Keynsian Economics

[The Rabbi]

I'm sorry, you're the idiot here.
Reagan failed? We had the longest post-war expansion in history during and after his presidency.
Bush jr failed? We had the second longest post war expansion in history.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No the problem is that you are a lying moron who picks and chooses. Why not quote this part instead:

1937

* The Supreme Court declares the National Labor Relations Board to be unconstitutional.

* Roosevelt seeks to enlarge and therefore liberalize the Supreme Court. This attempt not only fails, but outrages the public.

* Economists attribute economic growth so far to heavy government spending that is somewhat deficit. Roosevelt, however, fears an unbalanced budget and cuts spending for 1937. That summer, the nation plunges into another recession. Despite this, the yearly GNP rises 5.0 percent, and unemployment falls to 14.3 percent.

1938

* Congress passes the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938 and the Fair Labor Standards Act. (More)

* No major New Deal legislation is passed after this date, due to Roosevelt's weakened political power.

* The year-long recession makes itself felt: the GNP falls 4.5 percent, and unemployment rises to 19.0 percent.

So actually Roosevelt's actions lengthened the recession. Only increasing demand from Europe, due to WW2 and its preparation, and finally U.S. entry into the war actually ended the Depression.
Your claims about Hoover are completely false. Your claims about gov't taxation are woefully ignorant.

Neither the New Deal nor WW2 got us out of the Great Depression. It was only after WW2 when the government finally released much of its control over the economy that we finally got out of the Great Depression.

 

[Oddball]

Midcant is our resident ignoramus on economics in general, and history re-writer of the Great Depression in particular.

The problem with Rabbye and you is you offer nothing substantive to the discussion, you could be and maybe are robots or just moonies. When you backup your wrong ideas that flow from a lack of education, reading, or simple stupidity, you can at least comment, till then you're in a league with the wackos whose knowledge is feed to them from the corporate tool system.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

1936
The Supreme Court declares part of the Agricultural Adjustment Act to be unconstitutional.

In response, Congress passes the Soil Conservation and Domestic Allotment Act.

Top tax rate raised to 79 percent.

Economic recovery continues: GNP grows a record 14.1 percent; unemployment falls to 16.9 percent.

Germany becomes the second nation to recover fully from the Great Depression, through heavy deficit spending in preparation for war.

In order to have a substantive conversation, the other party has to know what in hell they're talking about....Which you don't.

 

[rubberhead]

Hey, I'm in Econ and we briefly went over Keynesian economics. I agree that most of Keynes' concepts we went over are believable, however, his concept about the obligation of society to provide employment to individuals in field that they are educated or have experience in. What are the prominent theories that are available about how society/government should provide jobs where there is a lack of demand? Roads can be built, parks can be monitored, street sign and cones can be manufactured but this leaves a whole myriad of other jobs that are determined directly by demand such as nursing, engineering etc...

This is a technical question isn't it? If so you want an answer from someone familiar with economics (which means I'll keep quiet). If you want an answer based on other ideas then they might be forthcoming.

As for Keynes - his ideas worked. Just as well for capitalism because his General Theory was a flat-out attack on Marxism. Commenting on his General Theory he wrote:

"To understand my state of mind.....you know that I believe myself to be writing a book on economic theory which will largely revolutionise...the way the world thinks about economic problems....there will be a great change, and, in particular, the Richardian foundations of Marxism will be knocked away."

Why the free market fundies demonise Keynes I'll never know.

Central banking is retarded as far I can tell. I'm no economist, but as far as I can tell, Keynes was just trying to create job security for economists as government bureaucrats. Furthermore, no one is incorruptible, even the crusty old technocrats that we defer our monetary policy to. They can just tell us that what they're doing is really complicated and tell us would cause a run on banks and then do whatever they want to whatever ends.

The reason I like free markets is because of the "free" part. People are free and therefore, they are responsible. Government intervention has led to corporate welfare here in the US. Basically what has happened is large companies have made unwise investments or irresponsibly high risk or even predatory loans and then the inevitable occurred. Instead of reaping what they sowed (most agree that the lenders of predatory loans bear the moral hazard), our brilliant Keynesian overlords socialized the losses (trickle-down wreckonomics). OK, so they may have saved jobs, but they did so at the expense of taxpayers and furthermore, they encourage irresponsible risk-taking. The great thing about a free market is that since the risk is real, investors only invest in projects that they believe are likely to succeed and lend only to those who are likely to pay them back.

