It's not the government's debt, stupid, it's your own

[expat_panama]

...the $53T in debt is not a completely accurate figure. That said, would you still agree that the total amount of private debt (household and business) far exceeds that of Washington's?

The reason the $53T total US debt is greater than the $9.7 federal debt is because that total is the sum of the federal + household + business + foreign debt. Total household debt at $13.3 appears bigger than the $9.6T federal debt only because it includes $4.1T that households owe themselves, and the feddebt number does not include $4.6T that the federals owe the federals. Here's the latest from the Treasury Dept.'s "Debt to the Penny' site:

Most importantly, private debt is disappearing while federal debt is exploding. The original numbers in post # 24 show that since 2008 private debt's fallen $800B while federal debt's skyrocketed $3,200B.

 

[saveliberty]

[Note for the dense: The title references Jim Carville's campaign advice to Clinton: "It's the economy, stupid." Don't take it personally.]

Below is a chart that lists government and private debt from 1870 to the present. (Private debt, of course, includes both businesses and consumers.)

The most immediate consequence of such a huge private debt load is this:

Essentially this chart means that every neighbor of yours is sitting on a pile of debt (most likely living in it -- in an upside down house) and can't spend. In turn, banks are sitting on portfolios of bad debt -- potential defaults -- and hoarding cash. In turn again, businesses have no interest in hiring, investing or spending in a world of uncertain buyers. There's your economic recession ... stagnation ... potential depression ... right there.

Source

As your chart shows, government is in a debt growth phase, while private folks are cutting back. Private folks are rightly asking government to cut back as well. Private debt can be paid down by greater productivity, additional labor (second job) or a reallocation of revenues to pay down debt. Government produces no goods and can only siphon off private folks through taxes.

 

[expat_panama]

...your chart shows, government is in a debt growth phase, while private folks are...

That's what we were just talking about, Wonky's chart is a lie.

The Federal debt that's shown is just the $10T the fed's owe to poeple and not the additional $4T one fed agency owes another. Private debt is made to look sooo much bigger because it adds all money people borrowed from banks, plus savings accounts banks owe people, plus money people loaned to the businesses they own, plus --you get the point. Then the pundit had the chutzpah to say it's all money people owe banks.

Liar.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

...your chart shows, government is in a debt growth phase, while private folks are...

That's what we were just talking about, Wonky's chart is a lie.

The Federal debt that's shown is just the $10T the fed's owe to poeple and not the additional $4T one fed agency owes another. Private debt is made to look sooo much bigger because it adds all money people borrowed from banks, plus savings accounts banks owe people, plus money people loaned to the businesses they own, plus --you get the point. Then the pundit had the chutzpah to say it's all money people owe banks.

Liar.

It's obvious that you're the one who's lying. through your continual refusal to answer my questions. See? We can go on like this all day. Don't get stuck in troll mode. It's not worth it.

 

[saveliberty]

"...is it reasonable to criticize President Obama's handling of the economy in light of the fact that Americans have been doing so well?

Now that is one super question, and since "Obama's-handling-the-entire-economy" is a change of topic from "households-owe-banks-$53T" I took the liberty of starting this thread here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...ealth-soaring-9t-thank-obama.html#post3829539

Thanks for picking it up. Now I'll be happy to return to the original topic.

I concede that there's good reason to suspect that the $53T in debt is not a completely accurate figure. That said, would you still agree that the total amount of private debt (household and business) far exceeds that of Washington's?

Why wouldn't private debt exceed government debt? There are 350 million of us, plus hundreds of thousands of corporations. Unless your an idiot who thinks government should be in charge of everything it makes no sense. Oh, never mind, I see your problem.

 

[Neubarth]

Remember the Federal Government can ask the FED to dismiss all debt owed to it. If we do that, after the FED had purchased all foreign held debt, 13 Trillion of imaginary debt would disappear overnight. THAT is a good thing.

 

[expat_panama]

...Wonky's chart is a lie. ...

It's obvious that you're the one who's lying...

This shows how attacking the idea is one thing and attacking the person is another.

