Keynsian Economics

[rubberhead]

Okay.
So you're saying Keynes relied on fiscal policy. Or he relied on monetary policy.
Have you made up your mind yet which it is?
"A monetary policy of open market operations." Do you have a clue what you are talking about? Open market operations arent a monetary policy any more than reserve requirements are a monetary policy. It's a tool of monetary policy. I realize the distinction is too subtle for you.
You two crack me up.

Maybe it's both. Isn't that possible? I see you've added false dichotomy to your repertoire of fallacies.

 

[Paulie]

Okay.
So you're saying Keynes relied on fiscal policy. Or he relied on monetary policy.
Have you made up your mind yet which it is?
"A monetary policy of open market operations." Do you have a clue what you are talking about? Open market operations arent a monetary policy any more than reserve requirements are a monetary policy. It's a tool of monetary policy. I realize the distinction is too subtle for you.
You two crack me up.

You don't read well. Is the nose getting in the way?

Keynes advocated the use of BOTH policies. How many times must I say it before you understand? Open market operations are a part of Federal Reserve policy on controlling interest rates. Keynes advocated lower rates to stimulate investment. Since the federal funds rate has been lowered to its current range, investment has jumped off tremendously. In fact, investment ALWAYS jumps off after any rate cut.

Are you going to debate, or pick each post apart and try to make something out of nothing to avoid having to debate?

At this point, you should be caught up. Just pretend I typed it really slow for you.

 

[The Rabbi]

Okay.
So you're saying Keynes relied on fiscal policy. Or he relied on monetary policy.
Have you made up your mind yet which it is?
"A monetary policy of open market operations." Do you have a clue what you are talking about? Open market operations arent a monetary policy any more than reserve requirements are a monetary policy. It's a tool of monetary policy. I realize the distinction is too subtle for you.
You two crack me up.

You don't read well. Is the nose getting in the way?

Keynes advocated the use of BOTH policies. How many times must I say it before you understand? Open market operations are a part of Federal Reserve policy on controlling interest rates. Keynes advocated lower rates to stimulate investment. Since the federal funds rate has been lowered to its current range, investment has jumped off tremendously. In fact, investment ALWAYS jumps off after any rate cut.

Are you going to debate, or pick each post apart and try to make something out of nothing to avoid having to debate?

At this point, you should be caught up. Just pretend I typed it really slow for you.

And where did Keynes advocate use of "both policies"?
Yes, we know that business investment ALWAYS jumps off after a rate cut. Like in this article:

The US economy contracted at slower pace than previously thought in the second quarter as improved consumer and business spending cushioned the impact of a record decline in inventories.

The US Commerce Department's final estimate showed gross domestic product fell at a 0.7% annual rate instead of the 1.0% decline reported last month.

Analysts polled by Reuters had forecast GDP, which measures total goods and services output within US borders, slipping at a 1.2% rate in the second quarter after dropping 6.4% in the January-March period.
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This will probably mark the last quarter of decline in output for the US economy, which slipped into recession in December 2007. The economy is believed to have rebounded in the July-September quarter.

With the second-quarter contraction, the country's real GDP has shrunk for four straight quarters for the first time since government records started in 1947.

The shallow decline in activity in the second quarter reflected more moderate drops in consumer spending and business investment than previously thought, the report showed.

Consumer spending, which normally accounts for over two-thirds of US economic activity, fell at a 0.9% rate in the second quarter - smaller than the previously estimated 1.0% decline. Spending rose at a 0.6% rate in the previous quarter.

Business investment fell at a 9.6% rate in the second quarter instead of 10.9%, reflecting slightly better demand for software than previously thought. It tumbled 39.2% in the first quarter.

RTÉ Business: Slowdown in US economy contraction
39% drop in the first quarter and 9.6% in the second. That's really jumping off there, eh Einstein?
Honestly the more you guys post, the dumber and more clueless you sound.

