Kiev violated Minsk peace agreement

[ESay]

1.You're right about Gas Contract, but CONTRACT is a key word there, Timoshenko has signed it, so it should be observed till it expires. And the question you asked "By the way, if I were you I would think about why Russian rulers give the so-called junta discounts on the price of gas and don’t demand early repayment of the debt of 3 billion dollars" does not show Russia as aggressor, on the contrary.

Yes, it shows that Russia is virtually supporting the so-called junta. It is a little bit suspicious, isn’t it?

2. The minimum salary in Ukraine is now lower than in the majority of African countries and keeps catastrophically dropping, while Poroshenko's income increased 17 times (if I am not mistaken).
Here is what NY TIMES writes:

It is a very good article. Thanks. But I don’t understand what you are trying to convince me. If I remember correctly, I have never said that I am an admirer of Poroshenko or Yatsenyuk or something like that. Ukraine has huge economic and social problems and the current government isn’t doing enough (to put it mildly) to solve them.

But, I have to admit that the article says nothing about salaries or Poroshenko’s income.

Are you kidding me thinking that EU needs a country like that??? Tell me at least one good reason.

Well I am acutely aware that my English isn’t perfect. But I thought that my previous post was more or less understandable. Tell me please what exactly is unclear for you in this statement:
Of course the EU isn’t in a hurry. Because we must do much in order to achieve European standards and it will take a long time.

I completely agree with one Ukrainian politician, who came down from the scene some time ago, who once said: We shouldn’t try to bring Ukraine to Europe, but instead we should try to build Europe in Ukraine.

3. The fact that Nazi Right Sector attacks the protestors still remains the fact. And their leader Dmity Yarosh is an official member of Ukrainian Parliament.

Yes, it is true. The Right Sector is a difficult question.

 

[Stratford57]

QUOTE="hipeter924, post: 11537897, member: 19313"][/QUOTE]

On Sunday (just in a few hours after I wrote my post N 15) about suppressing all the opposition’s protests in Ukraine, an anti-government protest on the Independence Square in Kiev was crushed by masked men. The Party "Right Sector", that participated in the violent Putsch, fights for the current Ukrainian regime and advises its army, was allegedly involved in the protests as RT reports.

Late on Sunday evening, around 50 to 100 men wearing balaclavas rampaged through the camp. They tore down tents and sent the protesters scattering.
Placards at the protest read: “Out with [Prime Minister Arseny] Yatsenyuk and his reforms” and “I’m on hunger strike against administrative neglect.”
I wonder, if any Western news have reported about that.
Masked attackers break up tent camp on Kiev s Maidan protest leader expelled from the country RT News

If Yanuckovitch did the same to Maidan at the very beginning, can you imagine how much official Washington would be screaming?! (And it remains silent about crushing of anti-government protest in Kiev). Actually, if Yanuckovitch took an early care of Maidan protests, there wouldn’t be hundreds in prison, thousands killed/injured (many civilians lost armes, legs, eyes or even all above including the kids, like Vanya Voronov) and about a million houses ruined in Eastern Ukraine now.

The protestors of 2013/14, who came to the power in Ukraine after the coup, now are eliminating all opposition’s protests. So, their protests were legal and all the others are illegal? That’s one of the reasons (but not the only one!) we call them junta.

And watch official Washington: it’s got a nice habit to provoke a conflict in some country (far away from their borders) and then to start blaming and punishing (!) whoever they want for that conflict (the most recent examples have been Iraq, Libya, Syria and Ukraine) . There is a good Russian saying: “The one who yells ‘Catch the thief!’ the most loudly, is the thief.”

“Official Washington wants the whole world to believe: it fights for the human rights. But on their way in fighting for human rights they don’t mind to destroy whole countries with millions humans there, whom they prefer just not to notice.” (Michail Zadornov)

 

[ESay]

If Yanuckovitch did the same to Maidan at the very beginning, can you imagine how much official Washington would be screaming?! (And it remains silent about crushing of anti-government protest in Kiev). Actually, if Yanuckovitch took an early care of Maidan protests, there wouldn’t be hundreds in prison, thousands killed/injured (many civilians lost armes, legs, eyes or even all above including the kids, like Vanya Voronov) and about a million houses ruined in Eastern Ukraine now.

