Jew vs. Athiest : Christians Judge

[BluePhantom]

And I'm not sure what you've been reading, but there's a lot of evidence for the New Testament being True.

Well there's some, yes. It depends on what part of the NT you are referring to. One of the main things though, in my mind and in the minds of a lot of scholars, is that it's not the kind of story a Jew would make up. From a modern perspective we think it's exactly the kind of story someone would make up but it's really not. The idea of the Messiah getting killed by the Romans and suffering is totally contrary to what the ancient Jews thought the Messiah would be. It was absolutely abhorrent to envision the Messiah in such a situation. This is one of the reasons why Jews rejected Jesus then and continue to today. It's not at all the kind of thing someone would make up because it is completely embarrassing. Thus, according to the criterion of embarrassment the story has more credibility.

I disagree with your contention that the NT is "not the kind of story that a jew
would make up.." in fact it is very much a jewish kind of story. It is SO jewish--
that I truly believe that some of the books called gospels were written by jews----even if the books may have been edited a bit later on by constatine and company.
The books called gospels include accurate historical data. It could not have been
simply invented decades later

Well they were probably written by converted Jews yeah. As far as the accurate historical data...some yes and some no. Again it depends on what you are referring to. But the main point is that the Jewish vision of what the Messiah was supposed to be was not what Jesus did. This is why Jews reject Jesus...he didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies. He didn't return the line of David to the throne of Israel. He didn't drive the Romans out of the promised land, etc. He got nailed to a log. Ok...that doesn't jive with what the Messiah was supposed to be. So who the heck would make it up?

 

[irosie91]

Why do Christians get mad at us athiests for calling bullshit on the entire new testament story but Jews seem to be so chummy with christians. Why is that? As an athiest I believe a man named Jesus may have lived 2015 years ago too.

What are the differences between what Jews and athiests believe about christianity?

The entire new testament is made up. Didn't happen. Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to happen. He hasn't come yet. No?

I suspect its because atheists are irrational.......

Just focus on the similarities between Jews and athiests. Forget the differences please. A christian can walk up to an athiest and Jew and both of us are not buying any of it.

So it really shouldnt offend christians when us athiests say exactly what a Jew believes.

We just have the balls to say it. And we dont have to worry about christians calling out our stories of god because we dont have any. I know this is why Jews just keep quiet about christianity because Jews told the original lies. The reasons they use against christianity could be used against their faith too. People think I pick on christians but honestly their stories are the most believable of all the unbelievable stories.

Also, christianity can't call bs on the Jewish faith because they are a spinoff.

Christianity is more believable? So a guy got scourged and nailed to a post for saying how great it would be if people were nice to each other for a change, he dies, and three days later he is walking around again like nothing happened? THAT'S more believable? Wow...you give more credit than I do. I am a Christian but at least I admit that is about the most insane story I have ever heard.

you should try reading the book. Jesus did not get crucified for saying that people
should be nice to each other. He got crucified for sedition. Romans did not
crucify people for much else---<<<<<that's history. One of his big crimes was
the attack on the money changers in the Temple Courtyard----that was an attack on
ROMAN INTERESTS <<<more history. John the Baptist is a bit of a mystery---
he seems to be something like an essene-----which was a defiance against the roman order and plan for Israel/Judea-----it was from those desert outpost
communities that the plans for rebellion against Rome were hatched----Herod
had that guy chopped for some sort of a reason. Herod depended on the Romans
for his continued "king-ship"-----the jews did not consider him a legal king <<<history

 

[sealybobo]

Why do Christians get mad at us athiests for calling bullshit on the entire new testament story but Jews seem to be so chummy with christians. Why is that? As an athiest I believe a man named Jesus may have lived 2015 years ago too.

What are the differences between what Jews and athiests believe about christianity?

The entire new testament is made up. Didn't happen. Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to happen. He hasn't come yet. No?

I suspect its because atheists are irrational.......

Just focus on the similarities between Jews and athiests. Forget the differences please. A christian can walk up to an athiest and Jew and both of us are not buying any of it.

So it really shouldnt offend christians when us athiests say exactly what a Jew believes.

We just have the balls to say it. And we dont have to worry about christians calling out our stories of god because we dont have any. I know this is why Jews just keep quiet about christianity because Jews told the original lies. The reasons they use against christianity could be used against their faith too. People think I pick on christians but honestly their stories are the most believable of all the unbelievable stories.

Also, christianity can't call bs on the Jewish faith because they are a spinoff.

Christianity is more believable? So a guy got scourged and nailed to a post for saying how great it would be if people were nice to each other for a change, he dies, and three days later he is walking around again like nothing happened? THAT'S more believable? Wow...you give more credit than I do. I am a Christian but at least I admit that is about the most insane story I have ever heard.

