Zone1 Jews: Do you blame Jesus for all the persecution our people have suffered?

[Lisa558]

After all, it does say in the Christian Bible that “his blood is on Jews and all their generations“ along with other anti-Jewish verses.

Me? I do not. I think Jesus was basically a good man, with good intentions, and taught traditional Jewish values. His “do unto others” teaching, for example, can straight from Hillel.

The problem really started decades later when the NT was written. The claims that Jesus said “nobody gets to the Father except through me” is either outright false (no Jew would elevate himself like that) or misconstrued when he meant one must follow his teachings to see Gd.

That interpretation led to the idea the Gd is angry at Jews, has cursed them, and some of the other nasty stuff I’ve read right here on this forum. And the more Jews stuck with their religion that clearly outlined who the Messiah would be - Jesus didn’t fit - the more angry the 1st c Christians got with them. By the time John was written, they were in all-out assault mode.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

 

[JoeB131]

The problem really started decades later when the NT was written. The claims that Jesus said “nobody gets to the Father except through me” is either outright false (no Jew would elevate himself like that) or misconstrued when he meant one must follow his teachings to see Gd.

Actually, the problem starts in the New Testament, particularly the Gospel of John, where he just can't stop talking about "The Jews" being the enemies of Jesus who instigate his execution.

Of course, John was written when Christians had become their own sect, and no longer a movement within Judaism.

That interpretation led to the idea the Gd is angry at Jews, has cursed them, and some of the other nasty stuff I’ve read right here on this forum. And the more Jews stuck with their religion that clearly outlined who the Messiah would be - Jesus didn’t fit - the more angry the 1st c Christians got with them. By the time John was written, they were in all-out assault mode.

While I find it amusing that people argue over who an imaginary sky pixie is angry with or who he promised a strip of land to, there is actually an argument to be made that the Jews did kill Jesus. You read the Gospels, Pontius Pilate (The Roman Governor) wanted to let him go. There is even the part where he offers the angry crowd (of Jews) a choice between Barabus and Jesus, and Jesus is the one they scream to execute.

And yes, in my Good Old Catholic Church, every Easter, they replayed this whole drama.

The other part of the problem is that Jesus offered salvation to everyone, while the Jews insisted (and still insist) that they are God's chosen People. (Which will tick off everyone who really, really needs to believe that God loves them the bestest!)

Of course, Vatican 2 came along and said the Jews weren't responsible, (just ignore what the Bible says) and we are very, very sorry for all those inquisitions and holocausts and pogroms.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

Works on the assumption Jesus ever existed. I personally don't think he did, or if he did, he was a composite of several attempted reformers of Judaism who existed in the first century CE. This is why the biographical details are all over the map.

 

[EMH]

Perhaps asking a Jew would help. I have asked Jews around the US about Jesus. Some of the answers


He was selling access to Heaven (LOL)

An ancient version of David Koresch

I am absolutely shocked anyone still believes (The New Testament)

Those that knew him best, his Disciples, all took off when he was arrested. What does that tell you?

The guy was a wine guzzling sex perv con artist



Jews get those answers from their ancestors, who were actually there observing...

 

[theHawk]

Actually, the problem starts in the New Testament, particularly the Gospel of John, where he just can't stop talking about "The Jews" being the enemies of Jesus who instigate his execution.

You mean when John testified to the truth, to what the Jews did?

It wasn’t his fault they refused to accept Jesus. They did instigate his eventual execution. But this was also known and prophesied. Jesus also asked to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing.

 

[Lisa558]

You mean when John testified to the truth, to what the Jews did?

It wasn’t his fault they refused to accept Jesus. They did instigate his eventual execution. But this was also known and prophesied. Jesus also asked to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing.

Please….I asked Jews for their opinion. (We already know people like you blame Jews.)

 

[Meriweather]

After all, it does say in the Christian Bible that “his blood is on Jews and all their generations“

A small correction. The quote in all Christian bibles is, "His blood is on us (the people in the crowd at the trial) and on our children."

Undoubtedly there were more people in the crowd who welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem (the Christian Palm Sunday) than there were at the trial.

 

[surada]

After all, it does say in the Christian Bible that “his blood is on Jews and all their generations“ along with other anti-Jewish verses.

