Japanese company produces water powered car

[editec]

I keep wondering what the long term outcome of having a half billion hydrogen cars spewing 02 and water vapor into the atmosphere would be.

Not good, I think.

 

[dilloduck]

I keep wondering what the long term outcome of having a half billion hydrogen cars spewing 02 and water vapor into the atmosphere would be.

Not good, I think.

Shame on you for thinking long term !!!!!

 

[editec]

Shame on you for thinking long term !!!!!

It has caused me (and many just like me) no end of problems in this society, to be sure.

In the land of the blind the one eyed men are marginalized, mocked, and if they insist on telling people what they see, eventually they are called mad.

Called kings, contrary to the adage, they're typically not.

We live in a short-term planners world because the economic system we have rewards short term benefits even if their outcome in the long term is *catastropic. Blame it allon the bean counters and the stock market which has about a 180 day view of things.

* See internal combustion engines as one example

 

[JimH52]

The concept will either go away or it will grow, hopefully based on its merit and not Exxon/Mobile's checkbook.

 

[btopping]

Great concept - I wonder if it is true

 

[dread]

Well shiiiit! Kirk should be happier than tits on a boar hog now that the North Pole is melting there will be enough water to go around for everyones car!

YEA GLOBAL WARMING!

 

[JimH52]

Well shiiiit! Kirk should be happier than tits on a boar hog now that the North Pole is melting there will be enough water to go around for everyones car!

YEA GLOBAL WARMING!

LOL....OMG...

 

[editec]

Well shiiiit! Kirk should be happier than tits on a boar hog now that the North Pole is melting there will be enough water to go around for everyones car!

YEA GLOBAL WARMING!

Just remember the old editecian adage, sport...

Surrounding every silver lining, there's a storm cloud.​

 

[JimH52]

I think I was reading more about this car today. Also GM and Honda are putting a Hydrogen prototype out. I guess the sand fleas will be pusing their crude prices up more as they see the writing on the war. Now would be the time to invest in Hydrogen IMHO. I have a some spare cash coming in January that I might, depending on the environment, put into a good Hydrogen investment. But who?

If I can find the link I will post it.

 

[editec]

I think hydrogen cars are NOT the future, folks.

But then too, I didn't think Motown had legs, either.

 

[JimH52]

I think hydrogen cars are NOT the future, folks.

But then too, I didn't think Motown had legs, either.

I am still waiting for the revitalization of folk music. Blowing in the Wind was the first song I learned to play on the guitar.

On an unrelated topic, John Fogerty is coming to do a concert in my town. I bought tickets and I am stoked! I was a huge CCR fan in the 70s. Please don't tell me he doesn't do CCR tunes at his concert...

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Now I'm no scientiest, but considering that water vapor is a green-house gas, wouldn't water-powered cars be just as bad? Water-vapor absorbs more heat than CO2. And honestly, people are already fighting over water to drink. I personally, don't care to start fighting over water to fuel my car.

Water vaper condenses into liquid and falls to the ground. CO2 doesn't. Not that I believe in man made global warming. And besides which, imagine the water vapor from H2 cars compared to the utter vastness of our oceans.

Also, water can be moved in pipelines just like oil if it's really scarce.

If there is something to this, can you imagine? These guy better keep their technology close to the vest otherwise Exxon or Shell will show up at their door. They have gotten used to their blotted profits and certainly don't want to see anything that might stop the flow of money.

If the oil companies were all-powerful, we wouldn't have corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) regulations, and the 80's wouldn't have been so painful for oil companies.

Thought just occured to me.

In order to run on H2O it has to be distilled water.

Also there's the question of what the effect of huge amounts of O2 would be on the atmosphere, too.

Because 02 would be the by product of breaking down those molecules would it not?

200,000,000 vehicles spewing flammable o2 into the atmosphere?

Sounds like that's a problem waiting to manifest to me.

The solution is STILL solar, folks.

Well you can't very well use solar for transportation. Not without a storage medium (batteries, compressed air, hydrogen), anyhow. There is a finite amount of energy in a square meter of sunlight. I want to say...700 watts or so, for southern states on a sunny summer day. For reference, 1 HP = 746 watts. And remember that solar panels are only 15% efficient or so. So you'd be lucky to get even 1 horsepower if your car was covered in solar panels.