Excellent post. Lol

 

[irosie91]

And I'm not sure what you've been reading, but there's a lot of evidence for the New Testament being True.

Well there's some, yes. It depends on what part of the NT you are referring to. One of the main things though, in my mind and in the minds of a lot of scholars, is that it's not the kind of story a Jew would make up. From a modern perspective we think it's exactly the kind of story someone would make up but it's really not. The idea of the Messiah getting killed by the Romans and suffering is totally contrary to what the ancient Jews thought the Messiah would be. It was absolutely abhorrent to envision the Messiah in such a situation. This is one of the reasons why Jews rejected Jesus then and continue to today. It's not at all the kind of thing someone would make up because it is completely embarrassing. Thus, according to the criterion of embarrassment the story has more credibility.

I disagree with your contention that the NT is "not the kind of story that a jew
would make up.." in fact it is very much a jewish kind of story. It is SO jewish--
that I truly believe that some of the books called gospels were written by jews----even if the books may have been edited a bit later on by constatine and company.
The books called gospels include accurate historical data. It could not have been
simply invented decades later

Well they were probably written by converted Jews yeah. As far as the accurate historical data...some yes and some no. Again it depends on what you are referring to. But the main point is that the Jewish vision of what the Messiah was supposed to be was not what Jesus did. This is why Jews reject Jesus...he didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies. He didn't return the line of David to the throne of Israel. He didn't drive the Romans out of the promised land, etc. He got nailed to a log. Ok...that doesn't jive with what the Messiah was supposed to be. So who the heck would make it up?

what does "converted jews" mean in the time of the writings of the gospels----
until paul came about -----Christianity was not yet a sect. As to the details----not an argument-- Jews are very CREATIVE when it comes to elaborating
Messiah stories. Historically, there have been lots of them

 

[BluePhantom]

Why do Christians get mad at us athiests for calling bullshit on the entire new testament story but Jews seem to be so chummy with christians. Why is that? As an athiest I believe a man named Jesus may have lived 2015 years ago too.

What are the differences between what Jews and athiests believe about christianity?

The entire new testament is made up. Didn't happen. Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to happen. He hasn't come yet. No?

I suspect its because atheists are irrational.......

Just focus on the similarities between Jews and athiests. Forget the differences please. A christian can walk up to an athiest and Jew and both of us are not buying any of it.

So it really shouldnt offend christians when us athiests say exactly what a Jew believes.

We just have the balls to say it. And we dont have to worry about christians calling out our stories of god because we dont have any. I know this is why Jews just keep quiet about christianity because Jews told the original lies. The reasons they use against christianity could be used against their faith too. People think I pick on christians but honestly their stories are the most believable of all the unbelievable stories.

Also, christianity can't call bs on the Jewish faith because they are a spinoff.

Christianity is more believable? So a guy got scourged and nailed to a post for saying how great it would be if people were nice to each other for a change, he dies, and three days later he is walking around again like nothing happened? THAT'S more believable? Wow...you give more credit than I do. I am a Christian but at least I admit that is about the most insane story I have ever heard.

you should try reading the book. Jesus did not get crucified for saying that people
should be nice to each other. He got crucified for sedition. Romans did not
crucify people for much else---<<<<<that's history. One of his big crimes was
the attack on the money changers in the Temple Courtyard----that was an attack on
ROMAN INTERESTS <<<more history. John the Baptist is a bit of a mystery---
he seems to be something like an essene-----which was a defiance against the roman order and plan for Israel/Judea-----it was from those desert outpost
communities that the plans for rebellion against Rome were hatched----Herod
had that guy chopped for some sort of a reason. Herod depended on the Romans
for his continued "king-ship"-----the jews did not consider him a legal king <<<history

You are not great at grasping sarcasm are you?

 

[sealybobo]

Why do Christians get mad at us athiests for calling bullshit on the entire new testament story but Jews seem to be so chummy with christians. Why is that? As an athiest I believe a man named Jesus may have lived 2015 years ago too.

What are the differences between what Jews and athiests believe about christianity?

The entire new testament is made up. Didn't happen. Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to happen. He hasn't come yet. No?

I don't think Christians have any problem with atheists at all. I know I don't. However, when atheists attack Christian beliefs, Christians will defend them. That's all. From my experience, I have never run into a Jew who attacked Christian faith. I am sure there are those that do, but I have never run into one. In my experience, Jews are perfectly happy to have discussions about the differences in belief and are quite tolerant of the differing points of view. Indeed, in my study, I have two friends who are Rabbis with whom I will contact when I have a question about Jewish belief, the Hebrew language, or such things and they are quite happy to discuss it knowing full well I am a Christian and will apply their input toward my Christian faith.

Most atheists are the same actually. They are too busy with their own lives to worry about what other people believe and generally don't care. But some can be quite militant and antagonistic and that is going to generate a response.

