It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

[MarcATL]

Who told you that, Obama?

Stop being silly.

Scripture states that His reward is with Him when he comes again.

What does that tell you?

Furthermore, Scripture states that the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing.

From the dust we came and from the dust we will return.

We don't get a prize immediately after death and become "angels" looking down on earth. Or looking up from hell while we burn.

It doesn't work like that. That is a false doctrine perpetuated by Satan and the Roman Catholic Church, who even went as far as invented a place called "purgatory."
(No offence to Roman Catholics on here)

If it does, please provide me the Scripture that backs that up.

I can provide the Scripture to back up what I'm saying.

I believe that God has called the children home. You and I may have a longer wait.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

My friend, the context of that text in Scripture was an actual live event where Jesus was preaching and there were children who also wanted to behold this Jesus and get next to Him, but the disciples were shunning them and chasing them away, then Jesus corrected them, as he was oft to do, letting them know the importance of letting the children come to Him, etc.

It certainly wasn't some analogy of kids going to heaven when they die as you're making it out to be.

That's quite a stretch. I think you know this.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Oh, well I base it on Scripture.

The Bible tells us what happens, which is we return to the dust.

I already stated the Scripture about the dead knowing nothing. To be specific, this is the text I was referring to. Ecclesiastes - Everything Is Meaningless - The words - Bible Gateway It tells us exactly what happens when we die.

Please refer me to where you are getting your understanding of the state of the dead from.

How do you know this is what really happens though?

OK, this question let's me know that you don't really take the Bible as God's word. Otherwise this wouldn't be a question.

That being the case, we really don't have a base point to debate on, because we have different standards or differing final authorities.

Again, my final authority on all matters is The Bible, what is yours?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, Marc, just asking a question.

The fact is we don't really, truly know what happens when we die. All we really have is faith ... whatever that faith is based on. For some it's the bible, for some religion for others more of a spirituality rather than anything 'religiously' based. And that faith sustains and comforts us during hard times, like the shooting.

 

[Too Tall]

Stop being silly.

Scripture states that His reward is with Him when he comes again.

What does that tell you?

Furthermore, Scripture states that the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing.

From the dust we came and from the dust we will return.

We don't get a prize immediately after death and become "angels" looking down on earth. Or looking up from hell while we burn.

It doesn't work like that. That is a false doctrine perpetuated by Satan and the Roman Catholic Church, who even went as far as invented a place called "purgatory."
(No offence to Roman Catholics on here)

If it does, please provide me the Scripture that backs that up.

I can provide the Scripture to back up what I'm saying.

I believe that God has called the children home. You and I may have a longer wait.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

My friend, the context of that text in Scripture was an actual live event where Jesus was preaching and there were children who also wanted to behold this Jesus and get next to Him, but the disciples were shunning them and chasing them away, then Jesus corrected them, as he was oft to do, letting them know the importance of letting the children come to Him, etc.

It certainly wasn't some analogy of kids going to heaven when they die as you're making it out to be.

That's quite a stretch. I think you know this.

I choose to believe that His words "for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" means that the little children, who were completely without sin, would be immediately admitted to heaven should they die.

We differ in our belief on this subject, but probably agree on what the Book says about what happens to we sinners who have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. Is it a stretch to think that you are one of those?

 

[MarcATL]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, Marc, just asking a question.

The fact is we don't really, truly know what happens when we die. All we really have is faith ... whatever that faith is based on. For some it's the bible, for some religion for others more of a spirituality rather than anything 'religiously' based. And that faith sustains and comforts us during hard times, like the shooting.

Oh I didn't think you were trying to be hard at all.

I welcome these sorts of debates and I engage in them quite frequently offline.

Your line of question/thinking I'm very familiar with, I understand where you're coming from.

That's why I asked you specifically, what's the final authority for you.

Faith has to be based on something. For me it's based on the Bible, which I believe is God's Word as given to man through Divine Inspiration. You stated that some it's religion, some is the bible, ect. I clearly stated for me its' the Bible and I'm wanting to know what is it for you.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, Marc, just asking a question.

The fact is we don't really, truly know what happens when we die. All we really have is faith ... whatever that faith is based on. For some it's the bible, for some religion for others more of a spirituality rather than anything 'religiously' based. And that faith sustains and comforts us during hard times, like the shooting.

Oh I didn't think you were trying to be hard at all.

I welcome these sorts of debates and I engage in them quite frequently offline.

Your line of question/thinking I'm very familiar with, I understand where you're coming from.

