Zone1 Is Your Body a Temple or a Graveyard?

[surada]

If you are saying that my body is a graveyard if I eat meat, then I guess my body is a graveyard. But I don’t see it that way. To live is to consume. You might as well argue all life is wrong.

Animals kill and eat other animals. Fish eat other fish.

 

[surada]

Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the pascha had to be sacrificed. So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the pascha for us, that we may eat it.” They said to him, “Where will you have us prepare it?” (Luke 22:7-8)

And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the pascha, his disciples said to him, “Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the pascha”? And he sent two of his disciples, and said to them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you…” (Mark 14:12-13)

 

[SweetSue92]

You really need to understand the doctrine of "dominion" and what it really means for Mankind, but especially the self professed Christian.

God gave Man DOMINION over the rest of HIS Creation, and I guarantee you it DOES NOT mean what you think it means.

God has dominion over Man. How does God treat human beings? Does he torture us? Does He treat us with contempt? Does He treat us like a worthless CROP?

God LOVES us even though we rarely deserve it. He is INFINITELY superior to us, yet He SERVES us. When Jesus came He showed us what DOMINION really means. He came to SERVE.

Dominion reflects itself in STEWARDSHIP NOT OPPRESSION.

GOD gave us dominion and YES, GOD is judging you as a "Christian" by how you implement that stewardship in your personal life.

Do you ever actually THINK about these everyday choices you make? Does your carnal appetite for animal flesh cause you to excuse the abuse and torture these animals endure for 5 minutes on your tongue?

I've told you, and others here, that several, if not all the apostles were vegan. We have a historical record. So was the first century Church in Jerusalem even before the Church in Rome grew in power.

If you know those things, why wouldn't you strive to be like THEM and not the counterfeit church of Rome?

Dominion is RESPONSIBILITY, not OPPRESSION. It is not torture of creatures that God has entrusted to your care. Yes, you ARE being judged by HOW YOU TREAT those creatures God has put in your care.

My prayer for you, and everyone else, is that you will actually THINK about these things ant make some effort to see things as GOD sees them.

Get into a church and bounce these ideas around other Christians. Real Christians.

 

[surada]

How do you excuse the FACT that the prophets and Jesus and His disciples followed God's intent for Man concerning eating meat?
I know you love to "debate" this but you really have a shallow understanding on this topic.

Didn't Jesus go to the temple and sacrifice?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

So me quoting how people are saved, according to Scripture, is a "misapplication of Scripture"? Why because you think it included veganism in your church on one?

No

Because your understanding is incomplete and, I can tell now, willfully incomplete.

Be ye perfect as your Lord is perfect.

Judgement will begin with the House of God

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Get into a church and bounce these ideas around other Christians. Real Christians.

You know NOTHING about my personal life, except what I have revealed here (which isn't much) yet you prattle on

Now, instead of the personal insults, how about addressing the facts I have provided. You don't seem eager to deal with the actual topic.

Does a mother have dominion over her child? Does she have the right to torture or murder her child?

 

[buttercup]

Just to start: please cite where in the Bible it says animals are "innocent".

PS I am not saying that we should be callous, heartless and cruel toward animals. But there IS a created order. It starts in Genesis and weaves throughout the Scriptures.

I'm going to address the second part of ^ this reply later. Because that's something you have gotten so terribly wrong. For now, I'm just going to answer the first part.

Sin is a transgression of God’s law. It's rebellion against God. Like young children or babies, animals do not have the same capacity we have to understand concepts like sin. Therefore, they are not held to the same standard that we are, as humans above the age of accountability.

Secondly, it was humans, not animals, who chose to rebel against God in the first place. If you want scriptures, we can start with Romans 5:12. “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man…” No mention of animals there.

Unfortunately, all of creation was affected by our choice to disobey God:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.​

​

Romans 8:20-22​

To sum this up, animals didn’t sin, we did. Animals are not considered to be moral agents.

Like young children or babies, animals are innocent.