I love it how basically a lot of christians have said for some reason Jews get a free pass on doubting god sent his son.

And have you seen next week on A.D. the bible continues Jesus' disciples went around performing miracles proving god exists to the yet unconverted. I'll convert too if a priest can cure my moms Alzheimer's. Why are we unlucky in the dice roll of time.

God apparently got involved all throughout history but disappeared 2000 years ago? Lol

 

[BluePhantom]

And I'm not sure what you've been reading, but there's a lot of evidence for the New Testament being True.

Well there's some, yes. It depends on what part of the NT you are referring to. One of the main things though, in my mind and in the minds of a lot of scholars, is that it's not the kind of story a Jew would make up. From a modern perspective we think it's exactly the kind of story someone would make up but it's really not. The idea of the Messiah getting killed by the Romans and suffering is totally contrary to what the ancient Jews thought the Messiah would be. It was absolutely abhorrent to envision the Messiah in such a situation. This is one of the reasons why Jews rejected Jesus then and continue to today. It's not at all the kind of thing someone would make up because it is completely embarrassing. Thus, according to the criterion of embarrassment the story has more credibility.

I disagree with your contention that the NT is "not the kind of story that a jew
would make up.." in fact it is very much a jewish kind of story. It is SO jewish--
that I truly believe that some of the books called gospels were written by jews----even if the books may have been edited a bit later on by constatine and company.
The books called gospels include accurate historical data. It could not have been
simply invented decades later

Well they were probably written by converted Jews yeah. As far as the accurate historical data...some yes and some no. Again it depends on what you are referring to. But the main point is that the Jewish vision of what the Messiah was supposed to be was not what Jesus did. This is why Jews reject Jesus...he didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies. He didn't return the line of David to the throne of Israel. He didn't drive the Romans out of the promised land, etc. He got nailed to a log. Ok...that doesn't jive with what the Messiah was supposed to be. So who the heck would make it up?

what does "converted jews" mean in the time of the writings of the gospels----
until paul came about -----Christianity was not yet a sect. As to the details----not an argument-- Jews are very CREATIVE when it comes to elaborating
Messiah stories. Historically, there have been lots of them

Well I guess it depends on what you mean. As far as when the term "Christian" was first used there is debate about that. Acts has something to say about that I believe (too lazy to look up the exact verse right now). But by concept and definition, Christianity began the moment someone believed the the resurrection of Jesus regardless of what they called it. According to the gospels that would be with Mary Magdalene or her and some other women depending on which gospel you read.

Furthermore, "Christianity" or whatever they called it certainly was a sect prior to Paul. Paul was clear in Galatians, I believe, that it was several years before he was given authority to preach to the Gentiles by the other Apostles and it was conditional on him gathering a collection for the saints (or believers) in Jerusalem. If there were no believers in Christ there would have been no one for Paul to take a collection for. Of course Christianity existed before Paul...although he was certainly chiefly responsible for its spread and perhaps even its survival.

 

[BluePhantom]

Why do Christians get mad at us athiests for calling bullshit on the entire new testament story but Jews seem to be so chummy with christians. Why is that? As an athiest I believe a man named Jesus may have lived 2015 years ago too.

What are the differences between what Jews and athiests believe about christianity?

The entire new testament is made up. Didn't happen. Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to happen. He hasn't come yet. No?

I don't think Christians have any problem with atheists at all. I know I don't. However, when atheists attack Christian beliefs, Christians will defend them. That's all. From my experience, I have never run into a Jew who attacked Christian faith. I am sure there are those that do, but I have never run into one. In my experience, Jews are perfectly happy to have discussions about the differences in belief and are quite tolerant of the differing points of view. Indeed, in my study, I have two friends who are Rabbis with whom I will contact when I have a question about Jewish belief, the Hebrew language, or such things and they are quite happy to discuss it knowing full well I am a Christian and will apply their input toward my Christian faith.

Most atheists are the same actually. They are too busy with their own lives to worry about what other people believe and generally don't care. But some can be quite militant and antagonistic and that is going to generate a response.

I love it how basically a lot of christians have said for some reason Jews get a free pass on doubting god sent his son.

And have you seen next week on A.D. the bible continues Jesus' disciples went around performing miracles proving god exists to the yet unconverted. I'll convert too if a priest can cure my moms Alzheimer's. Why are we unlucky in the dice roll of time.

God apparently got involved all throughout history but disappeared 2000 years ago? Lol

Well AD is an interesting show. There is a lot of supposition in it. It doesn't follow scripture very well. I view it as an interesting exercise in attempting to recreate what was happening behind the scenes, but it has a bit of danger in that people who don't know scripture watch it and assume that's what the Bible actually says. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It reminds me a bit of the Last Temptation of Christ, which I found to be very inspirational and powerful, but it is making a suggestion about what temptation Jesus may have been offered on the cross. The Bible doesn't actually say. It's just an interesting mental exercise to consider.