 

[rubberhead]

So do you have anything to say about gold prices? Brace for hyperinflation!

Hey did you guys know that fiat currency is actually unconstitutional? Pretty scary how we are completely disregarding the constitution now eh?

 

[The Rabbi]

I own some gold so I think prices are great.
Yeah. the Fed has screwed up, created a huge money supply and when velocity picks up you'll see inflation like we havent seen in 30 years.
Unconstitutional? Been reading survivalist and anti-semitic blogs again, have we?

 

[Paulie]

Okay.
So you're saying Keynes relied on fiscal policy. Or he relied on monetary policy.
Have you made up your mind yet which it is?
"A monetary policy of open market operations." Do you have a clue what you are talking about? Open market operations arent a monetary policy any more than reserve requirements are a monetary policy. It's a tool of monetary policy. I realize the distinction is too subtle for you.
You two crack me up.

You don't read well. Is the nose getting in the way?

Keynes advocated the use of BOTH policies. How many times must I say it before you understand? Open market operations are a part of Federal Reserve policy on controlling interest rates. Keynes advocated lower rates to stimulate investment. Since the federal funds rate has been lowered to its current range, investment has jumped off tremendously. In fact, investment ALWAYS jumps off after any rate cut.

Are you going to debate, or pick each post apart and try to make something out of nothing to avoid having to debate?

At this point, you should be caught up. Just pretend I typed it really slow for you.

And where did Keynes advocate use of "both policies"?
Yes, we know that business investment ALWAYS jumps off after a rate cut. Like in this article:

The US economy contracted at slower pace than previously thought in the second quarter as improved consumer and business spending cushioned the impact of a record decline in inventories.

The US Commerce Department's final estimate showed gross domestic product fell at a 0.7% annual rate instead of the 1.0% decline reported last month.

Analysts polled by Reuters had forecast GDP, which measures total goods and services output within US borders, slipping at a 1.2% rate in the second quarter after dropping 6.4% in the January-March period.
Advertisement

This will probably mark the last quarter of decline in output for the US economy, which slipped into recession in December 2007. The economy is believed to have rebounded in the July-September quarter.

With the second-quarter contraction, the country's real GDP has shrunk for four straight quarters for the first time since government records started in 1947.

The shallow decline in activity in the second quarter reflected more moderate drops in consumer spending and business investment than previously thought, the report showed.

Consumer spending, which normally accounts for over two-thirds of US economic activity, fell at a 0.9% rate in the second quarter - smaller than the previously estimated 1.0% decline. Spending rose at a 0.6% rate in the previous quarter.

Business investment fell at a 9.6% rate in the second quarter instead of 10.9%, reflecting slightly better demand for software than previously thought. It tumbled 39.2% in the first quarter.

RTÉ Business: Slowdown in US economy contraction
39% drop in the first quarter and 9.6% in the second. That's really jumping off there, eh Einstein?
Honestly the more you guys post, the dumber and more clueless you sound.

Apparently it is YOU who is clueless and dumb. I'm speaking in terms of equity vs. bond investment, regarding the affect that interest rates have on such.

You're over here talking about fucking GDP.

Asset investment typically precedes a recovery. The rate is lowered to spur borrowing and spending. Money is first spent on investments, growth enhances balance sheets, and people and businesses start to spend again.

Banks have excess liquidity with which to invest, and most likely they have contributed to the market's rise since the March bottom.

Fiscal policy so far has done next to nothing to aid in any kind of recovery. But Keynes' position on interest rates has been proven right many times over throughout history. When the Fed lowers the rate in a downturn, they are doing exactly what Keynes would do.

 

[rubberhead]

I own some gold so I think prices are great.
Yeah. the Fed has screwed up, created a huge money supply and when velocity picks up you'll see inflation like we havent seen in 30 years.
Unconstitutional? Been reading survivalist and anti-semitic blogs again, have we?

