Israeli Official Spills: We Knew Obama Wanted ‘Revenge’

[Coyote]

On the first - the agreement isn't complete.

Why does it matter? That clause of the agreement hasn't been struck.

A sunset clause isn't necessarily a bad thing if the object of the negotiations is to the get the best deal possible now

The object of a deal, any deal, isn't to be expedient, Coyote.

It's not being expedient - it's being pragmatic. And again, I refer you to the Salt talks.

No deal is created equal. And "pragmatism" is what caused this mess.

That doesn't make sense.

Of course it doesn't. People who are simply disinterested in the other position will often claim so.

No. I don't understand what you mean.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I've been reading all the crying and complaining that Obama is the most anti-semitic president ever and that he hates Israel yada yada yada. But beyond empty emoting - there is nothing specific.

Oh? And your dismissive attitude is quite specific.

When?

How could you not know? The year was 2011.

Barack Obama Israel must recognise 1967 borders - Telegraph

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20speech.html

Obama Call For 1967 Borders For Israel May Make For Awkward Meeting With Netanyahu

Netanyahu Rejects Obama Call for Palestinian State Based on 1967 Borders Fox News

After Obama speech Netanyahu rejects withdrawal to indefensible 1967 borders - Israel News Haaretz

How does that indicate a "hatred of Israel"? He's not stating Israel must revert to those borders. He's stating that those borders represent a starting point for negotiations - with mutually agreed land swaps. If you are working towards a 2-state solution that is probably the best way to go about it. Neither side will be completely happy.

Obama Call For 1967 Borders For Israel May Make For Awkward Meeting With Netanyahu

"The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states," the president said toward the end of a broader speech on the Middle East. "The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves and reach their potential in a sovereign and contiguous state."

While the president's position that Israel's borders should return to the borders it had before it occupied the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights marks a new government stance, the idea is hardly a breakthrough among experts and professional peace negotiators. At least one Washington think tank has already drawn several maps detailing possible swaps.

"It's somewhere between a big deal and no big deal," said Aaron David Miller, who spent 25 years as a Middle East negotiator for six U.S. secretaries of state. "And that is exactly what the administration wanted."​

I don't waste time with youtube. What conversation do you mean?

I just told you.

You mean when he called Netanyahu a "chickenshit" in private? And that means he hates Israel?

Are you kidding me?! Just why would you attempt to spin it? And yes, it does.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Israel is doing what is in THEIR best interest. Not ours.

Precisely, and that is what you have an issue with. It doesn't align with your ideals, therefore it must be wrong or "disrespectful."

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Israel is doing what is in THEIR best interest. Not ours.

Precisely, and that is what you have an issue with. It doesn't align with your ideals, therefore it must be wrong or "disrespectful."

Being out for number one means you are not an ally. That is a communal thing.

 

[Coyote]

I've been reading all the crying and complaining that Obama is the most anti-semitic president ever and that he hates Israel yada yada yada. But beyond empty emoting - there is nothing specific.

Oh? And your dismissive attitude is quite specific.

When?

How could you not know? The year was 2011.

Barack Obama Israel must recognise 1967 borders - Telegraph

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20speech.html

Obama Call For 1967 Borders For Israel May Make For Awkward Meeting With Netanyahu

Netanyahu Rejects Obama Call for Palestinian State Based on 1967 Borders Fox News

After Obama speech Netanyahu rejects withdrawal to indefensible 1967 borders - Israel News Haaretz

How does that indicate a "hatred of Israel"? He's not stating Israel must revert to those borders. He's stating that those borders represent a starting point for negotiations - with mutually agreed land swaps. If you are working towards a 2-state solution that is probably the best way to go about it. Neither side will be completely happy.

Obama Call For 1967 Borders For Israel May Make For Awkward Meeting With Netanyahu

"The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states," the president said toward the end of a broader speech on the Middle East. "The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves and reach their potential in a sovereign and contiguous state."

While the president's position that Israel's borders should return to the borders it had before it occupied the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights marks a new government stance, the idea is hardly a breakthrough among experts and professional peace negotiators. At least one Washington think tank has already drawn several maps detailing possible swaps.

"It's somewhere between a big deal and no big deal," said Aaron David Miller, who spent 25 years as a Middle East negotiator for six U.S. secretaries of state. "And that is exactly what the administration wanted."​

I don't waste time with youtube. What conversation do you mean?

I just told you.