I understand completely about curing your mother's Alzheimer's. I think the same way sometimes about my wife's RA and the pain she feels every day. I don't know the answer to why God allows suffering. It's a question that has been a real pain in the ass for people of faith since the beginning of time. I wish I had the answer for you. All I can offer you is my best wishes for your mother and my prayers (if you would be willing to accept the spirit of good faith in which they are offered).

 

[sealybobo]

Why do Christians get mad at us athiests for calling bullshit on the entire new testament story but Jews seem to be so chummy with christians. Why is that? As an athiest I believe a man named Jesus may have lived 2015 years ago too.

What are the differences between what Jews and athiests believe about christianity?

The entire new testament is made up. Didn't happen. Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to happen. He hasn't come yet. No?

I don't think Christians have any problem with atheists at all. I know I don't. However, when atheists attack Christian beliefs, Christians will defend them. That's all. From my experience, I have never run into a Jew who attacked Christian faith. I am sure there are those that do, but I have never run into one. In my experience, Jews are perfectly happy to have discussions about the differences in belief and are quite tolerant of the differing points of view. Indeed, in my study, I have two friends who are Rabbis with whom I will contact when I have a question about Jewish belief, the Hebrew language, or such things and they are quite happy to discuss it knowing full well I am a Christian and will apply their input toward my Christian faith.

Most atheists are the same actually. They are too busy with their own lives to worry about what other people believe and generally don't care. But some can be quite militant and antagonistic and that is going to generate a response.

I love it how basically a lot of christians have said for some reason Jews get a free pass on doubting god sent his son.

And have you seen next week on A.D. the bible continues Jesus' disciples went around performing miracles proving god exists to the yet unconverted. I'll convert too if a priest can cure my moms Alzheimer's. Why are we unlucky in the dice roll of time.

God apparently got involved all throughout history but disappeared 2000 years ago? Lol

Well AD is an interesting show. There is a lot of supposition in it. It doesn't follow scripture very well. I view it as an interesting exercise in attempting to recreate what was happening behind the scenes, but it has a bit of danger in that people who don't know scripture watch it and assume that's what the Bible actually says. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It reminds me a bit of the Last Temptation of Christ, which I found to be very inspirational and powerful, but it is making a suggestion about what temptation Jesus may have been offered on the cross. The Bible doesn't actually say. It's just an interesting mental exercise to consider.

I understand completely about curing your mother's Alzheimer's. I think the same way sometimes about my wife's RA and the pain she feels every day. I don't know the answer to why God allows suffering. It's a question that has been a real pain in the ass for people of faith since the beginning of time. I wish I had the answer for you. All I can offer you is my best wishes for your mother and my prayers (if you would be willing to accept the spirit of good faith in which they are offered).

I appreciate you. But rather than crying to an imaginary god who doesnt exist so can't do anything what I do as a son is spend a lot of time with her and help my dad. And I support science and things like legalizing pot which will make her relax and stem cell research that might one day find a cure.

My moms not worrying about after she dies and neither do I. She's trying to have quality of life here and now.

One more thing. My religious brother said something I'll never forget. For 40 plus years our lives were perfect and we never asked god why. So when things get hard dont ask why.

 

[BluePhantom]

I appreciate you. But rather than crying to an imaginary god who doesnt exist so can't do anything what I do as a son is spend a lot of time with her and help my dad. And I support science and things like legalizing pot which will make her relax and stem cell research that might one day find a cure.

My moms not worrying about after she dies and neither do I. She's trying to have quality of life here and now.

One more thing. My religious brother said something I'll never forget. For 40 plus years our lives were perfect and we never asked god why. So when things get hard dont ask why.

Medicinal marijuana and stem cell research are important and opportunities for advances in medical treatment. I think they should be advanced. My wife refuses to consider medical marijuana for religious and moral reasons although I swear to the Lord almighty, if there is one person who could benefit from it, she is it. The pain she experiences on a daily basis is unbearable for her and terrible for me to watch. From my perspective, God provided a plant that will ease suffering...take what God has provided and ease your pain. Your brother's comment is insightful and theoretically valid but, for me, such sentiments offer little comfort when we see a loved one suffer. We just wonder why it is happening to someone we care about.

 

[sealybobo]

I appreciate you. But rather than crying to an imaginary god who doesnt exist so can't do anything what I do as a son is spend a lot of time with her and help my dad. And I support science and things like legalizing pot which will make her relax and stem cell research that might one day find a cure.

My moms not worrying about after she dies and neither do I. She's trying to have quality of life here and now.

