i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[The Sage of Main Street]

You’ve been duped by your government, but too dumb to know it.

Demonic Creatures Use Both a Pentagram and a Pentagon

 

[georgephillip]

Yes she said that. She said NOTHING about allowing Iraq to invade Kuwait. And your last sentence is nonsense. The US goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian deaths. The photo you posted is of the "road of death" where US airpower destroyed the retreating Iraqi army. That was a perfectly legal and legitimate act of war. The Iraqis were the ones killing and raping civilians in Kuwait, as well as stealing everything not solidly set in concrete, not the US forces.

The US has killed millions of civilians on the opposite side of the planet from DC.
Name another country in history to match that level of indifference to civilian deaths.
The Highway of Death murdered retreating forces which posed no threat to American killers.
How's the rape rate in the US armed forces?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Where is Ukraine?

"My Crane Be Liftin' Trump's Fat Ass Out of Mallow Largo and Droppin' Him in Dah Hood"

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

This was an illegal war waged for some alternative reason

London Bridge Is Falling Down, Falling Down, Falling Down

Iraq was attacked for flooding the market with oil (in order to finance its war against Iran), thereby lowering the profits of British Petroleum petrocrats.

 

[Ringo]

Stalin was only in the war because he had no choice and spent the war blackmailing FDR and Churchill for ever larger amounts of support. The USSR fought its own war and almost never cooperated with the Allies, and then reluctantly

Is that what they taught you at indoctrination school? You know. who is the real ally? Not the one who sells weapons, but the one who helps allies with weapons in his hands. The Allies promised to open a Second Front in 1942, 1943 and only in 1944 they landed in Normandy. When Stalin promised Roosevelt that the USSR would begin hostilities against Japan three months after the end of the war in Europe, he fulfilled this promise verbatim. May 9, 1945 -August 9, 1945. This is an ally that anyone would like to have.

 

[georgephillip]

If you had bother to actually read the article you linked to, it clearly says that was a military convoy and the people killed were Saddam's SOLDIERS.

George H.W. Bush’s complicity in the 1991 “Highway of Death” massacre - Liberation News

"'statesman' and 'American hero'?

"What a lie!

"When George H.W. Bush was president he ordered the massacre of Iraqi soldiers after the ceasefire in 1991, and after he had promised them safe passage out of Kuwait.

"This article, which went viral after the war, exposed Bush as a mass murderer and war criminal, directly involved in the 'Highway of Death'

"He is a 'hero' only to Big Oil and the Wall Street financial empire.

"This account was assembled by the author and presented by her at a tribunal examining U.S. war crimes. It is still cited around the world on anniversaries of this war.

"I want to give testimony on what are called the 'highways of death.'

"These are the two Kuwaiti roadways, littered with remains of 2,000 mangled Iraqi military vehicles, and the charred and dismembered bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers, who were withdrawing from Kuwait on February 26th and 27th 1991 in compliance with UN resolutions."

 

[georgephillip]

How many Ukrainians and Russians must die to appease western oligarchs and the MIC?

Has there ever been another war in recent times so easily avoided?

America’s Culture of Death​

It has now become clear that the Pentagon has been maneuvering into giving Russia another “Vietnam,” just as it lured the Soviet Union into invading Afghanistan in 1979. For the past 25 years, Russian officials have been telling the United States that their “red line” was Ukraine. If NATO were to absorb Ukraine, that would entitle the Pentagon to install its nuclear missiles on Russia’s border, pointed at Moscow, St. Petersburg, and other Russian cities. Russia’s position was made clear: It would never permit that to happen. To prevent it from happening, Russia’s officials repeatedly stated, Russia would invade Ukraine to effect regime change.

Knowing this, U.S. officials continued on course, knowing full-well that Russia wasn’t bluffing. In fact, it is now clear that U.S. officials have been training and arming the Ukrainian military for years in preparation for what they knew was coming — the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

The result has been a massive number of deaths, not only among the Ukrainian military and civilians but also among the Russian military. Not surprisingly, there has been a tremendous amount of exaltation among U.S. officials and the mainstream press over the thousands of Russian soldiers who have been killed in the conflict. They call the deaths of those soldiers “degrading Russia,” which has obviously been the aim from the beginning.
America’s Culture of Death - LewRockwell

Your link:

"Consider all the deaths that have come from U.S. sanctions and embargoes.

"The sanctions against Iraq brought about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. Yes, children!

"Recall the outrage arising out of the deaths of those 19 children in Uvalde.