And honestly, the more I think and learn about this topic, the more abhorrent this world looks to me, because what we as human beings have done is reprehensible.

We have betrayed the most innocent among us, who trust us and who look to us to take care of them. Instead of taking care of them and loving them, we BETRAY them, exploit them, harm, abuse, torture, and needlessly kill them, for our own interests. That is the exact opposite of what we were supposed to do!

Make no mistake. The Bible is clear that when Jesus comes back, in the age to come, the violence and cruelty of this world will be a thing of the past. Are you ready for that? I'm not singling you out, but the reason I ask is because like most people, you seem to prefer the status quo of this fallen world, at least as it pertains to carnism and the topic of animals. As Christians, we are taught to prepared for what is to come, like the wise virgins were in that parable, and that is just one example of the teaching that we should be ready for the future instead of opposing it.

According to the Bible, here is the future:

The wolf will live with the lamb,​

and the leopard will lie down with the goat.​

The calf, the young lion, and the fatling will be together,​

and a child will lead them.​

​

The cow and the bear will graze,​

their young ones will lie down together,​

and the lion will eat straw like the ox.​

​

An infant will play beside the cobra’s pit,​

and a toddler will put his hand into a snake’s den.​

​

None will harm or destroy another​

on My entire holy mountain,​

for the land will be as full​

of the knowledge of the Lord​

as the sea is filled with water.​

​

Isaiah 11:6-9​

 

[buttercup]

You might as well argue all life is wrong.

Come on ding. You do realize this is a fallen world? So yes, the way things are now is not how they were originally designed or intended to be.

I think that sometimes we get so used to things the way they are (in this fallen world) that we just see it as normal. But from a biblical and spiritual perspective, we should not be considering this fallen world as normal, in the sense of nothing wrong with it. Because that's just not the case. Of course atheists and non-christians will see that differently, because they don't agree with the whole idea of this being a fallen world.

 

[buttercup]

Get into a church and bounce these ideas around other Christians. Real Christians.

Why did you thumb down his post about dominion? What he said about dominion was absolutely, 100% correct.

Here's a video I did on the topic, but this video just scratches the surface...

(this is part of a series)

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Come on ding. You do realize this is a fallen world? So yes, the way things are now is not how they were originally designed or intended to be.

As a professing Christian, everyone needs to examine the COMMON beliefs of the culture. It is VERY likely that if you're in agreement with "the World" then you're probably believing a lie -- otherwise, God would never have needed to COMMAND His people, "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!"

We were called to be a "peculiar" people, noticably different from those in the common culture. Do you think I'm "peculiar" SweetSue92

 

[ding]

Come on ding. You do realize this is a fallen world? So yes, the way things are now is not how they were originally designed or intended to be.

I think that sometimes we get so used to things the way they are (in this fallen world) that we just see it as normal. But from a biblical and spiritual perspective, we should not be considering this fallen world as normal, in the sense of nothing wrong with it. Because that's just not the case. Of course atheists and non-christians will see that differently, because they don't agree with the whole idea of this being a fallen world.

I don't believe the world is fallen though and I am a Christian. I see the world as quite amazing. Man being fallible does not make him fallen, it makes him fallible but still capable of doing many great and good things.

 

[ding]

Does a mother have dominion over her child? Does she have the right to torture or murder her child?

It's not a question of rights, it's a question of free will. Does she have free will to torture or murder her child? And isn't that ultimately between her and God?

 

[surada]

I'm going to address the second part of ^ this reply later. Because that's something you have gotten so terribly wrong. For now, I'm just going to answer the first part.

Sin is a transgression of God’s law. It's rebellion against God. Like young children or babies, animals do not have the same capacity we have to understand concepts like sin. Therefore, they are not held to the same standard that we are, as humans above the age of accountability.

Secondly, it was humans, not animals, who chose to rebel against God in the first place. If you want scriptures, we can start with Romans 5:12. “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man…” No mention of animals there.