You are either don’t remember anything, or ...
Timeline of the Euromaidan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
On the night of 30 November 2013 at 04:00, armed with batons, stun grenades, and tear gas, Berkut special police units attacked and dispersed all protesters from Maidan Nezalezhnosti while suppressing mobile phone communications.[28][29] The police attacked not only the protesters (most of whom didn't or failed to put up resistance) but also other civilians in the vicinity of Maidan Nezalezhnosti, when the Berkut forces chased unarmed people several hundreds of meters and continued to beat them with batons and feet.

 

[Stratford57]

ESay, has Yanuckovich ever cleaned Maidan from protestors (I personally wish he did)??? If yes, than I’m the queen of England.

“The truth” about the events on Maidan, presented by Western and Ukrainian news, may not be the truth at all.

1. A BBC journalist has questioned one of protestors and has found out that:

Protest organizers have always denied any involvement - but one man told the BBC a different story.

Under attack, the police retreated from their position near the front line in the square, falling back along the street on the north side of Hotel Ukraine.

Protesters then advanced towards the police, where they were shot by retreating security forces and snipers from surrounding buildings.

BBC News - The untold story of the Maidan massacre


2.Here is a documentary about those events:

 

[ESay]

ESay, has Yanuckovich ever cleaned Maidan from protestors (I personally wish he did)??? If yes, than I’m the queen of England.

Actually he did, Your Majesty. I already gave the link above. You should remember how everything was beginning at the Maidan. There was so-called Students Maidan at the very beginning, and the police severely dispersed it (there was plenty of video at the time) under the pretext of the installation of New Year’s tree there. At the next day protesters returned at the Maidan even in a more number.

It seems to me you live in Southern or Eastern Ukraine (if it is true you are from Ukraine). And I clearly see a difference between us – a difference in a broader sense, between so-called Novorossia and other parts of Ukraine. You see the protesters simply as fascists, addicts, drinkers, and the like; as a group of people which emerged from nowhere to seize the power on behalf of their western masters. But the events at the Maidan had a great support among ordinary people, because regime of Yanukovych had discredited itself completely and many people didn’t (and still don’t) think that the union with Russia is the best choice. In my sity also was a mini-Maidan, even though Russian border is much closer than Lviv or Ternopil.

It is regretable, but we will never speak the same language.

The BBC article is good, but I am talking about the events which occured in the late November.

 

[Stratford57]

ESay, I never said a word about all the protestors being bad. Decent protestors were manipulated by violent protestors and all together it became a real threat, that’s why Yanukovich should have taken care of it as early as possible. Don’t put words in my mouth, please.

^The only achievement/improvement in Ukraine since the coup is a gay parade. So, that’s what 100 people on Maidan Square were killed for?

^ A young man in a poem above says: “I am leaving my home and going to join Ukrainian Army. Why? To give the lands of Donbass to Obama, to let Poroshenko the Jew earn another billion dollars… Don’t cry, mom, go ahead and take my place in protest on Maidan Square for me.”

 

[ESay]

ESay, I never said a word about all the protestors being bad. Decent protestors were manipulated by violent protestors and all together it became a real threat, that’s why Yanukovich should have taken care of it as early as possible. Don’t put words in my mouth, please.

Well, you haven’t said that. I wrote about sentiments many people in Eastern Ukraine agree with. Though, it is only my opinion, it is possible that I am wrong.

^ A young man in a poem above says: “I am leaving my home and going to join Ukrainian Army. Why? To give the lands of Donbass to Obama, to let Poroshenko the Jew earn another billion dollars… Don’t cry, mom, go ahead and take my place in protest on Maidan Square for me.”

To tell you the truth, our discussion reminds me a run in a circle.
Tell me please what is a silly poem supposed to mean? What point are you trying to prove by posting it? Who wrote it?
By the way, do you know who is depicted there?

^The only achievement/improvement in Ukraine since the coup is a gay parade. So, that’s what 100 people on Maidan Square were killed for?

There are no achievements yet. And I don’t know whether there will be any.
Could you tell me what achievements were during the Yanukovych regime which is deserved to mention about?

 

[Steinlight]

Who gives a shit? Putin could roll into Ukraine for all I care. If Russia implemented a coup in Canada and tried to tale over our military vases there is no way the US wouldn't do shit about it. Putin back rebels is what ant leader who wasn't a complete masochist and Pussy would do.