You mean when he called Netanyahu a "chickenshit" in private? And that means he hates Israel?

Are you kidding me?! Just why would you attempt to spin it? And yes, it does.

It's not spinning. It's how frigging negotiations work - you start somewhere and the idea of those borders plus landswaps has been around. In fact, I think Olmert even offered something similar but was out of office before it could come about or be rejected. But when Obama says it - oops, it's he "hates Israel".

Calling another foreign leader, in private, "chickenshit" does not mean you hate that country.

Somewhere I read something about embarressing faux pas over the years where State Department officials had made derogatory notes about various dignitaries. It's the same sort of thing.

The thing is - you don't have any actual policies or actions that indicate Obama hates Israel. Clearly Obama and Netanyahu, as persons, don't get along well.

 

[ninja007]

Obama hates Israel and the US. FACT.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Obama hates Israel and the US. FACT.

You need to grow up, fact.

 

[Coyote]

Israel is doing what is in THEIR best interest. Not ours.

Precisely, and that is what you have an issue with. It doesn't align with your ideals, therefore it must be wrong or "disrespectful."

No - I don't have an issue with that. Israel can and should do what is in it's best interest - it's it's own nation. But that doesn't mean it's in our best interests and it doesn't mean it is not disrespectful to us. Likewise, we do what is in our best interests and it may clash with what Israel wants.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I've got to be in bed early tonight, so consider this my last response:

Calling another foreign leader, in private, "chickenshit" does not mean you hate that country.

When you call their leader "chickenshit" you essentially call the country he came from "chickenshit." You disrespect the people who voted for him. Basically it shows a lack of respect for the country in general.

The thing is - you don't have any actual policies or actions that indicate Obama hates Israel.

I gave you plenty of actions, you chose to dismiss them out of hand or explain them away. "

Clearly Obama and Netanyahu, as persons, don't get along well.

Okay then, why does Obama wish to "reassess" America's stances with Israel at the UN? That's the primary act of hatred towards Israel, right there.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Likewise, we do what is in our best interests and it may clash with what Israel wants.

Actually, I already explained to you that Israel is one of our interests. We are high on their list of their interests also.

Good night Coyote. I apologize if I got a little testy earlier.

 

[Coyote]

I've got to be in bed early tonight, so consider this my last response:

Calling another foreign leader, in private, "chickenshit" does not mean you hate that country.

When you call their leader "chickenshit" you essentially call the country he came from "chickenshit." You disrespect the people who voted for him. Basically it shows a lack of respect for the country in general.

If it were a public statement, I'd agree. But it was a comment made privately and I am sure many such comments fly around the diplomatic tables.

The thing is - you don't have any actual policies or actions that indicate Obama hates Israel.

I gave you plenty of actions, you chose to dismiss them out of hand or explain them away. "

You gave me 3, which don't amount to much as far as the claim of "hating Israel" goes.

Clearly Obama and Netanyahu, as persons, don't get along well.

Okay then, why does Obama wish to "reassess" America's stances with Israel at the UN? That's the primary act of hatred towards Israel, right there.

[/QUOTE]

It's consequences. Netanyahu stated that he would never support a Palestinian state. The US (and Israeli) positions have long been a 2-state solution. If Netanyahu decides he won't negotiate for it, then the only alternative is to turn to the UN and allow the process to continue there. That is not hatred.

 

[Coyote]

Likewise, we do what is in our best interests and it may clash with what Israel wants.

Actually, I already explained to you that Israel is one of our interests. We are high on their list of their interests also.

Good night Coyote. I apologize if I got a little testy earlier.

Good night TK, it is very..very late for me as well, and I got testy too...have a good night

 

[Billo_Really]

"The Times of Israel got it straight from an anonymous “senior Jerusalem official”: Obama wanted “revenge” in the wake of Netanyahu’s speech to Congress."

"The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told The Times of Israel that “it’s no secret” that the Obama administration had attempted to influence the outcome of the election…"

…“The White House is driven by three main motives,” the senior official said. “The first is revenge [over the Congress speech]. The second is frustration: It’s no secret that they were involved in an attempt to bring down the Netanyahu government – something that we have clear knowledge of – and failed. The third [motive] is the administration’s attempt to divert attention from the negotiations with Iran to the Palestinian issue.”