Unfortunately, all of creation was affected by our choice to disobey God:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.​

​

Romans 8:20-22​

To sum this up, animals didn’t sin, we did. Animals are not considered to be moral agents.

Like young children or babies, animals are innocent.

And honestly, the more I think and learn about this topic, the more abhorrent this world looks to me, because what we as human beings have done is reprehensible.

We have betrayed the most innocent among us, who trust us and who look to us to take care of them. Instead of taking care of them and loving them, we BETRAY them, exploit them, harm, abuse, torture, and needlessly kill them, for our own interests. That is the exact opposite of what we were supposed to do!

Make no mistake. The Bible is clear that when Jesus comes back, in the age to come, the violence and cruelty of this world will be a thing of the past. Are you ready for that? I'm not singling you out, but the reason I ask is because like most people, you seem to prefer the status quo of this fallen world, at least as it pertains to carnism and the topic of animals. As Christians, we are taught to prepared for what is to come, like the wise virgins were in that parable, and that is just one example of the teaching that we should be ready for the future instead of opposing it.

According to the Bible, here is the future:

The wolf will live with the lamb,​

and the leopard will lie down with the goat.​

The calf, the young lion, and the fatling will be together,​

and a child will lead them.​

​

The cow and the bear will graze,​

their young ones will lie down together,​

and the lion will eat straw like the ox.​

​

An infant will play beside the cobra’s pit,​

and a toddler will put his hand into a snake’s den.​

​

None will harm or destroy another​

on My entire holy mountain,​

for the land will be as full​

of the knowledge of the Lord​

as the sea is filled with water.​

​

Isaiah 11:6-9​

Isaiah 11:6-9. This passage is apocalyptic and highly symbolical, obviously. It is not talking about wolves and lambs, but it is talking about Jew and Gentile, Roman and Greek, German and French and any other groups which oppose one another in the world being united in God’s church.

 

[buttercup]

I don't believe the world is fallen though and I am a Christian. I see the world as quite amazing. Man being fallible does not make him fallen, it makes him fallible but still capable of doing many great and good things.

Maybe you're going by a different definition. Because the idea that this is a fallen world is biblical. Plus it's something that we can plainly see with our own eyes. Obviously this is not a paradise anymore.

But don't get me wrong. I agree with you that this world is amazing, there is still beauty and wonder and good things... in addition to the bad stuff. And I also agree that just because mankind is fallible doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing great and good things.

So "fallen" doesn't mean that everything is terrible, it just means that ever since sin came into the world, the world changed, creation changed, and the way things are now is not the way it was in the very beginning.

 

[ding]

Maybe you're going by a different definition. Because the idea that this is a fallen world is biblical. Plus it's something that we can plainly see with our own eyes. Obviously this is not a paradise anymore.

But don't get me wrong. I agree with you that this world is amazing, there is still beauty and wonder and good things... in addition to the bad stuff. And I also agree that just because mankind is fallible doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing great and good things.

So "fallen" doesn't mean that everything is terrible, it just means that ever since sin came into the world, the world changed, creation changed, and the way things are now is not the way it was in the very beginning.

I think that is subject to interpretation. Where exactly does the bible EXPLICITLY state this is a fallen world?

 

[buttercup]

Isaiah 11:6-9. This passage is apocalyptic and highly symbolical, obviously. It is not talking about wolves and lambs, but it is talking about Jew and Gentile, Roman and Greek, German and French and any other groups which oppose one another in the world being united in God’s church.

I know what your opinion is on the bible, Christianity and anything supernatural. And again, I have seen what kind of posts you give thumbs ups to, and what kind of posts you give negative reactions to. Frankly, the way you take the bible is almost no different than the way an atheist does.

So thanks for your opinion, but it is just that, an opinion.

The bottom line is - God's original design, intent and ultimate plan is made crystal clear in the bible, for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear. And that is PEACE, not violence, war, cruelty, evil, or killing.