We get a lot of good done by putting our ideas out and having them kicked around because it shows how robust they are. The problem of switching from attacking ideas to attacking people happens when people forget that we are not the ideas and that ideas are what we work with.

 

[KissMy]

I HAVE NO DEBT!!!

You leveraged indebted assholes need to let your stuff go back to your creditors so prices will drop & I can buy up some good stuff. Quit having the Fed print up money to pay for your stupidity.

I keep on telling you that the FED does not print money. The US Treasury prints our greenbacks and tries to keep enough in circulation to meet the needs of the citizens. As the population goes up, the amount of money in circulation usually goes up as that green paper is a means of facilitating exchange of produce, products and services.

The Federal Reserve Banks distribute new currency for the U.S. Treasury Department, which prints it.

Don't be a stooge Neubarth. They are creating money & debt at a far faster rate than population growth. This is why we have inflation. The true rate of inflation has been & is 8.5%. Now just imagine what will happen when the USG is forced to pay at least that 8.5% on its bonds to prevent Gold from being used as currency. Soon it will take all the taxes collected to do it. New currency is bankruptcy for a country. Just ask North Korea who were the last ones to do that.

 

[expat_panama]

...we have inflation. The true rate of inflation has been & is 8.5%...

LOL!!! You have us on that one, you've got the "truth" and all we have are price levels.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

...Wonky's chart is a lie. ...

It's obvious that you're the one who's lying...

This shows how attacking the idea is one thing and attacking the person is another.

We get a lot of good done by putting our ideas out and having them kicked around because it shows how robust they are. The problem of switching from attacking ideas to attacking people happens when people forget that we are not the ideas and that ideas are what we work with.

The final paragraph in your quoted post reads: "Liar." Might want to take your own advice here.

 

[saveliberty]

It's obvious that you're the one who's lying...

This shows how attacking the idea is one thing and attacking the person is another.

We get a lot of good done by putting our ideas out and having them kicked around because it shows how robust they are. The problem of switching from attacking ideas to attacking people happens when people forget that we are not the ideas and that ideas are what we work with.

The final paragraph in your quoted post reads: "Liar." Might want to take your own advice here.

He questioned your chart, not you. Of course, you have proven full of inaccuracies too.

 

[expat_panama]

...The final paragraph in your quoted post reads: "Liar." Might want to take your own advice here.

He questioned your chart, not you. Of course, you have proven full of inaccuracies too.

Thanks.

Communicating is hobbled in these text chats where we can't use eye contact/body language & other cues, so sometimes an explanation is clearer when it comes through someone else's words.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

This shows how attacking the idea is one thing and attacking the person is another.

We get a lot of good done by putting our ideas out and having them kicked around because it shows how robust they are. The problem of switching from attacking ideas to attacking people happens when people forget that we are not the ideas and that ideas are what we work with.

The final paragraph in your quoted post reads: "Liar." Might want to take your own advice here.

He questioned your chart, not you. Of course, you have proven full of inaccuracies too.

Fine: point them out politely and explain them logically and I'll admit to them as I've always done. You'll be much more gratified than you will be if you just keep posting "your [sic] an idiot" and I put you on ignore with all the other kids.

 

[Spoonman]

The final paragraph in your quoted post reads: "Liar." Might want to take your own advice here.

He questioned your chart, not you. Of course, you have proven full of inaccuracies too.

Fine: point them out politely and explain them logically and I'll admit to them as I've always done. You'll be much more gratified than you will be if you just keep posting "your [sic] an idiot" and I put you on ignore with all the other kids.

go for it

 

[saveliberty]

The final paragraph in your quoted post reads: "Liar." Might want to take your own advice here.

He questioned your chart, not you. Of course, you have proven full of inaccuracies too.

Fine: point them out politely and explain them logically and I'll admit to them as I've always done. You'll be much more gratified than you will be if you just keep posting "your [sic] an idiot" and I put you on ignore with all the other kids.

Given the choice, I go with ignore. Your a hopeless partisan with little to add to a debate. Of course, I'll still post comments about your posts, because I'll see them.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

He questioned your chart, not you. Of course, you have proven full of inaccuracies too.