One more thing. My religious brother said something I'll never forget. For 40 plus years our lives were perfect and we never asked god why. So when things get hard dont ask why.

Medicinal marijuana and stem cell research are important and opportunities for advances in medical treatment. I think they should be advanced. My wife refuses to consider medical marijuana for religious and moral reasons although I swear to the Lord almighty, if there is one person who could benefit from it, she is it. The pain she experiences on a daily basis is unbearable for her and terrible for me to watch. From my perspective, God provided a plant that will ease suffering...take what God has provided and ease your pain. Your brother's comment is insightful and theoretically valid but, for me, such sentiments offer little comfort when we see a loved one suffer. We just wonder why it is happening to someone we care about.

I just figure its never nice to die and its gonna happen to everyone. Can't get any more fair than that right?

You just proved one of the many examples I use when I say believing in god is not good for people. Your wife has been told smoking weed is evil? Do you see? And she's needlessly suffering? Life is too short and precious. I dont know what to tell you you've spoke to many other christians use weed rather than perscription drugs BC the pills are dangerous.

I haven't got my mom high yet. I should but she's not suffering yet. Other than constant fidgiting. My dads in charge and it'd upset him but maybe I'll give her a pot candy to start see what happens.

Do that for your wife its not smoking. Its a cherry ball with a little THC.

 

[irosie91]

And I'm not sure what you've been reading, but there's a lot of evidence for the New Testament being True.

Well there's some, yes. It depends on what part of the NT you are referring to. One of the main things though, in my mind and in the minds of a lot of scholars, is that it's not the kind of story a Jew would make up. From a modern perspective we think it's exactly the kind of story someone would make up but it's really not. The idea of the Messiah getting killed by the Romans and suffering is totally contrary to what the ancient Jews thought the Messiah would be. It was absolutely abhorrent to envision the Messiah in such a situation. This is one of the reasons why Jews rejected Jesus then and continue to today. It's not at all the kind of thing someone would make up because it is completely embarrassing. Thus, according to the criterion of embarrassment the story has more credibility.

I disagree with your contention that the NT is "not the kind of story that a jew
would make up.." in fact it is very much a jewish kind of story. It is SO jewish--
that I truly believe that some of the books called gospels were written by jews----even if the books may have been edited a bit later on by constatine and company.
The books called gospels include accurate historical data. It could not have been
simply invented decades later

Well they were probably written by converted Jews yeah. As far as the accurate historical data...some yes and some no. Again it depends on what you are referring to. But the main point is that the Jewish vision of what the Messiah was supposed to be was not what Jesus did. This is why Jews reject Jesus...he didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies. He didn't return the line of David to the throne of Israel. He didn't drive the Romans out of the promised land, etc. He got nailed to a log. Ok...that doesn't jive with what the Messiah was supposed to be. So who the heck would make it up?

what does "converted jews" mean in the time of the writings of the gospels----
until paul came about -----Christianity was not yet a sect. As to the details----not an argument-- Jews are very CREATIVE when it comes to elaborating
Messiah stories. Historically, there have been lots of them

Well I guess it depends on what you mean. As far as when the term "Christian" was first used there is debate about that. Acts has something to say about that I believe (too lazy to look up the exact verse right now). But by concept and definition, Christianity began the moment someone believed the the resurrection of Jesus regardless of what they called it. According to the gospels that would be with Mary Magdalene or her and some other women depending on which gospel you read.

Furthermore, "Christianity" or whatever they called it certainly was a sect prior to Paul. Paul was clear in Galatians, I believe, that it was several years before he was given authority to preach to the Gentiles by the other Apostles and it was conditional on him gathering a collection for the saints (or believers) in Jerusalem. If there were no believers in Christ there would have been no one for Paul to take a collection for. Of course Christianity existed before Paul...although he was certainly chiefly responsible for its spread and perhaps even its survival.

anyone who believed a crucified jew woke up from being dead is someone
you call a "Christian"??? ------ok ---that's you. That some jews believed
that some crucified jew woke up from being dead does not make those
people "Christians" in my mind. It is amazing what jews are willing to
believe in times of stress. It is amazing what some jews have been willing
to believe-----on and off-------since.

 

[BluePhantom]

You just proved one of the many examples I use when I say believing in god is not good for people. Your wife has been told smoking weed is evil? Do you see? And she's needlessly suffering? .

Hell yeah. I understand completely. I hope one of the many things people might take away from my posts is that God can contribute to a person's life and fulfill certain internal needs that they have, but religion can really fuck a person up. I see it happening with my lovely wife and I see it in so many aspects of society as a whole. This is why I post on these boards telling Christians to stop being so judgmental and allow people to walk their own path, and why I tell atheists to stop hammering people of faith simply because they choose to believe.