 

[buttercup]

I think that is subject to interpretation. Where exactly does the bible EXPLICITLY state this is a fallen world?

I was just about to sign off here, so for now I'm just going to do a copy / paste from an article on this topic.

_______


The word fallen is used in the Bible to describe someone or something spiritually and morally degraded. Israel is described as “fallen” (Amos 5:2), as are angels (Isaiah 14:12; Revelation 12:4) and the glory of mankind (1 Peter 1:24). Each of these has fallen away from the heights of God’s good will for them, fallen into sin, and therefore fallen under the just wrath of God. Those in a fallen state suffer the degrading and deadly spiritual, moral, and social consequences of sinfulness.

Several Bible passages speak of this kind of downfall: 1 Corinthians 10:12 warns Christ’s followers, “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!” Falling into sin is the opposite of growing up in righteousness. In Revelation 2:5, Jesus speaks to the church of Ephesus, which had left its first love: “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first” (ESV).

The whole world of mankind has fallen:

• from friendship with God into proud estrangement from Him and enmity with Him; this leaves us diseased and dying in every part of our personalities and bodies (Genesis 2:16; 3:2-19; Exodus 15:26; Deuteronomy 30:15–20)

• from our full reflection of His likeness into shattered, distorted images, suffering the results of our brokenness (Genesis 6:5; Matthew 15:19; Romans 1:14—2:16; Romans 3:9–20)

• from joyful obedience to God’s rules so as to fulfill His superlative design for our lives into lawless rebellion and constant frustration and warfare at every level of society (Genesis 3:14–16; James 4:1–10)

• from the beauty, tranquility, and vitality of godly family life into a cesspool of sexual-identify confusion, domestic strife, and aimlessness (Genesis 3:16; Romans 1:14—2:16; Galatians 5:19–21)

• from dominion as trustees of God’s world into a selfish exploitation of the land and the resulting ecological disaster (Genesis 3:17–19; Ecclesiastes 5:8–17; Haggai 1:6)

• from knowledge of God’s enlightening truth into the darkness of ignorance and the confusion of depraved minds (Genesis 2:17; Proverbs 1—31; Judges 1—21; Romans 1:28)

To live in a fallen world means we struggle with sin on a daily basis. We experience heartache and pain. We witness natural disasters and staggering loss. Injustice, inhumanity, and falsehood seem to hold sway. Discord and trouble are commonplace. None of this was God’s original plan for humanity. We fell from our original position in the Garden of Eden. We now live in a fallen world, and all creation “groans” under the consequences of our sin (Romans 8:22).

The good news is that God does not intend His world to forever groan. Through Jesus Christ, God is repairing His creation:

• restoring friendship with Himself in Jesus Christ, giving us eternal life (John 10:10; 15:15; Romans 3:21–31; 5:1–11; 6:1–14; 8:1–4; 8:22–23; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Ephesians 1:3—2:22; Colossians 1:15–22)

• restoring the reflection of God’s likeness in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:28–32; 1 Corinthians 6:11)

• restoring His rules for a fulfilling life in Jesus Christ, resulting in true peace and prosperity (Matthew 5—7; Ephesians 5:15–21; James 2:8)

• restoring His design for the family through Jesus Christ (Luke 1:17; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:21—6:4; Colossians 3:18–21)

• restoring man’s proper dominion in caring for God’s world (Romans 8:18–21)

Jesus Christ has promised to return, and when He comes back, He will finish setting everything right forever (Isaiah 2:2–4; 25:6–9; 65:17–25; Revelation 20—22). Don’t miss God’s final invitation to all fallen people: “Come!” (Revelation 22:17). All who come to God by faith in Jesus Christ will be restored.

source

 

[ding]

I was just about to sign off here, so for now I'm just going to do a copy / paste from an article on this topic.