"There was never any such outrage for the killing of those hundreds of thousands of children in Iraq.

"There is a simple reason for that: The killings of the Iraqi children are part of our national culture of death."

The US launched its national culture of death with genocide from sea the shining sea; it's hardly surprising many Americans today worship mass murder when it's done for the "national $ecurity."

 

[gipper]

Your link:

"Consider all the deaths that have come from U.S. sanctions and embargoes.

"The sanctions against Iraq brought about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. Yes, children!

"Recall the outrage arising out of the deaths of those 19 children in Uvalde.

"There was never any such outrage for the killing of those hundreds of thousands of children in Iraq.

"There is a simple reason for that: The killings of the Iraqi children are part of our national culture of death."

The US launched its national culture of death with genocide from sea the shining sea; it's hardly surprising many Americans today worship mass murder when it's done for the "national $ecurity."

The actions of the USG are appalling, yet few Americans think so. In fact, pointing out these truths gets one labeled a traitor. It’s shameful.

 

[gipper]

Your link:

"Consider all the deaths that have come from U.S. sanctions and embargoes.

"The sanctions against Iraq brought about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. Yes, children!

"Recall the outrage arising out of the deaths of those 19 children in Uvalde.

"There was never any such outrage for the killing of those hundreds of thousands of children in Iraq.

"There is a simple reason for that: The killings of the Iraqi children are part of our national culture of death."

The US launched its national culture of death with genocide from sea the shining sea; it's hardly surprising many Americans today worship mass murder when it's done for the "national $ecurity."

Also at that link…

President Kennedy had a remarkable ability to put himself into the shoes of an adversary to determine what it was that was motivating him to act. Kennedy figured out that what the Soviets and Cubans were trying to do was prevent the United States from again invading Cuba in an effort to oust the Castro regime from power. He figured that if he guaranteed that the United States would not invade Cuba again, the Soviets would be willing to remove their weapons. His offer was accepted by the Soviets, except for one thing: The Soviets wanted the United States to remove its missiles in Turkey that were pointed at Russia. Understanding the hypocrisy of the United States’ position, Kennedy agreed to remove the missiles. The crisis was resolved.

That’s what could have been done in Ukraine to avoid all those deaths of Ukrainians and Russians alike. All that needed to be done to avoid the conflict was an agreement in which NATO would not absorb Ukraine. But unfortunately, Joe Biden is no John Kennedy. The result has been thousands of unnecessary deaths, including both Ukrainians and Russians.

Unfortunately we don’t have a president like JFK, who sought world peace. We have a demented old warmonger who just might instigate nuclear war.

 

[georgephillip]

That’s what could have been done in Ukraine to avoid all those deaths of Ukrainians and Russians alike. All that needed to be done to avoid the conflict was an agreement in which NATO would not absorb Ukraine. But unfortunately, Joe Biden is no John Kennedy. The result has been thousands of unnecessary deaths, including both Ukrainians and Russians

Imho, Ukraine is seen as the key to opening Russia to another round of looting like we saw in the 1990s. Western investors and their political puppets couldn't care less about dead Ukrainians, Russians, Europeans, or Americans for that matter as long as they get their blood-spattered ROI.

What would happen if Russia Balkanized?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Is that what they taught you at indoctrination school? You know. who is the real ally? Not the one who sells weapons, but the one who helps allies with weapons in his hands. The Allies promised to open a Second Front in 1942, 1943 and only in 1944 they landed in Normandy. When Stalin promised Roosevelt that the USSR would begin hostilities against Japan three months after the end of the war in Europe, he fulfilled this promise verbatim. May 9, 1945 -August 9, 1945. This is an ally that anyone would like to have.

Stalin's Winning Draw-Play Strategy

The Russians, under the invincible Marshal Zhukov, defeated the Japanese at the Battle of Khalkhin Gol, in Mongolia, way back in July, 1939. Its most important historical importance is that it reveals the lie historians tell us about Stalin's imaginary holding back those troops from entering the war against Germany in 1941 because of a fear of being attacked by Japan. Historians, even Alexander Solzhenitsyn, are also completely misleading when they push the nonsense that Stalin had trusted Hitler, which is totally against Stalin's paranoiac character. He provoked the blitzkrieg and faked a retreat so that the Nazi army would be too far from supply lines by the time they reached the major Russian cities.

 

[para bellum]

Ukraine in no way can be an industrial competitor to Germany. Raw materials and cheap labour aren't the only things the industrial might is based upon.