We need to bring risk back into the system and do away with socialized banking. Sorry Keynes, but you were wrong.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm no economist,

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNO72aCnVr0]YouTube - Sam Cooke - Wonderful World[/ame]

 

[rubberhead]

Few theories are as thoroughly disproved as Keynsian economics. Only politicians still believe it because it confers power on the state. In much the same way that only academics today are Marxists.
Just this AM in the WSJ is an article by two economists on efforts to stimulate the economy and the "multiplier effect" of domestic spending. THey conclude that the multiplier in fact is a lot less than 1. Which means that stimulus spending does not stimulate the economy; in fact it serves to depress it..
Free market economics has been proven to work over and over, even in societies that have very little of it (like China in the 1970s).

Rabbi Keynes, I thought you liked central banking. You know that's one of the government controls that Keynes advocated right?

 

[rubberhead]

BTW, deficit spending is allowed by our central banking, fiat currency system. The government can spend as much as they want because more money can just be printed by the Fed (whose chairman is confirmed by Congress I believe) and inflation won't happen immediately. How is this not fraud? The Keynesian system appears to "work" because it is manipulated from the top in such a way that people will not complain. When the economy is sluggish and lending is slow, the central bank can just lower interest rates to give banks false confidence so they can take risks that the market would normally prohibit.

Someone here was saying that FDR was some kind of hero, but that's a load of horseshit. FDR instituted a lot of the major entitlement programs that are about to fail and his "second bill of rights" inspired the health care bullshit that's going on right now. "Insurance companies are evil, therefore the government should start an insurance company." That's the most flawed reasoning I've ever heard. Of course, the real reasoning is that it will lead to a far left of center political climate. FDR also tried to fix food prices (causing massive starvation) and he confiscated peoples' gold. Does this sound American? God I hope not. FDR did not extricate the US from the Great Depression, he prolonged it. If you think that the Great Depression was caused by the free market, you need to study the history of the federal reserve. The Great Depression was caused by the massive artificial boom of the 1920s and prolonged by socialist policies implemented by FDR. Don't believe he was a socialist, check out the second bill of rights and get back to me.

 

[The Rabbi]

Few theories are as thoroughly disproved as Keynsian economics. Only politicians still believe it because it confers power on the state. In much the same way that only academics today are Marxists.
Just this AM in the WSJ is an article by two economists on efforts to stimulate the economy and the "multiplier effect" of domestic spending. THey conclude that the multiplier in fact is a lot less than 1. Which means that stimulus spending does not stimulate the economy; in fact it serves to depress it..
Free market economics has been proven to work over and over, even in societies that have very little of it (like China in the 1970s).

Rabbi Keynes, I thought you liked central banking. You know that's one of the government controls that Keynes advocated right?

Ah geez. It stinks in here. I thought you were humiliated enough in the Federal Reserve thread to avoid posting again until you could get more than a 3rd grade education.
But stupidity knows no bounds. And here you are talking out of your ass again.
Advice: give your mouth a chance every once in a while.

 

[rubberhead]

Few theories are as thoroughly disproved as Keynsian economics. Only politicians still believe it because it confers power on the state. In much the same way that only academics today are Marxists.
Just this AM in the WSJ is an article by two economists on efforts to stimulate the economy and the "multiplier effect" of domestic spending. THey conclude that the multiplier in fact is a lot less than 1. Which means that stimulus spending does not stimulate the economy; in fact it serves to depress it..
Free market economics has been proven to work over and over, even in societies that have very little of it (like China in the 1970s).

Rabbi Keynes, I thought you liked central banking. You know that's one of the government controls that Keynes advocated right?

Ah geez. It stinks in here. I thought you were humiliated enough in the Federal Reserve thread to avoid posting again until you could get more than a 3rd grade education.
But stupidity knows no bounds. And here you are talking out of your ass again.
Advice: give your mouth a chance every once in a while.

At least I'm not contradicting myself from one thread to another. Are you a Keynesian or not Rabbi Keynes-Hitler? I mean, in this thread you're not, but in my Fed thread you are. Why is it that Keynesians are always contradicting themselves Rabbi Keynes-Hitler?

 

[The Rabbi]

AH mom. Stop him! He's talking out his ass again! It's stinking the place up.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Not the slightest idea. Go play world of war or something you know something about.

 

[Neubarth]

BTW, deficit spending is allowed by our central banking, fiat currency system. The government can spend as much as they want because more money can just be printed by the Fed (whose chairman is confirmed by Congress I believe) and inflation won't happen immediately. How is this not fraud? The Keynesian system appears to "work" because it is manipulated from the top in such a way that people will not complain. When the economy is sluggish and lending is slow, the central bank can just lower interest rates to give banks false confidence so they can take risks that the market would normally prohibit.