_______


The word fallen is used in the Bible to describe someone or something spiritually and morally degraded. Israel is described as “fallen” (Amos 5:2), as are angels (Isaiah 14:12; Revelation 12:4) and the glory of mankind (1 Peter 1:24). Each of these has fallen away from the heights of God’s good will for them, fallen into sin, and therefore fallen under the just wrath of God. Those in a fallen state suffer the degrading and deadly spiritual, moral, and social consequences of sinfulness.

Several Bible passages speak of this kind of downfall: 1 Corinthians 10:12 warns Christ’s followers, “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!” Falling into sin is the opposite of growing up in righteousness. In Revelation 2:5, Jesus speaks to the church of Ephesus, which had left its first love: “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first” (ESV).

The whole world of mankind has fallen:

• from friendship with God into proud estrangement from Him and enmity with Him; this leaves us diseased and dying in every part of our personalities and bodies (Genesis 2:16; 3:2-19; Exodus 15:26; Deuteronomy 30:15–20)

• from our full reflection of His likeness into shattered, distorted images, suffering the results of our brokenness (Genesis 6:5; Matthew 15:19; Romans 1:14—2:16; Romans 3:9–20)

• from joyful obedience to God’s rules so as to fulfill His superlative design for our lives into lawless rebellion and constant frustration and warfare at every level of society (Genesis 3:14–16; James 4:1–10)

• from the beauty, tranquility, and vitality of godly family life into a cesspool of sexual-identify confusion, domestic strife, and aimlessness (Genesis 3:16; Romans 1:14—2:16; Galatians 5:19–21)

• from dominion as trustees of God’s world into a selfish exploitation of the land and the resulting ecological disaster (Genesis 3:17–19; Ecclesiastes 5:8–17; Haggai 1:6)

• from knowledge of God’s enlightening truth into the darkness of ignorance and the confusion of depraved minds (Genesis 2:17; Proverbs 1—31; Judges 1—21; Romans 1:28)

To live in a fallen world means we struggle with sin on a daily basis. We experience heartache and pain. We witness natural disasters and staggering loss. Injustice, inhumanity, and falsehood seem to hold sway. Discord and trouble are commonplace. None of this was God’s original plan for humanity. We fell from our original position in the Garden of Eden. We now live in a fallen world, and all creation “groans” under the consequences of our sin (Romans 8:22).

The good news is that God does not intend His world to forever groan. Through Jesus Christ, God is repairing His creation:

• restoring friendship with Himself in Jesus Christ, giving us eternal life (John 10:10; 15:15; Romans 3:21–31; 5:1–11; 6:1–14; 8:1–4; 8:22–23; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Ephesians 1:3—2:22; Colossians 1:15–22)

• restoring the reflection of God’s likeness in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:28–32; 1 Corinthians 6:11)

• restoring His rules for a fulfilling life in Jesus Christ, resulting in true peace and prosperity (Matthew 5—7; Ephesians 5:15–21; James 2:8)

• restoring His design for the family through Jesus Christ (Luke 1:17; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:21—6:4; Colossians 3:18–21)

• restoring man’s proper dominion in caring for God’s world (Romans 8:18–21)

Jesus Christ has promised to return, and when He comes back, He will finish setting everything right forever (Isaiah 2:2–4; 25:6–9; 65:17–25; Revelation 20—22). Don’t miss God’s final invitation to all fallen people: “Come!” (Revelation 22:17). All who come to God by faith in Jesus Christ will be restored.

source

So where in the bible does it EXPLICITLY state the world is fallen?

 

[ding]

The answer is no where in the bible does it explicitly state the world is fallen.

Like I said... it is subject to interpretation.

 

[buttercup]

So where in the bible does it EXPLICITLY state the world is fallen?

Read Genesis 3. The bible uses the word "cursed" but the meaning is the same.

And I don't want to be too hard on you, but ding.... just look at the nightly news. And in addition to the moral evils, look at disease, sickness, natural disasters, extinctions, and the ongoing destruction of nature and the physical world. This isn't rocket science.

Do you actually think this is paradise?