Sorry ESay, I meant to get back to you about this earlier.

I've spent more than 4 decades in manufacturing. I have a pretty good sense of it. We were chomping at the bit in the early '90's to get into eastern Europe, but the corruption was just too much to deal with. And we weren't inexperienced in that regard- we were already doing business in Mexico and South America, which requires certain payoffs to get the necessary permissions. It was the same thing, but on steroids in Eastern Europe in the early '90's.

Ukraine was one of the main centers of gravity for manufacturing for the USSR. It's not just raw materials and lower labor costs- it's abundant and reliable low-cost energy, a great rail system and waterways to get products to markets. It's the generations of tradesmen like machinists and engineers that pass their experience to the next generation- Ukraine had a mature aerospace sector, heavy manufacfuring like ship propulsion systems and gas turbines, tanks, trucks, armored vehicles, etc.

I am not looking at Ukraine today, I'm imagining a rebuilt Ukraine 20 years in the future, with modern technology, against a Germany that will probably have a 20 hour work week by then, expensive and unreliable energy, higher transportation costs, and probably a less friendly business environment overall.

Ukraine would have to continue certain reforms of their own system- be more market driven, fewer "oligarchs" running the enterprises, more investment from western companies, and so on. The opportunity is there- I can't predict it will happen, but it's not unrealistic.

jmho.

 

[gipper]

Sorry ESay, I meant to get back to you about this earlier.

I've spent more than 4 decades in manufacturing. I have a pretty good sense of it. We were chomping at the bit in the early '90's to get into eastern Europe, but the corruption was just too much to deal with. And we weren't inexperienced in that regard- we were already doing business in Mexico and South America, which requires certain payoffs to get the necessary permissions. It was the same thing, but on steroids in Eastern Europe in the early '90's.

Ukraine was one of the main centers of gravity for manufacturing for the USSR. It's not just raw materials and lower labor costs- it's abundant and reliable low-cost energy, a great rail system and waterways to get products to markets. It's the generations of tradesmen like machinists and engineers that pass their experience to the next generation- Ukraine had a mature aerospace sector, heavy manufacfuring like ship propulsion systems and gas turbines, tanks, trucks, armored vehicles, etc.

I am not looking at Ukraine today, I'm imagining a rebuilt Ukraine 20 years in the future, with modern technology, against a Germany that will probably have a 20 hour work week by then, expensive and unreliable energy, higher transportation costs, and probably a less friendly business environment overall.

Ukraine would have to continue certain reforms of their own system- be more market driven, fewer "oligarchs" running the enterprises, more investment from western companies, and so on. The opportunity is there- I can't predict it will happen, but it's not unrealistic.

jmho.

If this war continues, there won’t be much left of Ukraine and it will likely take many decades to recover.

 

[georgephillip]

If this war continues, there won’t be much left of Ukraine and it will likely take many decades to recover.

It appears the corruption in Ukraine is eternal.
I wonder why the western media isn't interested?

The Bottomless Corruption of the Ukrainian State | Gates of Vienna

"Information leaked from Ukraine and confirmed by independent observers once again gives an insight into the ubiquitous corruption that prevails in the country: According to the Group of States against Corruption (GRECO), which is part of the Council of Europe, aid funds of more than €55 million were diverted.

"That’s not all: According to the report, 22 shipping containers, 389 railway wagons and 220 trucks with humanitarian aid from the Zaporozhye region were stolen in the region in the last six months.

"This corresponds to almost 100% of the total deliveries for this region.

"The stolen goods were later offered for sale in Ukrainian retail chains.

"In total, from March to August 2022, the EU sent Ukraine humanitarian goods worth more than €360 million. According to GRECO, goods worth €342 million were stolen.

"These figures correspond to a whole catalog of similar reports: It was already known in May that a large part of the relief supplies delivered to Ukraine had been embezzled and privately sold on."

 

[gipper]

It appears the corruption in Ukraine is eternal.
I wonder why the western media isn't interested?

The Bottomless Corruption of the Ukrainian State | Gates of Vienna

"Information leaked from Ukraine and confirmed by independent observers once again gives an insight into the ubiquitous corruption that prevails in the country: According to the Group of States against Corruption (GRECO), which is part of the Council of Europe, aid funds of more than €55 million were diverted.

"That’s not all: According to the report, 22 shipping containers, 389 railway wagons and 220 trucks with humanitarian aid from the Zaporozhye region were stolen in the region in the last six months.

