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Things like his own teams lack of offense, defense, and a bullpen, cost starting pitchers something as trivial as a win, all the time.Actually they are, and that is wrong with a lot of modern followers of the game.ehh i'll argue this all day with you. The wins and losses aren't his fault. If he is pitching to a 2.53 era then he isn't getting run support. Thats not his problem.
The ENTIRE point of starters is TO WIN GAMES.
The fact that there are a number of picthers who won on bad teams proves it IS about the pitcher, not the team around him.
If it was 'the team' Tom Seaver would have been just another player, Steve Carlton forgotten, Jake peavy a bum, Randy Johnson a stiff and so on.
Claiming that W-L doesn't matter is bullshit.
We both know the two Cy Youngs this year where wrong, they used 'other criteria' to pass over more deserving pitchers based on new age stats like the laughable 'quality start'.
We are talking about something you don't understand here, its called baseball.Things like his own teams lack of offense, defense, and a bullpen, cost starting pitchers something as trivial as a win, all the time.
A win is a team thing. It is NOT a starting pitcher thing!
You are an idiot, LOL!
No, its idiot logic to claim 'W-L' is nOT a starter's most important stat, and in fact its HIS JOB to win the game no matter what the team behind him.xeno
it's not the pitchers problem if he is giving up an average of 2 runs per game and isn't getting wins becuase his team isn't giving him the run support
that is idiotic logic.
You can't expect pitchers to throw shut outs every game. Give Santana run support of 3.5+ and he probably wins over 20 games that year.
No, its idiot logic to claim 'W-L' is nOT a starter's most important stat, and in fact its HIS JOB to win the game no matter what the team behind him.xeno
it's not the pitchers problem if he is giving up an average of 2 runs per game and isn't getting wins becuase his team isn't giving him the run support
that is idiotic logic.
You can't expect pitchers to throw shut outs every game. Give Santana run support of 3.5+ and he probably wins over 20 games that year.
There are years when good pitchers suffer from a bad team, but they OVERCOME IT career wise.
If the criteria is now NOT going to be is he a winner, why bother keeping stats at all?
If you suck you won't win no matter how good the rest of the team is, but if you are good you will win no matter what.
Do I gotta move a sports thread to the Flame Zone?
They got Santana to be an ace, his numbers are hardly overwhelming as a Met:
2008 NYM W16 L7 ERA2.53
2009 NYM W13 L9 ERA3.13
Which means if he had an ERA of 4.22 (which we both agree sucks) he would still win.Tom Seaver started 35 games and managed to win 25 of those starts. Seaver received 148 runs from his offense in those 35 starts: 4.23 runs per game.
No, its idiot logic to claim 'W-L' is nOT a starter's most important stat, and in fact its HIS JOB to win the game no matter what the team behind him.xeno
it's not the pitchers problem if he is giving up an average of 2 runs per game and isn't getting wins becuase his team isn't giving him the run support
that is idiotic logic.
You can't expect pitchers to throw shut outs every game. Give Santana run support of 3.5+ and he probably wins over 20 games that year.
There are years when good pitchers suffer from a bad team, but they OVERCOME IT career wise.
If the criteria is now NOT going to be is he a winner, why bother keeping stats at all?
If you suck you won't win no matter how good the rest of the team is, but if you are good you will win no matter what.
I don't think there's a better example of that these days than Lincecum.
Greinke this past year is certainly another one.
In 2008 the Mets have scored 12 runs in Santanas six starts. 2 runs a game. In the three games Santana has not allowed an earned run, the Mets have scored three runs. Three runs. Three games. Like last year, the Mets arent hitting when Santana is throwing up zeros. In the 20 games this year not started by Santana, the Mets have scored 107 runs (5.35 runs per game)
No, its idiot logic to claim 'W-L' is nOT a starter's most important stat, and in fact its HIS JOB to win the game no matter what the team behind him.
There are years when good pitchers suffer from a bad team, but they OVERCOME IT career wise.
If the criteria is now NOT going to be is he a winner, why bother keeping stats at all?
If you suck you won't win no matter how good the rest of the team is, but if you are good you will win no matter what.
I don't think there's a better example of that these days than Lincecum.
Greinke this past year is certainly another one.
Both were bad picks.
The kid in seattle had three more wins and was only .15 higher in ERA then Grinke, he was clearly the winner.
And the two Card pitchers were BOTH better then Tim and didn't get the nod.
A lot of the awards were questionable, like manager of the year in the AL.
Socia wins it when he had no compition in his devision and lost in the playoffs?
Giradi or Gardenhire both did better.
It was like retrads voted this year.
You do realize that knowledgeable baseball fans think people like you are clueless?No, its idiot logic to claim 'W-L' is nOT a starter's most important stat, and in fact its HIS JOB to win the game no matter what the team behind him.
There are years when good pitchers suffer from a bad team, but they OVERCOME IT career wise.
If the criteria is now NOT going to be is he a winner, why bother keeping stats at all?
If you suck you won't win no matter how good the rest of the team is, but if you are good you will win no matter what.
I don't think there's a better example of that these days than Lincecum.
Greinke this past year is certainly another one.
Both were bad picks.
The kid in seattle had three more wins and was only .15 higher in ERA then Grinke, he was clearly the winner.
And the two Card pitchers were BOTH better then Tim and didn't get the nod.
A lot of the awards were questionable, like manager of the year in the AL.
Socia wins it when he had no compition in his devision and lost in the playoffs?
Giradi or Gardenhire both did better.
It was like retrads voted this year.
Did you really just bring up the playoffs?No, its idiot logic to claim 'W-L' is nOT a starter's most important stat, and in fact its HIS JOB to win the game no matter what the team behind him.
There are years when good pitchers suffer from a bad team, but they OVERCOME IT career wise.
If the criteria is now NOT going to be is he a winner, why bother keeping stats at all?
If you suck you won't win no matter how good the rest of the team is, but if you are good you will win no matter what.
I don't think there's a better example of that these days than Lincecum.
Greinke this past year is certainly another one.
Both were bad picks.
The kid in seattle had three more wins and was only .15 higher in ERA then Grinke, he was clearly the winner.
And the two Card pitchers were BOTH better then Tim and didn't get the nod.
A lot of the awards were questionable, like manager of the year in the AL.
Socia wins it when he had no compition in his devision and lost in the playoffs?
Giradi or Gardenhire both did better.
It was like retrads voted this year.
I think those votes are in before the postseason starts though, no? So how a team fared in the postseason isn't part of consideration for these awards.
But yes, retards DID vote this year. Fielder finished 4th, behind Ramirez and Howard, and I'm clueless as to how. I guess it's because I don't know anything about baseball according to the new fish.
Yes, Joe Torre is a hall of fame manager.I think those votes are in before the postseason starts though, no? So how a team fared in the postseason isn't part of consideration for these awards.
But yes, retards DID vote this year. Fielder finished 4th, behind Ramirez and Howard, and I'm clueless as to how. I guess it's because I don't know anything about baseball according to the new fish.
In theory its not supposed to include the post season, but they vote AFTER that happens, so human nature can tell us about that.
A lot of people today don't understand the game the way we do, look at the silly fool in this thread calling everyone idoit, he's the kind of moron that believes Joe torre is a hall of fame manager and that modern players don't cheat, they are just 'better.'