marriage, a straight woman can marry a lesbian? You're going to have to prove that.

No, of course not. If there is no marriage equality a woman can't marry another woman anymore. Of course, it used to happen back before technology kept such good track of us and women could go through life pretending to be men...going so far as to serve in the civil war and such, but I digress.

Gays don't want to marry members of the opposite sex anymore than Mildred Loving wanted to marry a black man. She wanted to marry who she fell in love with, just as we do. Racists wanted to discriminate based on race, anti gay bigots want to discriminate based on gender. There is no difference in the discrimination and there will be no difference in the eventual outcome...gays legally married to each other, the people they fall in love with and want to marry.

Discrimination based solely on animus is the same either way.

 

[bodecea]

Marriage is a purely private Act and natural right.

So why are gheys pushing for state marriage licenses?

Why wouldn't we?

 

[kaz]

No, a straight woman cannot marry another woman either. The law is applied equally. Fail.

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian

A straight can't marry another lesbian either. Fail.

Actually, they can...and have...it's happened a lot. Called an arranged marriage.

Where there is no gay marriage, a straight woman can marry a lesbian? You're going to have to prove that.

There is only marriage. And in a few states, that doesn't include same gender couples. In the rest a straight woman could marry a lesbian just fine.

Thanks for providing that obvious and useless information everyone knows and has nothing to do with the point I made, it really advances the discussion

 

[kaz]

Let's look at the question I asked.

Now explain to me how an academic study measures that to claim the sex of parents doesn't matter in child rearing.

I gave you a complicated scenario. A true one, but with factors where quantifiable results are positive but unquantifiable ones are mixed. Obviously you don't know anything at all in any way about studies, so just so you know, they are built from data. Since you keep stating, with a dearth of support, that study after study proves there is no difference (something no study would claim), I gave you a chance to show how a study would incorporate my one data point.

Here is your answer to the question.

Wow...how can years of scientific study compare to Kaz's personal story? Come on, you're smarter than that. Individual experience is not research...and research shows, without a doubt, that our children are at no disadvantage to yours, period, end of discussion. A discussion I might add that has no bearing on civil marriage. Children are not required for civil marriage and civil marriage is not required to have children.

Wow, the list of fallacies in here is endless, LOL. Exactly what I expected. I didn't need a study to show you can't follow a discussion or coherently answer a question...

 

[kaz]

Gays don't want to marry members of the opposite sex

And give me another law which changes based on what you want.

I don't eat meat other than fish and seafood. I actually don't. So in deer hunting season, can I fish for game out of season? I don't want to eat deer, I don't eat deer. I do eat fish. The law has to accommodate me, right? That is your claim.

 

[Seawytch]

Let's look at the question I asked.

Now explain to me how an academic study measures that to claim the sex of parents doesn't matter in child rearing.

I gave you a complicated scenario. A true one, but with factors where quantifiable results are positive but unquantifiable ones are mixed. Obviously you don't know anything at all in any way about studies, so just so you know, they are built from data. Since you keep stating, with a dearth of support, that study after study proves there is no difference (something no study would claim), I gave you a chance to show how a study would incorporate my one data point.

Here is your answer to the question.

Wow...how can years of scientific study compare to Kaz's personal story? Come on, you're smarter than that. Individual experience is not research...and research shows, without a doubt, that our children are at no disadvantage to yours, period, end of discussion. A discussion I might add that has no bearing on civil marriage. Children are not required for civil marriage and civil marriage is not required to have children.

Wow, the list of fallacies in here is endless, LOL. Exactly what I expected. I didn't need a study to show you can't follow a discussion or coherently answer a question...

The question was answered. Our children are fine and the discussion is immaterial to this thread since children have no bearing on civil marriage. You think having a mother and father is "ideal". That's nice...and your opinion, one that is not supported by evidence. What evidence and studies have shown (the article I linked to referenced the study that appeared in an actual medical journal) is that gender doesn't matter in parenting, period. The children of same sex parents are at no disadvantage to yours and there is no difference in the outcomes of the children. What studies show as ideal is two parents, period. You can have your opinion on the ideal...it's what society has ingrained in us to believe and you've obviously gone along with the flock, but studies are showing it not actually to be true.