Me? I do not. I think Jesus was basically a good man, with good intentions, and taught traditional Jewish values. His “do unto others” teaching, for example, can straight from Hillel.

The problem really started decades later when the NT was written. The claims that Jesus said “nobody gets to the Father except through me” is either outright false (no Jew would elevate himself like that) or misconstrued when he meant one must follow his teachings to see Gd.

That interpretation led to the idea the Gd is angry at Jews, has cursed them, and some of the other nasty stuff I’ve read right here on this forum. And the more Jews stuck with their religion that clearly outlined who the Messiah would be - Jesus didn’t fit - the more angry the 1st c Christians got with them. By the time John was written, they were in all-out assault mode.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

The golden rule is universal and predates Judaism.

 

[Lisa558]

A small correction. The quote in all Christian bibles is, "His blood is on us (the people in the crowd at the trial) and on our children."

Correctiom appreciated, but still…that quote has been interpreted by many as all children down the line.

Undoubtedly there were more people in the crowd who welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem (the Christian Palm Sunday) than there were at the trial.

Yes, certainly - but in any event, the vast majority of Jews living at the time (in the millions) never even heard of Jesus.

 

[Lisa558]

The golden rule is universal and predates Judaism.

Hillel was the first one to give words to it. He was summarizing the entire Torah when asked to do so while standing on foot.

 

[surada]

You mean when John testified to the truth, to what the Jews did?

It wasn’t his fault they refused to accept Jesus. They did instigate his eventual execution. But this was also known and prophesied. Jesus also asked to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing.

Where in scripture is it prophesied that Jesus will be crucified?

Jesus is not the messiah of prophecy. The Jews anticipated a warrior king like David who would vanquish their enemies.. Jesus didn't do that.

Jesus is the messiah to me, but not like the prophecy.

 

[surada]

Correctiom appreciated, but still…that quote has been interpreted by many as all children down the line.


Yes, certainly - but in any event, the vast majority of Jews living at the time (in the millions) never even heard of Jesus.

Where were the millions of Jews? The population of Palestine never exceeded 700,000.

 

[Meriweather]

Correctiom appreciated, but still…that quote has been interpreted by many as all children down the line.

Yes. Rather odd when Jesus, in his own time, had more who supported him than did not.

 

[surada]

Correctiom appreciated, but still…that quote has been interpreted by many as all children down the line.


Yes, certainly - but in any event, the vast majority of Jews living at the time (in the millions) never even heard of Jesus.

Where were the millions of Jews? The population of Palestine never exceeded 700,000.

Yes. Rather odd when Jesus, in his ow time, had more who supported him than did not.

Why do you think so?

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, certainly - but in any event, the vast majority of Jews living at the time (in the millions) never even heard of Jesus.

The same is true of many who lived in those days. It is the stories that follow historical figures that make some memorable.

 

[Lisa558]

Where were the millions of Jews? The population of Palestine never exceeded 700,000.

Estimates for the first century are between 4.5 million and 8 million Jews worldwide.

Study traces worldwide Jewish population from Exodus to modern age

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon Likes to Quote a Theory Developed by His Close Friend, Attorney Dov Weissglas, That Had the Jews Not Been Expelled by the Romans And

www.haaretz.com

 

[Meriweather]

Why do you think so?

Jesus drew crowds.

 

[Lisa558]

The same is true of many who lived in those days. It is the stories that follow historical figures that make some memorable.

Yes, but my point is that the way SOME Christians describe Jesus’ crucifixion, one would think there was a small population of Jews alove at the time, all of whom rallied around executing him.

 

[surada]

Jesus drew crowds.

Right, but that doesn't mean the majority followed Jesus.

 

[Meriweather]

Right, but that doesn't mean the majority followed Jesus.

You think the majority of those who heard him wanted him stopped or dead?

I tend to think the majority of those who took the time to hear Jesus reacted much the same as anyone does after a good homily. It lifts them for awhile, gives them something to think about, but life goes on and much of what is said is lost. They probably remembered the day they heard him as a nice day, a break from a usual day.

I take an interest on what was going on behind the scenes, especially that Passover. I have a very creative theory about what might have been. Perhaps even more than one.

 

[theHawk]

Where in scripture is it prophesied that Jesus will be crucified?

Tell us, how is the Messiah supposed to be killed?