We shouldn't be involved in this eastern European shithole to begin with

 

[ESay]

Who gives a shit? Putin could roll into Ukraine for all I care. If Russia implemented a coup in Canada and tried to tale over our military vases there is no way the US wouldn't do shit about it. Putin back rebels is what ant leader who wasn't a complete masochist and Pussy would do.

We shouldn't be involved in this eastern European shithole to begin with

Then drag your asses from this shithole as fast as you can. Though your asses have been plunged in such shitholes so many times and so long that I hardly believe they can exist without it any longer than a day. Storytellers.

 

[Camp]

Who gives a shit? Putin could roll into Ukraine for all I care. If Russia implemented a coup in Canada and tried to tale over our military vases there is no way the US wouldn't do shit about it. Putin back rebels is what ant leader who wasn't a complete masochist and Pussy would do.

We shouldn't be involved in this eastern European shithole to begin with

Then drag your asses from this shithole as fast as you can. Though your asses have been plunged in such shitholes so many times and so long that I hardly believe they can exist without it any longer than a day. Storytellers.

We have a saying that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". The problem or group that makes the most noise is the one who will get attention. Sentiments like that of Steinlight are strong in war weary America. There are many who just don't want to be involved with feuding parties all over the world. While the sentiments of Steinlight, the people who do not want to be a kind of world police, are popular, they are fractured and competing with other groups that are perhaps just as noisy. They have to compete with citizens with east Euro roots, including Ukrainians, who are well organized into making lots of noise. They are the lobby groups that create a squeaky wheel needing grease. Those groups are partnered with commercial interest that see a threat to Ukraine as a threat to commercial interest all over eastern Europe. The wheel for support of Ukraine is demanding grease. Without it, the wheel will break off and the other wheels become useless.

 

[ESay]

We have a saying that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". The problem or group that makes the most noise is the one who will get attention. Sentiments like that of Steinlight are strong in war weary America. There are many who just don't want to be involved with feuding parties all over the world. While the sentiments of Steinlight, the people who do not want to be a kind of world police, are popular, they are fractured and competing with other groups that are perhaps just as noisy. They have to compete with citizens with east Euro roots, including Ukrainians, who are well organized into making lots of noise. They are the lobby groups that create a squeaky wheel needing grease. Those groups are partnered with commercial interest that see a threat to Ukraine as a threat to commercial interest all over eastern Europe. The wheel for support of Ukraine is demanding grease. Without it, the wheel will break off and the other wheels become useless.

I don’t understand properly what you are trying to say, to tell the truth. Of course, it is understandable that there are many people in the US who are not happy to see America being involved in wars and conflicts abroad. And considering all the wars America has been involved, I think a number of these people are great.
And some people are trying to use this sentiment to their own benefit; and, of course, there are people supporting ‘hawkish’ policy and there are those utilising this sentiment to their own benefit as well.

 

[Camp]

We have a saying that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". The problem or group that makes the most noise is the one who will get attention. Sentiments like that of Steinlight are strong in war weary America. There are many who just don't want to be involved with feuding parties all over the world. While the sentiments of Steinlight, the people who do not want to be a kind of world police, are popular, they are fractured and competing with other groups that are perhaps just as noisy. They have to compete with citizens with east Euro roots, including Ukrainians, who are well organized into making lots of noise. They are the lobby groups that create a squeaky wheel needing grease. Those groups are partnered with commercial interest that see a threat to Ukraine as a threat to commercial interest all over eastern Europe. The wheel for support of Ukraine is demanding grease. Without it, the wheel will break off and the other wheels become useless.

I don’t understand properly what you are trying to say, to tell the truth. Of course, it is understandable that there are many people in the US who are not happy to see America being involved in wars and conflicts abroad. And considering all the wars America has been involved, I think a number of these people are great.
And some people are trying to use this sentiment to their own benefit; and, of course, there are people supporting ‘hawkish’ policy and there are those utilising this sentiment to their own benefit as well.

I am saying I believe that support for Ukraine against Russia and bringing Ukraine closer to EU standards have a better chance of success than the chance of the US backing away from the situation. The anti war factions in the US does not have the power to stop the current policies of US support for Ukraine. I expect the support to increase.

 

[ESay]

Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification.
Well the chance of success is very vague. I wouldn’t recommend you to bet on it. )

I expect the support to increase.

More sanctions or weapons?

 

[Camp]

Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification.
Well the chance of success is very vague. I wouldn’t recommend you to bet on it. )

I expect the support to increase.