I keep wondering what the long term outcome of having a half billion hydrogen cars spewing 02 and water vapor into the atmosphere would be.

Not good, I think.

There is no O2 being spewed. Only water vapor.

The H2 manufacturing plant takes in water and a buttload of electricity, and yields H2 which is stored. It also yields O2, but that's released into the air.

Then later on, your car combines the H2 with the O2 in the air, making water vapor. Just like burning it. The result is, you get back some of the energy that the H2 plant put into it. About 40%, on par with a good diesel.

In other words, H2 is just a storage medium, like a battery. Except that batteries are considerably more efficient with regards to energy. That's why most EV enthusiasts now see lithium batteries as the new hotness, and tend to dismiss H2 plans as windowdressing gimmicks by carmakers, as well as a moneymaking scheme by oil companies (currently, H2 is almost entirely made from natural gas and not water).

 

[editec]

Water vaper condenses into liquid and falls to the ground. CO2 doesn't. Not that I believe in man made global warming. And besides which, imagine the water vapor from H2 cars compared to the utter vastness of our oceans.

Now image the water vaporour effect of a half million cars spewing water vapor in the canyons of NYC. Every day will be a foggy day in the big Apple. Sounds silly now, but I honestly think that much water vapor would be an environmentla problem for us. Not a glabal environmental problem but a problem in place.

Well you can't very well use solar for transportation. Not without a storage medium (batteries, compressed air, hydrogen), anyhow.

True enough

There is a finite amount of energy in a square meter of sunlight. I want to say...700 watts or so, for southern states on a sunny summer day. For reference, 1 HP = 746 watts. And remember that solar panels are only 15% efficient or so. So you'd be lucky to get even 1 horsepower if your car was covered in solar panels.

Is that 700 watts of power per sq meter, per hour? Per day or what?

There is no O2 being spewed. Only water vapor.

My chemistry is a little rusty, but I think that the products coming from Electrolysis of water are one hydrogen atom and two oxygen atoms, yes?

So the question remains on the table:

What do we do with the spare 02 after we break down the water molecule?

The H2 manufacturing plant takes in water and a buttload of electricity, and yields H2 which is stored. It also yields O2, but that's released into the air.

And it doesn't much matter where the process takes place.

Whether its done in each car, or in some grand central plant, the fact is that there's going to be one hell of a lot of O2 released if we create enough hygrogen to run our autos.

What does mankind DO with that much O2?

I suspect if we simple released it all into the atmosphere, we'd be trading a CO2 problem for an O2 problem in the long run.

I still do NOT think that any solution other than something more directly solar is going to solve mankinds LONG TERM needs for energy.

That's the only source of non-polluting energy available to us, I suspect.

And while I'm willing to listen to any and every plan anyone has to help us get through the transation from carbon based energy sources, I think solar. geothermal and (perhaps) tidal energy has got to be the solutions we need to invest our resources finding.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Now image the water vaporour effect of a half million cars spewing water vapor in the canyons of NYC. Every day will be a foggy day in the big Apple. Sounds silly now, but I honestly think that much water vapor would be an environmentla problem for us. Not a glabal environmental problem but a problem in place.

Oh sure, it might be a localized problem. Actually, I'm not even sure about that. If you run the vapor through a condenser (ie, a radiator) to drop the temperature, then you would have a trickle of water running out the back. Which I suppose would lead to perpetually wet roads, hmm.

Is that 700 watts of power per sq meter, per hour? Per day or what?

It's continuous. If you had a hypothetical 100% eficient solar panel, your motor could produce 700 watts of power as long as it's summer and roughly noon and you're in Arizona or whatever.

I'm not 100% sure about that exact number, but I think it's close. You can look up tables and maps that show the amount of solar flux for various regions, and then apply multipliers for different times of day, different seasons, etc.

My chemistry is a little rusty, but I think that the products coming from Electrolysis of water are one hydrogen atom and two oxygen atoms, yes?

So the question remains on the table:

What do we do with the spare 02 after we break down the water molecule?

It's simply released into the air. Every H2 generating scheme I've ever heard of assumes this. Whether it's a proposal to have a huge plant do it, or have H2 produced on the spot at gas stations.