Gotta take the kids to school and head to work. Ciao, darlin'.

 

[bodecea]

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian.

No, a straight woman cannot marry another woman either. The law is applied equally. Fail.

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian

A straight can't marry another lesbian either. Fail.

Actually, they can...and have...it's happened a lot. Called an arranged marriage.

Where there is no gay marriage, a straight woman can marry a lesbian? You're going to have to prove that.

Ah...now you are saying "straight woman" when before you just said "straight".

 

[danielpalos]

OK, let's subject it to the test. Being black changed who you can marry, a violation of the 14th amendment. Being gay doesn't change who you can marry. Oops, we subjected gay marriage to the test, and it failed...

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian.

No, a straight woman cannot marry another woman either. The law is applied equally. Fail.

And no white man could marry a black woman. Restricting who can marry whom in both cases.

The restrictions themselves must meet constitutional standards. It must meet a specific legislative end, have a very good reason and serve a valid state interest.

Gay marriage bans can do none of these things. Nor could interracial marriage bans.

Word games aside, again, being black changed who you could marry, being gay doesn't. That is irrefutable.

How does that work for the several citizens in the several States? Did you know that our supreme law of the land was Intelligently Designed to be both, gender and race neutral, from Inception.

 

[Syriusly]

Overwhelmingly probably true, but you can't conclude that without knowing the actual cause of gayness. In theory, it could not be behavioral or genetic but have a psychological root based on relationships to heterosexual parents. Like if you are a girl, something about your relationship with your male and female parents makes you desire women not men. And vice versa. I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying we don't know what causes gay, so we can't be certain about anything until we do.

That's somewhat reasonable. With one caveat: we don't have a definitive answer. But we do have quite a bit of evidence that indicates that children of same sex parents aren't any more likely to be gay than straight parents.

So we do have some pretty strong indications of what the cause isn't; exposure to gay people.

I agree on that, I find it highly unlikely that heterosexual parents would influence a kid to be gay unless the kid really is on the line between straight and gay anyway.

What is a downside though for gay adoption is that people evolved with a mother and father who have clearly different personalities and roles in child raising. It's ideal a child have both a male and female parent to gain both experiences. The same experience with two parents of the same sex does not make up for one relationship with each of two sexes.

I hear what you're saying. But there have been numerous studies on the topic and the kids are fine. I suspect any possible 'disadvantage' associated with same sex parents is more than mitigated by the fact that all children in a same sex union are intentional. Which means the parents want them and have a much better opportunity to prepare for them...both emotionally and financially.

Exactly...there have been numerous studies on the topic and the children of gays and lesbians are at no disadvantage to those of straights. There are no differences in outcomes.

What is ideal is for children to have two parents...their gender is immaterial. (except when it comes to lactation)

Whether or not children raised by same gender couples end up as exactly as well oriented as children raised by opposite couples is really a stupid argument.

Why?

Because children are raised in all sorts of environments, and as Kaz points out, they do- or they don't turn out okay.

Kaz says he missed having a father. Other children miss having any parent at all. And then some children are just raised by horrible parents.

We don't tell heterosexual parents "prove to us you will be a good parent"- instead as long as they are not physically harming the children they can raise them pretty much how they want- look at Stevie the racist bragging how his kids were all raised to hate blacks and Jews.

The point is that none of this is relevant to marriage. We do not require people to get married before they have children- or married after they have children. We don't prevent ;married parents from divorcing.

We don't require that parents be 'ideal parents' - we don't really even have any expectations that parents will be 'ideal parents'- but we can hope that parents will step up and try to be ideal parents to the best of their abilities.

And having observed friends of mine who happen to be parents who happen to be gay- thats what I see. Just like I see that with our other friends who happen to be parents.

 

[Syriusly]

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian

A straight can't marry another lesbian either. Fail.

Actually, they can...and have...it's happened a lot. Called an arranged marriage.

Where there is no gay marriage, a straight woman can marry a lesbian? You're going to have to prove that.

There is only marriage. And in a few states, that doesn't include same gender couples. In the rest a straight woman could marry a lesbian just fine.