"This corresponds to almost 100% of the total deliveries for this region.

"The stolen goods were later offered for sale in Ukrainian retail chains.

"In total, from March to August 2022, the EU sent Ukraine humanitarian goods worth more than €360 million. According to GRECO, goods worth €342 million were stolen.

"These figures correspond to a whole catalog of similar reports: It was already known in May that a large part of the relief supplies delivered to Ukraine had been embezzled and privately sold on."

Because negative reports on Ukraine aren’t allowed in the western press but they are on Russia, even if false and misleading.

 

[para bellum]

So where is the report? We're supposed to just take some blogger's word?

The most recent one on their website wrt Ukraine was published in April and has nothing to do with western aid, it's all about politicians and judges, etc.

https://rm.coe.int/fourth-evaluation-round-corruption-prevention-in-respect-of-members-of/1680a64e60

 

[georgephillip]

So where is the report? We're supposed to just take some blogger's word?

The most recent one on their website wrt Ukraine was published in April and has nothing to do with western aid, it's all about politicians and judges, etc.

https://rm.coe.int/fourth-evaluation-round-corruption-prevention-in-respect-of-members-of/1680a64e60

That's a good question.
Personally, I tend to be suspicious of most claims coming from the second most corrupt state in Europe at this time when it's locked in conflict with the most corrupt state in Europe:

CBS partially retracts documentary that outraged Ukraine by claiming that US weapon shipments were going missing

 

[para bellum]

That's a good question.

Their disclaimer:

"Articles in the news feed are posted “as is”. Gates of Vienna cannot vouch for the authenticity or accuracy of the contents of any individual item posted here. I check each entry to make sure it is relatively interesting, not patently offensive, and at least superficially plausible. The link to the original is included with each item’s title. Further research and verification are left to the reader."

So I did.

The original was in German from a website called Ansage.org which seems to promote the pro-Russian propaganda. It is monetized by MGID, who call themselves the "world's largest audience development network", and has a lot of covid conspiracy stuff and pieces about refugees "freeloading" in Germany.

There is no report from GRECO linked on the Ansage piece.

 

[ESay]

Sorry ESay, I meant to get back to you about this earlier.

I've spent more than 4 decades in manufacturing. I have a pretty good sense of it. We were chomping at the bit in the early '90's to get into eastern Europe, but the corruption was just too much to deal with. And we weren't inexperienced in that regard- we were already doing business in Mexico and South America, which requires certain payoffs to get the necessary permissions. It was the same thing, but on steroids in Eastern Europe in the early '90's.

Ukraine was one of the main centers of gravity for manufacturing for the USSR. It's not just raw materials and lower labor costs- it's abundant and reliable low-cost energy, a great rail system and waterways to get products to markets. It's the generations of tradesmen like machinists and engineers that pass their experience to the next generation- Ukraine had a mature aerospace sector, heavy manufacfuring like ship propulsion systems and gas turbines, tanks, trucks, armored vehicles, etc.

I am not looking at Ukraine today, I'm imagining a rebuilt Ukraine 20 years in the future, with modern technology, against a Germany that will probably have a 20 hour work week by then, expensive and unreliable energy, higher transportation costs, and probably a less friendly business environment overall.

Ukraine would have to continue certain reforms of their own system- be more market driven, fewer "oligarchs" running the enterprises, more investment from western companies, and so on. The opportunity is there- I can't predict it will happen, but it's not unrealistic.

jmho.

You were right when saying Ukraine 'was' and 'had'. Too much has been lost over the last 30 years. One of my friends was a student of Kiev aviation college back in the early 00s. And they had a 'technology practice' (I don't know how it sounds properly in English) in Antonov aviation plant.

And he was quite sceptical about its future and his perspectives of work in that field. Simply put, he described the plant as a bunch of 'pensioners' who wanted to get additional revenue or full retirement.

You think that Germany won't be a financial and economic powerhouse in say 20 years term? Don't know. With their traditions and mentality. The workforce deficit they have they already compensate by cheap labour from the East and elsewhere.

Basically, I think the EU is the best thing that happened to the East Europe in the last decades. Without it some countries there might have had governments in comparison with which Orban would seem as a beacon of democracy and liberal values.

 

[Ringo]

Zelensky said he was shocked by the fact that Israel had not supplied Ukraine with any weapons.

Israel responded. that the fighters for the independence of Ukraine had already received in 1941-45 only gold teeth of Jews for tens of thousands of Reichsmarks.