"Not only do Israeli policymakers have a full understanding of Obama’s involvement in Israeli elections, they have also already reasoned their way around Obama’s potential politicking at the UN:"

"
…The White House will attempt to “punish” Israel at the UN or the Security Council, the senior Israeli official said Tuesday, alluding to intimations by US officials to the effect that Washington could change its policy of vetoing anti-Israel measures and even pursue a unilateral Palestinian statehood initiative.

“Congress is currently our only means of preventing a series of harmful initiatives, on both the Iranian and the Palestinian front,” the official said. “If the US government will permit the recognition of a Palestinian state at the UN, then Congress will brandish its knives and defund the UN.” On Sunday, Republic Senator John McCain threatened to do just that."

Israeli Official Spills We Knew Obama Wanted Revenge PJ Tatler

Hey Barak?

Fuck you and fuck everyone who believes anything you say.

You are a fucking worthless piece of shit and I'd spit on your grave.

You fuckin' go to hell, asshole!

You got a lot of nerve talking about Obama's involvement in your elections, when you got your fucking, piece of shit organization AIPAC, all up in ours. Why don't all you Israeli mother-fuckers get the fuck out of MY GOVERNMENT?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Damn this insomnia.

If it were a public statement, I'd agree. But it was a comment made privately and I am sure many such comments fly around the diplomatic tables.

Private or public doesn't matter. If that is your (not you personally) true attitude towards your fellow world leaders, just imagine how you would approach your relations with their respective nations...

You gave me 3, which don't amount to much as far as the claim of "hating Israel" goes.

You asked, I gave. Actions speak louder than words.

It's consequences. Netanyahu stated that he would never support a Palestinian state.

I don't blame him. The Palestinians are never going to agree to a deal. Never. But should the consequences be that America abandon Israel?

The US (and Israeli) positions have long been a 2-state solution.

And how many years has it been? How long has that position been held? The solution has not materialized.

If Netanyahu decides he won't negotiate for it, then the only alternative is to turn to the UN and allow the process to continue there.

Congress will stop any such action on our end.

That is not hatred.

Funny, your definition of "hatred."

 

[georgephillip]

This isn't kindergarten. You'll have to do more than play pop up pictures with me, okay? Oh, and stop repeating that "Israel is occupying Palestine" meme, okay? Not really in the mood for it.

Try imagining how you would feel if greedy Jews stole the land your family had been living on for generations.
"The International Court of Justice,[4] the UN General Assembly[5] and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the 'Occupying Power'.[9]

"UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk called Israel’s occupation 'an affront to international law.'[10]

"The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under 'belligerent occupation'.[11]

"According to Talia Sasson, the High Court of Justice in Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than four decades that Israel’s presence in the West Bank is in violation of international law.[12]"
Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Coyote]

Damn this insomnia.

If it were a public statement, I'd agree. But it was a comment made privately and I am sure many such comments fly around the diplomatic tables.

Private or public doesn't matter. If that is your (not you personally) true attitude towards your fellow world leaders, just imagine how you would approach your relations with their respective nations...

It does matter to me because I don't doubt for a minute that Netanyahu makes similar remarks in private setting about Obama.. Netanyahu recieved a political gift in that Obama's private remark became public and he certainly made hay from it. That's not just being cynical - a lot of stuff that was supposed to be "private" communication became embarresingly public in the Snowden dump. You do not have to "like" someone to be able to deal with them professionally - you just need to be able to establish a working relationship and some common goals - whether it's your colleagues in the senate or foreign leaders or diplomats. Sometimes it goes beyond that into real friendships, and while that is helpful it is not necessary. I think you have a very naive view of these things work in the real world (and perhaps I have an overly cynical one).

You gave me 3, which don't amount to much as far as the claim of "hating Israel" goes.

You asked, I gave. Actions speak louder than words.

Actions speak louder than words indeed, let's review actions:

President Obama Advancing Israel s Security and Supporting Peace The White House

On July 27, 2012 the President signed the “United States-Israel Enhanced Security Cooperation Act of 2012”, which strengthens Israel’s qualitative military edge. The bill expressed bipartisan Congressional support for Administration initiatives that deepen U.S. defense and security cooperation with Israel, to include providing Israel with financial and technological assistance to produce defensive systems to counter the threat of rockets and missiles; access to U.S. manufactured defense equipment and excess defense articles; and increased opportunities to train with U.S. military forces.


Despite tough fiscal times, the President fought for and secured full funding for Israel in FY 2012, including $3 billion in Foreign Military Financing – the largest amount of funding for Israel in U.S. history.