Thanks for providing that obvious and useless information everyone knows and has nothing to do with the point I made, it really advances the discussion

To be fair- you haven't made a point so far- all you have made are spurious claims.

 

[bodecea]

So scientists looking at studies is just their opinion on the studies. Yeah, okay...however, their opinion certainly holds more weight than yours does it not? Has your opinion been published in a peer reviewed journal like the one I provided? No.

You didn't present any study, you presented an article written which only stated the conclusion of the person who read the study.

Gender and gender roles in parenting, in study after study, have been shown to have no bearing on children's outcomes

The number of which you have presented remains at zero.

First of all, you know nothing about what studies even are. No academic would make any of the sweeping statements you did were proven by studies. Studies draw specific conclusions in specified situations with specific criteria, they are not sweeping proof of anything. I doubt you have any college degree with your preposterous statements about what any study on any subject means, there is no chance you have a graduate degree.

Second, the logical fallacy you are committing is faulty generalization. Well, your kids are fine, so there is no difference. The biggest irony in that is it doesn't refute anything I said. And as I keep saying, I am in the same boat as your kids, single sex parent household. Mine was one, yours is two, but both are without a male parent. You don't grasp that. I never said anything about your kids, I have no reason to believe that they aren't fine or won't turn out fine. Hello, I did. I keep saying that.

That doesn't make it ideal in general. It's not. My sister double majored in biomedical research and math. She has a masters in math and a PhD in math where she specialized in theoretical statistics. She actually writes and does peer reviews endless statistical studies and is an expert in running studies on keeping lead away from children which is used by HUD, the EPA and congress to write legislation for things like how to renovate a house with lead based paint. She also had a devoted mother who with a deadbeat father still gave us ever opportunity to succeed in life. How would your unnamed studies have rated her to have turned out?

BTW, I'm one year and one month older than her, everyone has seen how she turned to me as the father figure. I point out to show how little older than her I was and how unequipped I was to provide that until we were well into our adulthood. She has had endless boyfriends, but never got married and even she admits she torpedoed the best relationships herself because she likes to have sex and spend time with men, but she can't relate to them with a father who wasn't there and an older brother who wasn't old enough to be a sufficient substitute. Yet I was the only candidate because other men even being older were no where intelligent enough to handle her. Only I was. How is a study going to rate that exactly?

My youngest brother on the other hand was 5 years younger than me, and while I wasn't old enough to be a true father to him, the difference was enough I was a far better substitute for him than I was my sister. He learned from me positives and negatives of being a man, both of which are also provided by real fathers. He went to the Naval Academy, got a masters in statistics from Georgia Tech and has been happily married for 23 years. They have a great relationship.

As for me, I screwed around until into my twenties getting an A in my hardest class and a C in my easiest. I finally got serous, then as I had my own kids I realized I was pretending to be what a husband and father are becasue I had no example. I was a father before I had one, before I was even grown. I finally started to decide I had to figure out who I was and be that husband and father and stop doing things because of my perception of what my father did before he left or what I thought other men did. That began the process for me to peace and security I had never known in my life.

Now explain to me how an academic study measures that to claim the sex of parents doesn't matter in child rearing.

Here's your fail argument.....Not everyone is like you.

 

[Silhouette]

The question was answered. 1. Our children are fine and the discussion is immaterial to this thread since children have no bearing on civil marriage. 2. You think having a mother and father is "ideal". That's nice...and your opinion, one that is not supported by evidence. 3. What evidence and studies have shown (the article I linked to referenced the study that appeared in an actual medical journal) is that gender doesn't matter in parenting, period....
.

1. Children, who cannot vote and are therefore the most underpriveleged class in the marriage conversation, are THE MOST IMPORTANT members of the marriage contract. If you don't believe me, go to family law court and see who gets primary coverage on what happens to whom and why.