Simply because you, for example, choose not to believe doesn't mean I should not be a blessing to you to the degree I am able. That is your path to walk and whatever I can contribute to your life should not be dependent upon your choices and beliefs matching my own. I don't recall Jesus forcing people to listen to Him if they were not interested. He basically said 'oh ok, you don't want to hear this? Ok. Well good luck to you then and I hope it all works out for you'. I don't recall Jesus giving love only to those who agreed with Him. I seem to recall Him praying for those who were killing Him. So if I am to follow the example of Jesus, the love, comfort, companionship, friendship...whatever that I have to offer you should not be conditional upon your acceptance of my personal point of view. I think that is reasonable and I would go so far to suggest that offering such things to another where there are conditions attached are really worthless because it comes from a place of bribing and not a place of true offering.

But conversely, simply because I believe, why should you reject a positive wish or a positive offering that may benefit your life or your understanding of life simply because it comes from a spiritual place? Surely you have the capacity to take a spiritual message that I (or anyone else) give and apply it to your life in a secular manner that still benefits you.

What it all comes down to is tolerance on all sides. There is nothing wrong in someone believing if it impacts their life in a positive way. What business do we have telling someone that they must go through life on our terms? Neither is their anything wrong with not believing if that is the path that one chooses to walk. I tend to believe that God knows our hearts and he knows if there is good in our hearts or bad in our hearts. I tend to give God enough credit to be able to figure out what we are as people and whether we contribute or detract from society. And if God doesn't exist...I guess it doesn't matter huh?

 

[sealybobo]

I appreciate you. But rather than crying to an imaginary god who doesnt exist so can't do anything what I do as a son is spend a lot of time with her and help my dad. And I support science and things like legalizing pot which will make her relax and stem cell research that might one day find a cure.

My moms not worrying about after she dies and neither do I. She's trying to have quality of life here and now.

One more thing. My religious brother said something I'll never forget. For 40 plus years our lives were perfect and we never asked god why. So when things get hard dont ask why.

Medicinal marijuana and stem cell research are important and opportunities for advances in medical treatment. I think they should be advanced. My wife refuses to consider medical marijuana for religious and moral reasons although I swear to the Lord almighty, if there is one person who could benefit from it, she is it. The pain she experiences on a daily basis is unbearable for her and terrible for me to watch. From my perspective, God provided a plant that will ease suffering...take what God has provided and ease your pain. Your brother's comment is insightful and theoretically valid but, for me, such sentiments offer little comfort when we see a loved one suffer. We just wonder why it is happening to someone we care about.

After talking to you I called my dad and he's open to medical marijuana. Wow. Thanks for giving me the courage.

 

[JFish123]

Well there's some, yes. It depends on what part of the NT you are referring to. One of the main things though, in my mind and in the minds of a lot of scholars, is that it's not the kind of story a Jew would make up. From a modern perspective we think it's exactly the kind of story someone would make up but it's really not. The idea of the Messiah getting killed by the Romans and suffering is totally contrary to what the ancient Jews thought the Messiah would be. It was absolutely abhorrent to envision the Messiah in such a situation. This is one of the reasons why Jews rejected Jesus then and continue to today. It's not at all the kind of thing someone would make up because it is completely embarrassing. Thus, according to the criterion of embarrassment the story has more credibility.

I disagree with your contention that the NT is "not the kind of story that a jew
would make up.." in fact it is very much a jewish kind of story. It is SO jewish--
that I truly believe that some of the books called gospels were written by jews----even if the books may have been edited a bit later on by constatine and company.
The books called gospels include accurate historical data. It could not have been
simply invented decades later

Well they were probably written by converted Jews yeah. As far as the accurate historical data...some yes and some no. Again it depends on what you are referring to. But the main point is that the Jewish vision of what the Messiah was supposed to be was not what Jesus did. This is why Jews reject Jesus...he didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies. He didn't return the line of David to the throne of Israel. He didn't drive the Romans out of the promised land, etc. He got nailed to a log. Ok...that doesn't jive with what the Messiah was supposed to be. So who the heck would make it up?

what does "converted jews" mean in the time of the writings of the gospels----
until paul came about -----Christianity was not yet a sect. As to the details----not an argument-- Jews are very CREATIVE when it comes to elaborating
Messiah stories. Historically, there have been lots of them

Well I guess it depends on what you mean. As far as when the term "Christian" was first used there is debate about that. Acts has something to say about that I believe (too lazy to look up the exact verse right now). But by concept and definition, Christianity began the moment someone believed the the resurrection of Jesus regardless of what they called it. According to the gospels that would be with Mary Magdalene or her and some other women depending on which gospel you read.