Think of it like this:

H2 manufacturing: splits water, puts +100 oxygen into the air

Your car using up H2: recombines H2 + O2 into water, removing -100 oxygen from the air

And while I'm willing to listen to any and every plan anyone has to help us get through the transation from carbon based energy sources, I think solar. geothermal and (perhaps) tidal energy has got to be the solutions we need to invest our resources finding.

Those are fine and all, but they cannot displace gasoline by themselves. They are not portable like gasoline. You need storage, which is where hydrogen comes in.

Really though I think hydrogen is already a has-been. The fuel cells and storage tanks and so forth are just outrageously expensive. If you want to store electric power dirt cheap, then compressed air is better. If you want to store electric power with the least amount of energy wasted, then the newest lithium batteries are the way to go.

The bottom line is, hydrogen has 4~5 big huge technological breakthroughs it needs to meet in order to become feasible. Whereas lithium batteries only have one obstacle left--price. They can charge up in as little as 15 minutes and run a car up to 220 miles. They just need to get cheaper.

 

[Gungnir]

Two Hydrogens + Oxygen = Water

Even if the water is condensed (seemingly another drain on the energy economy of the vehicle) it will still evaporate. I live in Florida, I KNOW about humidity.

 

[Chris]

Water vaper condenses into liquid and falls to the ground. CO2 doesn't. Not that I believe in man made global warming. And besides which, imagine the water vapor from H2 cars compared to the utter vastness of our oceans.

Also, water can be moved in pipelines just like oil if it's really scarce.



If the oil companies were all-powerful, we wouldn't have corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) regulations, and the 80's wouldn't have been so painful for oil companies.



Well you can't very well use solar for transportation. Not without a storage medium (batteries, compressed air, hydrogen), anyhow. There is a finite amount of energy in a square meter of sunlight. I want to say...700 watts or so, for southern states on a sunny summer day. For reference, 1 HP = 746 watts. And remember that solar panels are only 15% efficient or so. So you'd be lucky to get even 1 horsepower if your car was covered in solar panels.



There is no O2 being spewed. Only water vapor.

The H2 manufacturing plant takes in water and a buttload of electricity, and yields H2 which is stored. It also yields O2, but that's released into the air.

Then later on, your car combines the H2 with the O2 in the air, making water vapor. Just like burning it. The result is, you get back some of the energy that the H2 plant put into it. About 40%, on par with a good diesel.

In other words, H2 is just a storage medium, like a battery. Except that batteries are considerably more efficient with regards to energy. That's why most EV enthusiasts now see lithium batteries as the new hotness, and tend to dismiss H2 plans as windowdressing gimmicks by carmakers, as well as a moneymaking scheme by oil companies (currently, H2 is almost entirely made from natural gas and not water).

Israel is moving ahead with solar power while we stand around and say it can't be done. They are building one solar power plant that will supply 5% of their country's energy needs.

Next Big Future: Solar power breakthroughs SUNRGI 7 cents per kwh 2009 and Israel Solar Power 100 times lower cost

 

[Gungnir]

How much sunshine do they get per year? Nearly their entire country is in one small lower latitude.

How much electricity do they use compared to our country?

 

[Gungnir]

Kirk, the article which you linked to says:

SUNRGI says it can multiply that by four because it has a system to instantly cool its germanium-based semiconductor from 3,300 degrees to 20 degrees above ambient temperature.

A further advantage of PS I is said to be its transparency to infrared radiation, which eliminates the need for expensive cooling equipment.

It seems to rely on a super-photosynthesis-protein and a superdrained germanium semiconductor.

I say superdrained because the article negates cooling devices so the energy of the temperature in the semiconductor must be quickly and efficiently dumped. This baffles me. Also, photosynthesis should require quite a few proteins working together, essentially needing a cell -- not just one protein molecule.

 

[editec]

BVM is kind enough to connect the dots for me when he remind me that:

Think of it like this:

H2 manufacturing: splits water, puts +100 oxygen into the air

Your car using up H2: recombines H2 + O2 into water, removing -100 oxygen from the air

But of course! How could I have not thought that through?

Oh yeah, that's right...I'm a social scientist.

I have no expectation that there's ever a right answer to any problem. tIn our world, there's only solving one problem to replace it with another one.

Chemists worry about things blowing up.

Social scientists worry about things blowing back.

Thanks, BVM.

Okay ya'll can build your hydrogen cars, now.

Carry on.

 

[Gungnir]

Blow back eh? Listen to Ron Paul much?