That's why I asked you specifically, what's the final authority for you.

Faith has to be based on something. For me it's based on the Bible, which I believe is God's Word as given to man through Divine Inspiration. You stated that some it's religion, some is the bible, ect. I clearly stated for me its' the Bible and I'm wanting to know what is it for you.

Combination of things, mostly religion. I guess. Having trouble with that (Catholic) since the abuse scandals. Not having trouble with faith or God just the religion part. I've never thought there was any 'one size fits all' answer for everyone and what ever works for a person ... works.

 

[PretentiousGuy]

Is calling something a "false doctrine" a practice in redundancy.

 

[Staidhup]

Only innocent children and those that believe in God and the message of his son Jesus Christ will go to heaven. One cannot believe in one and not the other. For those that have corrupted the teachings and word of God have committed an unforgivable sin.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Only 144000 will go to heaven and they won't go there till Judgement day.

Everyone else will be raised from the dead and judged. Those found to be Satan's followers will remain dead forever. Those found to follower's of God or uninitiated in his teachings will be given immortal bodies to live on a restored Earth. Those uninitiated will be taught God's word.

Revelations is clear on these points.

 

[uscitizen]

144000?

those preachers sure are scamming a bunch of people.

they done overbooked the hell out of the heaven cruise.
Can they be charged with fraud? Using their own holy book as evidence.

 

[BreezeWood]

It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

Faith has to be based on something. For me it's based on the Bible, which I believe is God's Word as given to man through Divine Inspiration.

... as given to man through Divine Inspiration.


you can no more be certain of that than what you are reading is what was meant.


from hearsay, the Ten Commandments were from God and yet their teachings are not from an original script but ones fabricated by the Bibles scribes.


our source the Garden of God suggests fulfillment can be accomplished in a lifetime and shedding as one is possible for a renewal of life.

 

[Wiseacre]

My friend, The Gospel isn't about feelings, as in what individuals feel about certain issues.

It's about The Truth.

It's very comforting for humans to believe that their loved ones aren't really dead, but looking down on them in heaven, that doesn't make it true.

Doesn't make it not true either.

I believe in Thus Said The Lord, and The Lord didn't say we get an instant trip to Heaven upon death.

Sorta left that impression though, no?

First of all, what the bible says may or may not really be the complete truth. It says a lot of contradictory things, one can accept parts of it or none of it and still believe in God or in Christianity.

Here's the deal, you can believe whatever you want, fine by me. But stomping on somebody's else's beliefs, I kinda have a problem with that. Marginalizing someone else for having a different viewpoint, that ain't cool in my book. I tend to lose a lot of respect for those who do that.

Wiseacre I don't know if you're a Christian or not, but what you think is contradictary is really not

Here's the deal, you cannot believe whatever you want and be right, certainly not everyone at the same time. There's only one Truth. Are you sure? Lots of religious or spiritual beliefs out there, maybe God doesn't care which one you accept. Me? I believe that one Truth is Scripture. I'm not marginilzing anyone's beliefs, I'm simply stating it's wrong, when and if it's wrong. And I'm willing and able to show you how from Scripture if necessary. Most are innocently wrong on many things...it's just the nature of it.

You are free to accept the Bible as holy and as the only truth. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I am not so sure any of us can really say who's wrong about anything, whatever the bible says. Not a christian BTW.

You adding that bit about losing respect is neither here nor there by the way, so I'm not sure why that part was necessary to this debate.

Wasn't necessary, but I have to wonder why you want to deny people the comfort of believing their loved ones, especially the children, are in a better place.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

Obama lied to us? Tell me it ain't so.

 

[MarcATL]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

Obama lied to us? Tell me it ain't so.

The majority of Christiandom lied to him actually. He's just going with the flow.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

Who told you that, Obama?

Stop being silly.

Scripture states that His reward is with Him when he comes again.

What does that tell you?

Furthermore, Scripture states that the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing.

From the dust we came and from the dust we will return.

We don't get a prize immediately after death and become "angels" looking down on earth. Or looking up from hell while we burn.

It doesn't work like that. That is a false doctrine perpetuated by Satan and the Roman Catholic Church, who even went as far as invented a place called "purgatory."
(No offence to Roman Catholics on here)

If it does, please provide me the Scripture that backs that up.

I can provide the Scripture to back up what I'm saying.

I can supply the Scripture to prove just about anything I want, anyone who studies theology can.

 

[MarcATL]

Only 144000 will go to heaven and they won't go there till Judgement day.