Article I. Section 10.

No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coins a Tender in Payment of Debts.

Maybe read the constitution before commenting on it Rabbi Keynes-Hitler.

 

[The Rabbi]

Do you even know what the hell you're talking about?
Dow Jones Corporate Bond Index, 10-12-2007: 101.24
Fed Discount Rate, 09-18-2007: 5.25%

Dow Jones Corporate Bond Index, 10-07-2009: 108.64
Fed Discount Rate, from 12-16-2008 to present: .50%

So the Discount Rate is down 90% and corporate bonds are up 7.4%.
Every time you post you sound more and more clueless.

Again, please tell me where Keynes suggests lowering interest rates. And I thought you didnt like Keynes?

 

[Bern80]

Back to the original question (i.e. the obligation of government to maintian employment even against market demand).

I think that the primary problem with the worlds economy is the under-valuation of labor. Pretty much every physical item of value is created by labor. In other words ALL WEALTH IS CREATED BY LABOR!

Not really no. The bulk of wealth is arguably created by investing and the return derived from a profitable one (see the wonderful new show "The Shark Tank"). They have money, they load it to people that don't have money so they can further pursue their business venture. If it is a wise venture their investment will return far more than what they put in and they don't really have to do anything except loan the money.

On the value of labor. Oh we value labor plenty. You apparently haven't looked very hard at what businesses are offering these days to get people with the skill sets they need. A family member of mine negotiated 4 weeks of paid vacation TO START at her new job because she had a scarce skill set. Many people simply aren't adapting to the type of labor we value. It's very simple, we (businesses) pay the most for what returns the most value and as a society we are shifting to brains being more valuable than braun. Companies like GM are in trouble because they are in the tough spot of having to tell people that putting part A on part B is not worth $30/hr anymore.

What if we simply paid labor a reasonable wage? Ut oh, we'd be cutting into profitability and no one would want to invest in labor intensive businesses...maybe....

Reasonable based on what? The cost of living or the actual value of the service they are providing to me or something else? As a business owner it would be rather unreasonable to pay someone $20/hr to punch buttons on a cash register, a skill set that isn't scarce at all, simply because your rent costs an arm and leg where you live.

Maybe labor intensive products should just cost considerably more than non-labor intensive products (like services).

The fact is that we base our wages on the creation and maintenance of a SOCIAL ORDER. Not on Capitalism in any real sense. Our society says: "Go to school, pay the big bucks or your SCREWED!"

A society consisting of all lawyer & accountants is an economic wasteland.

Ironically, America was once the country of hard working laborers and in the late 1940 thru the 1960s, when the conditions for labor improved, our economy boomed. In the 1970s when college grads started making extreme wages compared to labor we started the slow but steady decline of our economy.

Maybe we should rethink the entire system of wealth distribution and of the real value of the faux-educationed vs. the value of labor. (And yes American education sucks to the point that most American college grads should NOT be considered educated anyway.)

You can send 'em to school but you can't make 'em think!

All this nostalgic crap about 'we used be a nation of hard laborers' is just that, CRAP. You don't get it. that was valuable when all we did was build things. We had a lot of stuff that needed building by a lot of people because we didn't have any other technological means of doing it better. Well now we do. A robot can rivet 20 cars together in the time it used to take a person to do one. The guy that found out how to do that is clearly more valuable now than the person on the line that used to do it. yes we have moved to a service oriented economy and that is not a bad thing. it's only bad if people refuse to accept that reality and adapt to it accordingly.

 

[The Rabbi]

I own some gold so I think prices are great.
Yeah. the Fed has screwed up, created a huge money supply and when velocity picks up you'll see inflation like we havent seen in 30 years.
Unconstitutional? Been reading survivalist and anti-semitic blogs again, have we?

Article I. Section 10.

No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coins a Tender in Payment of Debts.

Maybe read the constitution before commenting on it Rabbi Keynes-Hitler.