More sanctions or weapons?

I look for increased trade. Think we will see increased Ukraine agriculture products on American shelves.Someone has to figure out how to get more buckwheat into American diet.
Sanctions will probably increase, but be determined more by EU than US.
Weapons will probably depend on elections in 2016.

 

[hipeter924]

Who gives a shit? Putin could roll into Ukraine for all I care. If Russia implemented a coup in Canada and tried to tale over our military vases there is no way the US wouldn't do shit about it. Putin back rebels is what ant leader who wasn't a complete masochist and Pussy would do.

We shouldn't be involved in this eastern European shithole to begin with

Fortunately you aren't running the US military or the diplomatic service.

It is true that Ukraine is a pawn in a wider geo-political conflict that is between the US (through Nato), the EU (most notably the Baltic States and Poland), and Russia.

But it would be wrong to not 'give a shit', and let the crisis spin out of control.

The anti-Russia bloc*1, view Russia's actions in support of the Donbass rebels as breaking treaties and agreements, as well as violating international law.

The pro-Russia-block*2, view the US and EU as manipulating political events in Ukraine and ousting the Ukrainian government for one that aims to remove Ukraine from Russia's sphere of influence.

Regardless of who is 'right', it would be wrong to presume that because Ukraine is a small country away from the US that it doesn't matter.

*1: Obviously not everyone within it agrees with the sanctions or the actions against Russia's interests.
*2: Includes China and the former USSR states that joined the Eurasian Customs Union, though not all those states agree with Russia's actions.

 

[ESay]

I look for increased trade. Think we will see increased Ukraine agriculture products on American shelves.Someone has to figure out how to get more buckwheat into American diet.

I think that you shouldn’t share your opinion with someone who supports the union with Russia, because you may only strengthen they determination. )

The main point of support of the union (as far as I am concerned, at the very least) is the preservation of Ukrainian heavy industry, especially mechanical engineering. This point has a reason, because Russia is the main market for such production. The supporters of Russia also claim that without the union Ukraine will lost its industry and will become a supplier of raw materials (especially agriculture ones) to the West. It also makes sense, because it is obvious that Ukrainian manufactured goods are uncompetitive on the West market. So, here is an explanation why Eastern regions of Ukraine support the union, because there situated the main plants.

Weapons will probably depend on elections in 2016.

To tell the truth, I don’t understand why this question has been even raised. It is absolutely understandable that Ukrainian army is incapable to fight with Russia’s, no matter with American weapons or without. Our army needs a complete overhaul which takes years. The delivery of modern weapons without the overhaul is something like the installation of up-to-date gear into a severely battered Chinese car.

 

[hipeter924]

I look for increased trade. Think we will see increased Ukraine agriculture products on American shelves.Someone has to figure out how to get more buckwheat into American diet.

I think that you shouldn’t share your opinion with someone who supports the union with Russia, because you may only strengthen they determination. )

The main point of support of the union (as far as I am concerned, at the very least) is the preservation of Ukrainian heavy industry, especially mechanical engineering. This point has a reason, because Russia is the main market for such production. The supporters of Russia also claim that without the union Ukraine will lost its industry and will become a supplier of raw materials (especially agriculture ones) to the West. It also makes sense, because it is obvious that Ukrainian manufactured goods are uncompetitive on the West market. So, here is an explanation why Eastern regions of Ukraine support the union, because there situated the main plants.

Weapons will probably depend on elections in 2016.

To tell the truth, I don’t understand why this question has been even raised. It is absolutely understandable that Ukrainian army is incapable to fight with Russia’s, no matter with American weapons or without. Our army needs a complete overhaul which takes years. The delivery of modern weapons without the overhaul is something like the installation of up-to-date gear into a severely battered Chinese car.

Difficulty is that the Western regions profit more from trade with the EU, and the Eastern regions more from Russia.

But the issue is that if you go with one side, it offends the other. So basically Ukraine can either attempt to keep out of both and retain some economic independence (at the cost of some economic growth) or lose out on either its agricultural or industrial sector.

While I would like to think positive, the reality points to a scenario of the East or the West of Ukraine spiraling into violence. If the Maidan faction doesn't get its way, there will be violence, and if the Donbass faction don't get their way, then there will be violence.

If Ukraine wants a peaceful short-term solution, it will have to stay out of the custom's union with Russia and association agreement with the EU, and hope it can play a balancing act to keep the country together.