Furthermore, "Christianity" or whatever they called it certainly was a sect prior to Paul. Paul was clear in Galatians, I believe, that it was several years before he was given authority to preach to the Gentiles by the other Apostles and it was conditional on him gathering a collection for the saints (or believers) in Jerusalem. If there were no believers in Christ there would have been no one for Paul to take a collection for. Of course Christianity existed before Paul...although he was certainly chiefly responsible for its spread and perhaps even its survival.

anyone who believed a crucified jew woke up from being dead is someone
you call a "Christian"??? ------ok ---that's you. That some jews believed
that some crucified jew woke up from being dead does not make those
people "Christians" in my mind. It is amazing what jews are willing to
believe in times of stress. It is amazing what some jews have been willing
to believe-----on and off-------since.

Ok then, what would you classify as a "Christian" and why? Obviously by your rant I doubt your religious at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BluePhantom]

I appreciate you. But rather than crying to an imaginary god who doesnt exist so can't do anything what I do as a son is spend a lot of time with her and help my dad. And I support science and things like legalizing pot which will make her relax and stem cell research that might one day find a cure.

My moms not worrying about after she dies and neither do I. She's trying to have quality of life here and now.

One more thing. My religious brother said something I'll never forget. For 40 plus years our lives were perfect and we never asked god why. So when things get hard dont ask why.

Medicinal marijuana and stem cell research are important and opportunities for advances in medical treatment. I think they should be advanced. My wife refuses to consider medical marijuana for religious and moral reasons although I swear to the Lord almighty, if there is one person who could benefit from it, she is it. The pain she experiences on a daily basis is unbearable for her and terrible for me to watch. From my perspective, God provided a plant that will ease suffering...take what God has provided and ease your pain. Your brother's comment is insightful and theoretically valid but, for me, such sentiments offer little comfort when we see a loved one suffer. We just wonder why it is happening to someone we care about.

After talking to you I called my dad and he's open to medical marijuana. Wow. Thanks for giving me the courage.

Dude that is fucking awesome!!!! I will say "praise Jesus" and you can say whatever you wish. At the end of the day that's fantastic news!!!!

 

[sealybobo]

You just proved one of the many examples I use when I say believing in god is not good for people. Your wife has been told smoking weed is evil? Do you see? And she's needlessly suffering? .

Hell yeah. I understand completely. I hope one of the many things people might take away from my posts is that God can contribute to a person's life and fulfill certain internal needs that they have, but religion can really fuck a person up. I see it happening with my lovely wife and I see it in so many aspects of society as a whole. This is why I post on these boards telling Christians to stop being so judgmental and allow people to walk their own path, and why I tell atheists to stop hammering people of faith simply because they choose to believe.

Simply because you, for example, choose not to believe doesn't mean I should not be a blessing to you to the degree I am able. That is your path to walk and whatever I can contribute to your life should not be dependent upon your choices and beliefs matching my own. I don't recall Jesus forcing people to listen to Him if they were not interested. He basically said 'oh ok, you don't want to hear this? Ok. Well good luck to you then and I hope it all works out for you'. I don't recall Jesus giving love only to those who agreed with Him. I seem to recall Him praying for those who were killing Him. So if I am to follow the example of Jesus, the love, comfort, companionship, friendship...whatever that I have to offer you should not be conditional upon your acceptance of my personal point of view. I think that is reasonable and I would go so far to suggest that offering such things to another where there are conditions attached are really worthless.

But conversely, simply because I believe, why should you reject a positive wish or a positive offering that may benefit your life or your understanding of life simply because it comes from a spiritual place? Surely you have the capacity to take a spiritual message that I (or anyone else) give and apply it to your life in a secular manner that still benefits you.

What it all comes down to is tolerance on all sides. There is nothing wrong in someone believing if it impacts their life in a positive way. What business do we have telling someone that they must go through life on our terms? Neither is their anything wrong with not believing if that is the path that one chooses to walk. I tend to believe that God knows our hearts and he knows if there is good in our hearts or bad in our hearts. I tend to give God enough credit to be able to figure out what we are as people and whether we contribute or detract from society. And if God doesn't exist...I guess it doesn't matter huh?

I feel the same way. Just because I dont believe in gods doesnt mean I dont want to leave the planet in better shape than I left it. Unfortunately we aren't doing such a good job of it but that's another conversation.

I think us athiests hammer theists because we believe its not good for man. Like I want to leave the planet a better place theists dont care because heaven awaits. Theists want to believe they will live forever. Athiests would like to believe the human species lives forever. How much do we donate to NASA and how much to church?

 

[BluePhantom]

anyone who believed a crucified jew woke up from being dead is someone
you call a "Christian"??? ------ok ---that's you.