The President secured an additional $205 million in FY 2011 to help produce an Israeli-developed short-range rocket defense system called Iron Dome, which has helped defend Israeli communities against rocket attacks by successfully striking rockets as they are fired at Israeli civilians.


In July 2012, President Obama provided an additional $70 million to Israel to ensure that Israel could maximize its production of the Iron Dome system for 2012. Over the next three years, the Administration intends to request additional funding for Iron Dome, based on an annual assessment of Israeli security requirements against an evolving threat.


Israeli forces now benefit from regular joint exercises and training opportunities, access to advanced U.S. military hardware, emergency stockpiles, and favorable terms for the acquisition of equipment...

...The President personally intervened to help avert catastrophe when a violent mob stormed the Israeli Embassy in Cairo. Afterwards, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu said of the President: “I requested his assistance at a decisive—I would even say fateful—moment. He said he would do everything possible, and this is what he did. He activated all of the United States’ means and influence — which are certainly considerable. I believe we owe him a special debt of gratitude.”

​

Yes, TK, actions certainly speak louder than words. Let's weigh these considerable actions against a private comment of "chickenshit", a reaction to a speech given to Congress in opposition to the White House, and his taking Netanyahu at his word when he claimed there would be no Palestinian state on his watch.

It's consequences. Netanyahu stated that he would never support a Palestinian state.

I don't blame him. The Palestinians are never going to agree to a deal. Never. But should the consequences be that America abandon Israel?

The Palestinians still overwelmingly support a 2-state solution even though fewer believe it possible any more. Based on Netanyahu's stated words - and his actions (or lack there of) towards any real deal, I would venture to say that it's the Netanyahu regime that is never going to agree to a deal and never intended to in the first place. Sure - you're going to argue about pre-conditions, but don't forget Netanyahu's own pre-conditions, which amount to the same thing even though he labeled them "pre-conditions for peace".

The US (and Israeli) positions have long been a 2-state solution.

And how many years has it been? How long has that position been held? The solution has not materialized.

Of course not. It takes two to tango and both sides have been stubborn. It doesn't help that the Palestinian government is so fractured or that Hamas refuses to acknowledge Israel right to exist or that Israel, in defiance of international law, is continuing it's settlement building and even openly admitted that it was deliberately closing Palestinians out in Jeruselum.

If Netanyahu decides he won't negotiate for it, then the only alternative is to turn to the UN and allow the process to continue there.

Congress will stop any such action on our end.

Congress may not be able to. Maybe it's about time some real pressure was put on Israel. Past presidents have been to chickenshit to do it.

That is not hatred.

Funny, your definition of "hatred."

Oh?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Instead, O got his head thumped again.

 

[Antares]

"The Times of Israel got it straight from an anonymous “senior Jerusalem official”: Obama wanted “revenge” in the wake of Netanyahu’s speech to Congress."

"The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told The Times of Israel that “it’s no secret” that the Obama administration had attempted to influence the outcome of the election…"

…“The White House is driven by three main motives,” the senior official said. “The first is revenge [over the Congress speech]. The second is frustration: It’s no secret that they were involved in an attempt to bring down the Netanyahu government – something that we have clear knowledge of – and failed. The third [motive] is the administration’s attempt to divert attention from the negotiations with Iran to the Palestinian issue.”

"Not only do Israeli policymakers have a full understanding of Obama’s involvement in Israeli elections, they have also already reasoned their way around Obama’s potential politicking at the UN:"

"
…The White House will attempt to “punish” Israel at the UN or the Security Council, the senior Israeli official said Tuesday, alluding to intimations by US officials to the effect that Washington could change its policy of vetoing anti-Israel measures and even pursue a unilateral Palestinian statehood initiative.

“Congress is currently our only means of preventing a series of harmful initiatives, on both the Iranian and the Palestinian front,” the official said. “If the US government will permit the recognition of a Palestinian state at the UN, then Congress will brandish its knives and defund the UN.” On Sunday, Republic Senator John McCain threatened to do just that."

Israeli Official Spills We Knew Obama Wanted Revenge PJ Tatler

Hey Barak?

Fuck you and fuck everyone who believes anything you say.

You are a fucking worthless piece of shit and I'd spit on your grave.

You fuckin' go to hell, asshole!

You got a lot of nerve talking about Obama's involvement in your elections, when you got your fucking, piece of shit organization AIPAC, all up in ours. Why don't all you Israeli mother-fuckers get the fuck out of MY GOVERNMENT?

Oh please stop I'm frightened , moron