Though, it is a short-term solution, as if Ukraine joins the Customs Union with Russia, then Western Ukraine will likely secede from the rest of Ukraine, and if Ukraine got into a association agreement with the EU then Eastern parts of Ukraine like Donbass would secede. So either way, Ukraine is going to have a split.

Right now the US, EU, and Russia want a short-term solution, rather than a long-term one, to attempt to stop the violence.

 

[ESay]

Difficulty is that the Western regions profit more from trade with the EU, and the Eastern regions more from Russia.

But the issue is that if you go with one side, it offends the other. So basically Ukraine can either attempt to keep out of both and retain some economic independence (at the cost of some economic growth) or lose out on either its agricultural or industrial sector.

While I would like to think positive, the reality points to a scenario of the East or the West of Ukraine spiraling into violence. If the Maidan faction doesn't get its way, there will be violence, and if the Donbass faction don't get their way, then there will be violence.

If Ukraine wants a peaceful short-term solution, it will have to stay out of the custom's union with Russia and association agreement with the EU, and hope it can play a balancing act to keep the country together.

Though, it is a short-term solution, as if Ukraine joins the Customs Union with Russia, then Western Ukraine will likely secede from the rest of Ukraine, and if Ukraine got into a association agreement with the EU then Eastern parts of Ukraine like Donbass would secede. So either way, Ukraine is going to have a split.

Right now the US, EU, and Russia want a short-term solution, rather than a long-term one, to attempt to stop the violence.

Well, I think that short-term solution doesn’t exist. The time has come and Ukraine should determine which way it will go. And yes, I agree with you – Ukraine is going to have a split. I think it would be better to hold a referendum in each region on what the way Ukraine should choose and according to these results Ukraine should be divided (maybe not into completely separate states, but rather into regions which will form something like confederation). There will be great issues in the wake of such division, especially economical ones, but it seems to me this is the only way to solve the crisis.

 

[Steinlight]

Who gives a shit? Putin could roll into Ukraine for all I care. If Russia implemented a coup in Canada and tried to tale over our military vases there is no way the US wouldn't do shit about it. Putin back rebels is what ant leader who wasn't a complete masochist and Pussy would do.

We shouldn't be involved in this eastern European shithole to begin with

Fortunately you aren't running the US military or the diplomatic service.

It is true that Ukraine is a pawn in a wider geo-political conflict that is between the US (through Nato), the EU (most notably the Baltic States and Poland), and Russia.

But it would be wrong to not 'give a shit', and let the crisis spin out of control.

The anti-Russia bloc*1, view Russia's actions in support of the Donbass rebels as breaking treaties and agreements, as well as violating international law.

The pro-Russia-block*2, view the US and EU as manipulating political events in Ukraine and ousting the Ukrainian government for one that aims to remove Ukraine from Russia's sphere of influence.

Regardless of who is 'right', it would be wrong to presume that because Ukraine is a small country away from the US that it doesn't matter.

*1: Obviously not everyone within it agrees with the sanctions or the actions against Russia's interests.
*2: Includes China and the former USSR states that joined the Eurasian Customs Union, though not all those states agree with Russia's actions.

You sound like a neo-con tool. Sorry, but some insignificant country like Ukraine our puppet instead of Russia's just so some American elites can secure energy holdings in East Ukraine, isn't worth a renewed hot war with Russia. As for the EU, the EU increasingly is becoming wary of sanctions with Russia from this conflict, as it is hurting their export industry and overall economy due to the reduction of trade with Russia. Greece is moving towards Russia and Berlusconi and the right wing opposition in Italy are meeting with Putin to begin efforts to end these sanctions.

This was a total miscalculation by the West. Now we have pushed Russia towards China(who poses an actual economic and military threat to the US). Russia is beginning to trade with them in the Yuan, threatening the dollar as a global reserve currency. We have also upset relations which threaten our ability to effectively fight Islamic radicalism globally. Russia gave NATO access to enter Afghanistan, they are also aiding the Iraqi and Syrian governments in fighting ISIS. If we don't cooperate here, all of our countries are facing a greater security threat. This elevated diplomatic tension does no one any good.

What will probably happen is eventually these sanctions will end and Donbass will become like Tranistria or South Ossetia. It will be better off for all parties involved when this can be semi-normalized and economic relations can continue.