Actually it's called the Nicene Creed which is when Christianity was defined. Part of the definition is the belief in the resurrection of Jesus. Thus, the first person who believed in the resurrection could be argued to be the first Christian as it was defined by the First Council of Nicea

 

[BluePhantom]

I think us athiests hammer theists because we believe its not good for man. Like I want to leave the planet a better place theists dont care because heaven awaits. Theists want to believe they will live forever. Athiests would like to believe the human species lives forever. How much do we donate to NASA and how much to church?

But that's not your place to decide for another is it? 'What is good for man' starts with 'what is good for the individual'. Through collective determinations on an individual basis we decide as a community what is best for man. Don't you think? For example, I do not endorse abortion but I am pro-choice. Why? Because I know that abortion will happen whether it is legal or not. Laws don't stop people from doing things. They simply punish those that do. Abortion will end when we as a society choose something else. Right now that is not what we are choosing, and that is the authority God gave us. I believe the time will come when abortion will end not because it is illegal but because we as a society have chosen something different. THAT has meaning. Coercion means nothing.

I disagree that theists don't care about the environment because heaven awaits. In fact, I have never heard of that before. I think theists are just like anyone else in regards to the environment. Some care, some don't, some care but are too lazy to do anything about it, and some just want to drink beer. I think NASA should be funded because God gave us the capacity to understand and the nature to ask questions and through that we can improve the world. Eventually, however, our race will die because the Earth will be enveloped by the sun so unless we find a way to get off this rock we are ultimately doomed.

 

[sealybobo]

You just proved one of the many examples I use when I say believing in god is not good for people. Your wife has been told smoking weed is evil? Do you see? And she's needlessly suffering? .

Hell yeah. I understand completely. I hope one of the many things people might take away from my posts is that God can contribute to a person's life and fulfill certain internal needs that they have, but religion can really fuck a person up. I see it happening with my lovely wife and I see it in so many aspects of society as a whole. This is why I post on these boards telling Christians to stop being so judgmental and allow people to walk their own path, and why I tell atheists to stop hammering people of faith simply because they choose to believe.

Simply because you, for example, choose not to believe doesn't mean I should not be a blessing to you to the degree I am able. That is your path to walk and whatever I can contribute to your life should not be dependent upon your choices and beliefs matching my own. I don't recall Jesus forcing people to listen to Him if they were not interested. He basically said 'oh ok, you don't want to hear this? Ok. Well good luck to you then and I hope it all works out for you'. I don't recall Jesus giving love only to those who agreed with Him. I seem to recall Him praying for those who were killing Him. So if I am to follow the example of Jesus, the love, comfort, companionship, friendship...whatever that I have to offer you should not be conditional upon your acceptance of my personal point of view. I think that is reasonable and I would go so far to suggest that offering such things to another where there are conditions attached are really worthless because it comes from a place of bribing and not a place of true offering.

But conversely, simply because I believe, why should you reject a positive wish or a positive offering that may benefit your life or your understanding of life simply because it comes from a spiritual place? Surely you have the capacity to take a spiritual message that I (or anyone else) give and apply it to your life in a secular manner that still benefits you.

What it all comes down to is tolerance on all sides. There is nothing wrong in someone believing if it impacts their life in a positive way. What business do we have telling someone that they must go through life on our terms? Neither is their anything wrong with not believing if that is the path that one chooses to walk. I tend to believe that God knows our hearts and he knows if there is good in our hearts or bad in our hearts. I tend to give God enough credit to be able to figure out what we are as people and whether we contribute or detract from society. And if God doesn't exist...I guess it doesn't matter huh?

If something created the universe what makes you think that thing is a god? And how did you conclude it cares about us? Is there a heav

I think us athiests hammer theists because we believe its not good for man. Like I want to leave the planet a better place theists dont care because heaven awaits. Theists want to believe they will live forever. Athiests would like to believe the human species lives forever. How much do we donate to NASA and how much to church?

But that's not your place to decide for another is it? 'What is good for man' starts with 'what is good for the individual'. Through collective determinations on an individual basis we decide as a community what is best for man. Don't you think? For example, I do not endorse abortion but I am pro-choice. Why? Because I know that abortion will happen whether it is legal or not. Laws don't stop people from doing things. They simply punish those that do. Abortion will end when we as a society choose something else. Right now that is not what we are choosing, and that is the authority God gave us. I believe the time will come when abortion will end not because it is illegal but because we as a society have chosen something different. THAT has meaning. Coercion means nothing.

I disagree that theists don't care about the environment because heaven awaits. In fact, I have never heard of that before. I think theists are just like anyone else in regards to the environment. Some care, some don't, some care but are too lazy to do anything about it, and some just want to drink beer. I think NASA should be funded because God gave us the capacity to understand and the nature to ask questions and through that we can improve the world. Eventually, however, our race will die because the Earth will be enveloped by the sun so unless we find a way to get off this rock we are ultimately doomed.

If only more theists were like you.