2. The Prince's Trust study, the largest survey of its kind, done on over 2,000 young adults who are no longer under the influence of the parents at home, and who are self reporting, say that not having a role model OF THEIR SAME GENDER as they were growing up is causing them depression, suicidal thoughts, indigency and a feeling of not belonging in the world.

http://www.princes-trust.org.uk/pdf/Youth_Index_jan2011.pdf Page 8 (the left side on the green background)

In addition to indexing the happiness and wellbeing of young people, the report explores some significant demographic differences between young people. They include a comparison between those not in education employment or training with their peers...those without a positive role model of their gender in their lives (women without a positive female role model and men without a positive male role model) and their peers...those with fewer than five GCSEs graded A* to C (or equivalent) with their peers... Respondents are asked how happy and confident they are in different areas of their life. The responses are converted to a numerical scale, resulting in a number out of 100-- with 100 representing entirely happy or confident and zero being not at all happy or confident.

Page 10 (The bold largest heading above the material that followed it)

Young people without a role model of the same gender in their lives

Teens without parent role model are 67 per cent less likely to get a job Daily Mail Online

Young men with no male role models in their lives and women without a mother figure struggle to keep their lives on track, a hard-hitting report warns today. The Prince’s Trust youth index, the largest survey of its kind, found that....67 per cent more likely to be unemployed than their counterparts. They are also significantly more likely to stay unemployed for longer than their peers, the report suggests....It found that young men with no male role model are 50 per cent more likely to abuse drugs and young females in the corresponding position are significantly more likely to drink to excess..

Young men with no male role model to look up to were twice as likely to turn or consider turning to crime as a result of being unemployed...The report, which was based on interviews with 2,170 16 to 25-year-olds...These young men are also three times more likely to feel down or depressed all of the time and significantly more likely to admit that they cannot remember the last time they felt proud...They are also significantly less likely to feel happy and confident than those with male role models, according to the figures....The Prince’s Trust report, which was carried out by YouGov, suggests young people without male role models are more than twice as likely to lack a sense of belonging.

3. You know it's funny when you trace the funding back on certain studies that aren't as large or compreshensive or ethically and scientifically pure as the Prince's Trust survey... the ones you like to cite, funded by the APA...

Remember how the LGBT-APA does "science" nowadays? That's right, "small samples", discarding facts and preferring group-think consensus that is audited by people in positions of power at the APA...

"Consensual Qualitative Research: A Practical Resource for Investigating Social Science Phenomena...

consensual qualitative research (CQR). CQR is an 1 inductive method that is characterized by 2 open-ended interview questions, 3 small samples, a 4 reliance on words over numbers, the importance of context, an integration of multiple viewpoints, and consensus of the research team http://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4313031.aspx

 

[kaz]

No, a straight woman cannot marry another woman either. The law is applied equally. Fail.

The same sex marriage bans absolutely changes who you can marry. As a lesbian couldn't marry another lesbian

A straight can't marry another lesbian either. Fail.

Actually, they can...and have...it's happened a lot. Called an arranged marriage.

Where there is no gay marriage, a straight woman can marry a lesbian? You're going to have to prove that.

Ah...now you are saying "straight woman" when before you just said "straight".

Word parsing and duh, you don't get it is such a powerful argument, thanks for that.

 

[Syriusly]

The question was answered. 1. Our children are fine and the discussion is immaterial to this thread since children have no bearing on civil marriage. 2. You think having a mother and father is "ideal". That's nice...and your opinion, one that is not supported by evidence. 3. What evidence and studies have shown (the article I linked to referenced the study that appeared in an actual medical journal) is that gender doesn't matter in parenting, period....
.

1. Children, who cannot vote and are therefore the most underpriveleged class in the marriage conversation, are THE MOST IMPORTANT members of the marriage contract]

Then why are you against children?

Preventing children of gay couples from marrying only ensures that the children of gay parents don't have married parents.

As Justice Kennedy said:

"There is an immediate legal injury and that's the voice of these children," he said. "There's some 40,000 children in California, according to the Red Brief, that live with same-sex parents, and they want their parents to have full recognition and full status. The voice of those children is important in this case, don't you think?"

 

[kaz]

[the discussion is immaterial to this thread since children have no bearing on civil marriage.

The rest you were in your own world tripping, your reading skills are horrendous. But as for this, so what is the purpose of government marriage? If government marriage has nothing to do with children, what is the purpose? Is it to validate you and who you sleep with?

This may be the strongest statement I've ever read against gay marriage as being pointless to society.