Someone here was saying that FDR was some kind of hero, but that's a load of horseshit. FDR instituted a lot of the major entitlement programs that are about to fail and his "second bill of rights" inspired the health care bullshit that's going on right now. "Insurance companies are evil, therefore the government should start an insurance company." That's the most flawed reasoning I've ever heard. Of course, the real reasoning is that it will lead to a far left of center political climate. FDR also tried to fix food prices (causing massive starvation) and he confiscated peoples' gold. Does this sound American? God I hope not. FDR did not extricate the US from the Great Depression, he prolonged it. If you think that the Great Depression was caused by the free market, you need to study the history of the federal reserve. The Great Depression was caused by the massive artificial boom of the 1920s and prolonged by socialist policies implemented by FDR. Don't believe he was a socialist, check out the second bill of rights and get back to me.

Rubber, FDR was not a Socialist. He tried many different things in a failed effort to turn the economy back on. Some were socialist in nature, but that does not make the man a confirmed Socialist. Eugene Debs was a Socialist. FDR was a liberal in trying times, and I think his liberalism was the product of trying anything to put people back to work.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

BTW, deficit spending is allowed by our central banking, fiat currency system. The government can spend as much as they want because more money can just be printed by the Fed (whose chairman is confirmed by Congress I believe) and inflation won't happen immediately. How is this not fraud? The Keynesian system appears to "work" because it is manipulated from the top in such a way that people will not complain. When the economy is sluggish and lending is slow, the central bank can just lower interest rates to give banks false confidence so they can take risks that the market would normally prohibit.

Someone here was saying that FDR was some kind of hero, but that's a load of horseshit. FDR instituted a lot of the major entitlement programs that are about to fail and his "second bill of rights" inspired the health care bullshit that's going on right now. "Insurance companies are evil, therefore the government should start an insurance company." That's the most flawed reasoning I've ever heard. Of course, the real reasoning is that it will lead to a far left of center political climate. FDR also tried to fix food prices (causing massive starvation) and he confiscated peoples' gold. Does this sound American? God I hope not. FDR did not extricate the US from the Great Depression, he prolonged it. If you think that the Great Depression was caused by the free market, you need to study the history of the federal reserve. The Great Depression was caused by the massive artificial boom of the 1920s and prolonged by socialist policies implemented by FDR. Don't believe he was a socialist, check out the second bill of rights and get back to me.

Rubber, FDR was not a Socialist. He tried many different things in a failed effort to turn the economy back on. Some were socialist in nature, but that does not make the man a confirmed Socialist. Eugene Debs was a Socialist. FDR was a liberal in trying times, and I think his liberalism was the product of trying anything to put people back to work.

FDR was not a liberal, but a progressive.

 

[rubberhead]

Rubber, FDR was not a Socialist. He tried many different things in a failed effort to turn the economy back on. Some were socialist in nature, but that does not make the man a confirmed Socialist. Eugene Debs was a Socialist. FDR was a liberal in trying times, and I think his liberalism was the product of trying anything to put people back to work.

OK, he didn't come out and say he was a socialist. It's true that he wanted to keep everyone employed. That's an honorable pursuit to be sure, for employers, not for presidents. The president is the commander-in-chief, not the guarantor of low unemployment rates. Let's have a look at the second bill of rights shall we? I mean, if we can agree that this document symbolizes what FDR's vision for America was.

1. A job with a living wage

If the government guarantees everyone a job with a "living" wage, then the government must control the means of production. Socialism.

2. Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies

I agree with this one, but I think government control tends to create unfair competition and monopolies, so I probably don't agree with the spirit of it.

3. A home

Socialist. So what if I don't work and have no money? Do I still have the "right" to a home?

4. Medical care

Medical care is a service that is provided by another free person (unless you are a doctor providing the service to yourself). If the government guarantees it, then control over the means of production is implied.

5. Education

I happen to agree that education should be guaranteed by the government. However, when the federal government controls it too much, it will be much more difficult to please everyone.

6. Recreation

I'm not sure what this even refers to. People have a right to have fun? I guess I agree that people shouldn't be unduly prevented from having fun, but I don't think the government should be providing the fun. That's just creepy.

 

[rubberhead]

I can live with the progressive label, but I understand progressivism as a transition from capitalism to socialism through the backdoor of incremental government regulation.

 

[Paulie]

AH mom. Stop him! He's talking out his ass again! It's stinking the place up.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Not the slightest idea. Go play world of war or something you know something about.

Keynes advocated the use of liberal fiscal policy in economic downturns, coupled with the use of aggressive Federal Reserve monetary policy.