Fine: point them out politely and explain them logically and I'll admit to them as I've always done. You'll be much more gratified than you will be if you just keep posting "your [sic] an idiot" and I put you on ignore with all the other kids.

Given the choice, I go with ignore. Your a hopeless partisan with little to add to a debate. Of course, I'll still post comments about your posts, because I'll see them.

As you wish. Bye.

 

[Cimerian]

Wonky you have it dead on. It is the public debt that is dragging down the economy. The poor always spend all their money and the rich are going to spend what they want. However, the majority, are in the middle. Middle class America just finished a massive spending spree. Now they are looking at the bill for it. No president caused this and no president can fix it. The best thing government can do is get out of the way and let it ride it's course. When the middle class pay down the huge debts they have rung up they will start spending again. Then we will see a recovery. Unfortunately, we are seeing the federal government add to our debts delaying the recovery.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

Wonky you have it dead on. It is the public debt that is dragging down the economy. The poor always spend all their money and the rich are going to spend what they want. However, the majority, are in the middle. Middle class America just finished a massive spending spree. Now they are looking at the bill for it. No president caused this and no president can fix it. The best thing government can do is get out of the way and let it ride it's course. When the middle class pay down the huge debts they have rung up they will start spending again. Then we will see a recovery. Unfortunately, we are seeing the federal government add to our debts delaying the recovery.

Overspending by households has been a problem for decades; that's very true. Now all the recent layoffs are making the effects a lot more obvious.

The government, of course, is now hamstrung by a tax cut that was never paid for and two wars that were never paid for, so it really doesn't have much choice but to get out of the way at this point.

 

[Cimerian]

Wonky you have it dead on. It is the public debt that is dragging down the economy. The poor always spend all their money and the rich are going to spend what they want. However, the majority, are in the middle. Middle class America just finished a massive spending spree. Now they are looking at the bill for it. No president caused this and no president can fix it. The best thing government can do is get out of the way and let it ride it's course. When the middle class pay down the huge debts they have rung up they will start spending again. Then we will see a recovery. Unfortunately, we are seeing the federal government add to our debts delaying the recovery.

Overspending by households has been a problem for decades; that's very true. Now all the recent layoffs are making the effects a lot more obvious.

The government, of course, is now hamstrung by a tax cut that was never paid for and two wars that were never paid for, so it really doesn't have much choice but to get out of the way at this point.

Sorry but I do not see how the tax cut passed by congress and the wars funded by congress have anything to do with domestic spending. I guess the tax cuts could slightly increase spending but other than that I see no difference. The true issue being is the American citizen is the one that put us in this mess and the American citizen is the one who will bring us out of it. Washington can not create jobs. Any job they create comes at the price of removing another job so at best they can be job neutral.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

Wonky you have it dead on. It is the public debt that is dragging down the economy. The poor always spend all their money and the rich are going to spend what they want. However, the majority, are in the middle. Middle class America just finished a massive spending spree. Now they are looking at the bill for it. No president caused this and no president can fix it. The best thing government can do is get out of the way and let it ride it's course. When the middle class pay down the huge debts they have rung up they will start spending again. Then we will see a recovery. Unfortunately, we are seeing the federal government add to our debts delaying the recovery.

Overspending by households has been a problem for decades; that's very true. Now all the recent layoffs are making the effects a lot more obvious.

The government, of course, is now hamstrung by a tax cut that was never paid for and two wars that were never paid for, so it really doesn't have much choice but to get out of the way at this point.

Sorry but I do not see how the tax cut passed by congress and the wars funded by congress have anything to do with domestic spending.

Mostly it impacts government spending on domestic programs, but it sounds like you were talking about private spending here.

The true issue being is the American citizen is the one that put us in this mess and the American citizen is the one who will bring us out of it. Washington can not create jobs. Any job they create comes at the price of removing another job so at best they can be job neutral.

Well, governments can and do create jobs, but the number is tiny in comparison to how many jobs the private sector can create.