Everyone else will be raised from the dead and judged. Those found to be Satan's followers will remain dead forever. Those found to follower's of God or uninitiated in his teachings will be given immortal bodies to live on a restored Earth. Those uninitiated will be taught God's word.

Revelations is clear on these points.

This number represents a very specific set of people. At a very specific time.

It refers to those faithful Christians who are alive when Christ returns. They will be persecuted, but they will not see death.

Many Christians assume that number is referring to all of history, it isn't.

There's great debate on whether that number is literal or symbolic, which I'm not going to address at this time, but the number is specific to the time it occurs, which is referring to the time when Christ comes again. That much is clear.

 

[MarcATL]

Who told you that, Obama?

Stop being silly.

Scripture states that His reward is with Him when he comes again.

What does that tell you?

Furthermore, Scripture states that the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing.

From the dust we came and from the dust we will return.

We don't get a prize immediately after death and become "angels" looking down on earth. Or looking up from hell while we burn.

It doesn't work like that. That is a false doctrine perpetuated by Satan and the Roman Catholic Church, who even went as far as invented a place called "purgatory."
(No offence to Roman Catholics on here)

If it does, please provide me the Scripture that backs that up.

I can provide the Scripture to back up what I'm saying.

I can supply the Scripture to prove just about anything I want, anyone who studies theology can.

No you cannot, you can, however, sqew the Scripture to say anything you want. That much is true.

Good interpretation of Scripture includes at least three things.
1. What's the context of the Scripture
2. What was God saying to the people then
3. What's God saying to/mean for us today

 

[Quantum Windbag]

How do you know? Have you died?

I base all my beliefs on God's Word...The Bible.

What do you base your beliefs on sir?

I am willing to bet you don't actually base your beliefs on the Bible. One of the names of God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Since He is God of the living, not the dead, those people are obviously alive right now. Then we have the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus before Peter, James, and John.

Have you thought about John 3:36 and 11:26?

Let us examine one particular verse, John 6:47.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

The verb to be in that sentence is in the present active indicative tense, which means that the person is presently doing the action.

Present Active Indicative

Unless you are willing to argue that Jesus did not mean what he said you are going to have a hard time justifying soul sleep.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Stop being silly.

Scripture states that His reward is with Him when he comes again.

What does that tell you?

Furthermore, Scripture states that the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing.

From the dust we came and from the dust we will return.

We don't get a prize immediately after death and become "angels" looking down on earth. Or looking up from hell while we burn.

It doesn't work like that. That is a false doctrine perpetuated by Satan and the Roman Catholic Church, who even went as far as invented a place called "purgatory."
(No offence to Roman Catholics on here)

If it does, please provide me the Scripture that backs that up.

I can provide the Scripture to back up what I'm saying.

I can supply the Scripture to prove just about anything I want, anyone who studies theology can.

No you cannot, you can, however, sqew the Scripture to say anything you want. That much is true.

Good interpretation of Scripture includes at least three things.
1. What's the context of the Scripture
2. What was God saying to the people then
3. What's God saying to/mean for us today

You want a complete list of everything Jehovah's Witnesses ignore in order to justify their skewing of Scripture?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What happened Marc, find out that the John class didn't tell you everything?

 

[MarcATL]

What happened Marc, find out that the John class didn't tell you everything?

What's your answer to Eccl. 9:5, Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV - For the living know that they shall - Bible Gateway ??

And Rev. 22:12, Revelation 22:12 KJV - And, behold, I come quickly; and my - Bible Gateway ??

Like I always say, most everything can be sorted out in Genesis.

Let's take a look at what it means to be a living soul, aka living being.

Gen. 2:7 sorts that out for us quite nicely, Genesis 2:7 KJV - And the LORD God formed man of the dust - Bible Gateway

What we have here is a formula, as in 1 + 1 = 2

In this case the formula is dust + God's breath = living soul.

Dust w/o God's breath isn't a soul.
God's breath w/o the dust isn't a soul.
It's the two combined that makes a soul.
Once the two are separated the dusts returns to dust. Hence the term dust to dust.
The breath returns to God, not the soul, as we see in Eccl. 12:7, Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV - Then shall the dust return to the earth - Bible Gateway. Again, Eccl. 9:5 covers the state of the dead quite directly as seen above.

As I stated before, the confusion on the state of the dead was introduced by the Roman Catholic Church who invented purgatory, another mixture of pagan beliefs. It filtered through the rest of Christian denominations as such, however, it's not Biblically based.