Keynesianism can not exist in its current form without the Fed. The printing press is what backstops the spending.

If we took a conservative approach to economic situations, and let the free market dictate liquidity, we wouldn't NEED the Fed.

Why do you think the free market is capable of handling economic situations fiscally, but not monetarily?

 

[rubberhead]

AH mom. Stop him! He's talking out his ass again! It's stinking the place up.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Not the slightest idea. Go play world of war or something you know something about.

Keynes advocated the use of liberal fiscal policy in economic downturns, coupled with the use of aggressive Federal Reserve monetary policy.

Keynesianism can not exist in its current form without the Fed. The printing press is what backstops the spending.

If we took a conservative approach to economic situations, and let the free market dictate liquidity, we wouldn't NEED the Fed.

Why do you think the free market is capable of handling economic situations fiscally, but not monetarily?

Don't expect to get a coherent answer from Rabbi Keynes-Hitler. I think he just wants to disagree with me because we have a bit of a history. He knows that government sponsored counterfeiting is wrong, but since I said it he has to disagree.

 

[The Rabbi]

AH mom. Stop him! He's talking out his ass again! It's stinking the place up.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Not the slightest idea. Go play world of war or something you know something about.

Keynes advocated the use of liberal fiscal policy in economic downturns, coupled with the use of aggressive Federal Reserve monetary policy.

Keynesianism can not exist in its current form without the Fed. The printing press is what backstops the spending.

If we took a conservative approach to economic situations, and let the free market dictate liquidity, we wouldn't NEED the Fed.

Why do you think the free market is capable of handling economic situations fiscally, but not monetarily?

Don't expect to get a coherent answer from Rabbi Keynes-Hitler. I think he just wants to disagree with me because we have a bit of a history. He knows that government sponsored counterfeiting is wrong, but since I said it he has to disagree.

PfffPfffPffff.
Still talking out of your ass I see. Learned nothing from this thread, I guess. Or any other.

 

[The Rabbi]

AH mom. Stop him! He's talking out his ass again! It's stinking the place up.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Not the slightest idea. Go play world of war or something you know something about.

Keynes advocated the use of liberal fiscal policy in economic downturns, coupled with the use of aggressive Federal Reserve monetary policy.

Keynesianism can not exist in its current form without the Fed. The printing press is what backstops the spending.

If we took a conservative approach to economic situations, and let the free market dictate liquidity, we wouldn't NEED the Fed.

Why do you think the free market is capable of handling economic situations fiscally, but not monetarily?

That's why we never had recessions in the 19th Century, right?
You need to start dating Rubberdickhead. The two of you can get together and exchange misinformation.

 

[Paulie]

AH mom. Stop him! He's talking out his ass again! It's stinking the place up.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Not the slightest idea. Go play world of war or something you know something about.

Keynes advocated the use of liberal fiscal policy in economic downturns, coupled with the use of aggressive Federal Reserve monetary policy.

Keynesianism can not exist in its current form without the Fed. The printing press is what backstops the spending.

If we took a conservative approach to economic situations, and let the free market dictate liquidity, we wouldn't NEED the Fed.

Why do you think the free market is capable of handling economic situations fiscally, but not monetarily?

That's why we never had recessions in the 19th Century, right?
You need to start dating Rubberdickhead. The two of you can get together and exchange misinformation.

Who said anything about recessions??

I don't argue against the fact that there will be recessions in a non-Federal Reserve economy. People are imperfect. It stands to reason that we would misallocate capital from time to time and cause a downturn. That's the BEAUTY of capitalism, we're forced to learn from our mistakes if we want to perfect it.

Would you like to address the topic comprehensively, or just make ad homs and resort to strawmen?

 

[rubberhead]

AH mom. Stop him! He's talking out his ass again! It's stinking the place up.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Not the slightest idea. Go play world of war or something you know something about.

Keynes advocated the use of liberal fiscal policy in economic downturns, coupled with the use of aggressive Federal Reserve monetary policy.

Keynesianism can not exist in its current form without the Fed. The printing press is what backstops the spending.

If we took a conservative approach to economic situations, and let the free market dictate liquidity, we wouldn't NEED the Fed.

Why do you think the free market is capable of handling economic situations fiscally, but not monetarily?

That's why we never had recessions in the 19th Century, right?
You need to start dating Rubberdickhead. The two of you can get together and exchange misinformation.

Well, we didn't have recessions every two years! And they weren't as wide and deep as the ones that we have now, in general. Rabbi Keynes Hitler, if you want to justify your claims I'm all for you doing that, but until then please don't act like your argument holds any weight.