Hey asshole. Maybe read your own posts before commenting on it.
State. You see the word "state" in what you posted? State means a state, like New York or Georgia. It doesn't mean a state like the Federal Government, which isn't a state. It doesn't mean a state of ignorance, like you're in right now. Or a state of denial, which will be your next post.

 

[Big Black Dog]

The economic situtation here at my castle is very easy to manage and it requires absolutely no thought. Wife asks for money. I hand it over. That system has worked in my household very well over the years. I learned this plan from our government in Washington. It works even better if I don't ask what the money will be used for.

 

[rubberhead]

...putting part A on part B is not worth $30/hr anymore.

Don't tell the unions that!

 

[rubberhead]

I own some gold so I think prices are great.
Yeah. the Fed has screwed up, created a huge money supply and when velocity picks up you'll see inflation like we havent seen in 30 years.
Unconstitutional? Been reading survivalist and anti-semitic blogs again, have we?

Article I. Section 10.

No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coins a Tender in Payment of Debts.

Maybe read the constitution before commenting on it Rabbi Keynes-Hitler.

Hey asshole. Maybe read your own posts before commenting on it.
State. You see the word "state" in what you posted? State means a state, like New York or Georgia. It doesn't mean a state like the Federal Government, which isn't a state. It doesn't mean a state of ignorance, like you're in right now. Or a state of denial, which will be your next post.

Did you see this part:

"make any Thing but gold and silver Coins a Tender in Payment of Debts"?

Please explain how the federal government can force the states to do something that's unconstitutional.

You lose. Just accept it.

 

[rubberhead]

The economic situtation here at my castle is very easy to manage and it requires absolutely no thought. Wife asks for money. I hand it over. That system has worked in my household very well over the years. I learned this plan from our government in Washington. It works even better if I don't ask what the money will be used for.

Imagine how much more awesome it would be if you had a printing press that could create as much money as you wanted!

 

[The Rabbi]

Article I. Section 10.

No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coins a Tender in Payment of Debts.

Maybe read the constitution before commenting on it Rabbi Keynes-Hitler.

Hey asshole. Maybe read your own posts before commenting on it.
State. You see the word "state" in what you posted? State means a state, like New York or Georgia. It doesn't mean a state like the Federal Government, which isn't a state. It doesn't mean a state of ignorance, like you're in right now. Or a state of denial, which will be your next post.

Did you see this part:

"make any Thing but gold and silver Coins a Tender in Payment of Debts"?

Please explain how the federal government can force the states to do something that's unconstitutional.

You lose. Just accept it.

Jeezus H Kreyst are you fucking stupid or are you just trying to sound dumb?? Do you have the slightest clue what you're talking about?
No, I already know the answer to that question and it's no. You are a gross ignoramus. Your head is stuffed with souse meat and you just type what the voices tell you.
Rubberhead is the most appropriate name that can be used on a family website. Rubber is all you got in there, pal. Good luck.

 

[rubberhead]

Hey asshole. Maybe read your own posts before commenting on it.
State. You see the word "state" in what you posted? State means a state, like New York or Georgia. It doesn't mean a state like the Federal Government, which isn't a state. It doesn't mean a state of ignorance, like you're in right now. Or a state of denial, which will be your next post.

Did you see this part:

"make any Thing but gold and silver Coins a Tender in Payment of Debts"?

Please explain how the federal government can force the states to do something that's unconstitutional.

You lose. Just accept it.

Jeezus H Kreyst are you fucking stupid or are you just trying to sound dumb?? Do you have the slightest clue what you're talking about?
No, I already know the answer to that question and it's no. You are a gross ignoramus. Your head is stuffed with souse meat and you just type what the voices tell you.
Rubberhead is the most appropriate name that can be used on a family website. Rubber is all you got in there, pal. Good luck.

I'll take that as a concession and apology. I accept both and I wish you luck in the impending economic ruin.

 

[The Rabbi]

Did you see this part:

"make any Thing but gold and silver Coins a Tender in Payment of Debts"?

Please explain how the federal government can force the states to do something that's unconstitutional.

You lose. Just accept it.

Jeezus H Kreyst are you fucking stupid or are you just trying to sound dumb?? Do you have the slightest clue what you're talking about?
No, I already know the answer to that question and it's no. You are a gross ignoramus. Your head is stuffed with souse meat and you just type what the voices tell you.
Rubberhead is the most appropriate name that can be used on a family website. Rubber is all you got in there, pal. Good luck.

I'll take that as a concession and apology. I accept both and I wish you luck in the impending economic ruin.

I'll take your statement as an admission of guilt for wasting everyone's time. I will remember this thread for months to come, the time when it was confirmed beyond a doubt that you are the most clueless individual on the planet.

 

[rubberhead]

Jeezus H Kreyst are you fucking stupid or are you just trying to sound dumb?? Do you have the slightest clue what you're talking about?
No, I already know the answer to that question and it's no. You are a gross ignoramus. Your head is stuffed with souse meat and you just type what the voices tell you.
Rubberhead is the most appropriate name that can be used on a family website. Rubber is all you got in there, pal. Good luck.

I'll take that as a concession and apology. I accept both and I wish you luck in the impending economic ruin.

I'll take your statement as an admission of guilt for wasting everyone's time. I will remember this thread for months to come, the time when it was confirmed beyond a doubt that you are the most clueless individual on the planet.

Yeah, it's a waste of time to consider why government sanctioned counterfeiting might be making our money worthless. I hope that you're in the minority and people wake up before it's too late. Otherwise, it won't be long before you've got your foot lodged firmly in your mouth, leaving no room for your hand because food prices will be going up too. Of course you'll probably still be saying "oh, it's because Bernanke raised the interest rates too soon!", or maybe "Bernanke didn't keep the printing presses on long enough!" God you're stupid. Hopefully, I'll be able to escape before false prosperity destroys this country.

 

[Paulie]

Do you even know what the hell you're talking about?
Dow Jones Corporate Bond Index, 10-12-2007: 101.24
Fed Discount Rate, 09-18-2007: 5.25%

Dow Jones Corporate Bond Index, 10-07-2009: 108.64
Fed Discount Rate, from 12-16-2008 to present: .50%

So the Discount Rate is down 90% and corporate bonds are up 7.4%.
Every time you post you sound more and more clueless.

Again, please tell me where Keynes suggests lowering interest rates. And I thought you didnt like Keynes?

That's how you're going to spin this? By posting a corporate bond index in comparison to the Fed discount rate?

I suppose it's convenient to leave out treasuries, and most of all, EQUITIES.

How have equities done since March? I just can't seem to find a chart ANYWHERE.

As far as Keynes and low interest rates, you apparently need to study the man. There are multiple sources explaining his position on interest rates.

The fact that I'm simply discussing the man in no way means I somehow "like" him. In your continued ignorance in this thread, you also missed the part where I mentioned his belief that lower interest rates correlate to higher investment demand was the ONLY thing I agreed with him on.

I've grown tired of this discussion. You're boring the fucking living shit out of me. Every one of your responses make no sense. You don't seem to be grasping the direction of the discussion at all. You're pointing out things that aren't even there in some kind of strange attempt to discredit my responses, but it is YOU who has ended up looking like the idiot.

Just read up on Keynes some more, my man. And continue this discussion with the other guy you're talking to about it. I've lost all desire to continue this with you.

 

[The Rabbi]

Every "fact" you have posted has been shown to be wrong. Every opinion you have offered is worthless because of that. Time and again you made assertions and I easily showed they were mistaken or contradicted by actual facts, posting links. You failed to answer even rudimentary questions, and where you did you were wrong.
Please go back to working on motorcycles and leave the educated alone.