Is waterboarding & sleep deprivation torture?

[oreo]

I had to laugh because there are two threads started by a liberal on this board. The first bashing Dick Chenney & his use of waterboarding on the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Most recently another thread started regarding charging P. Bush & Dick Chenney for war crimes for treatment of prisoners at CLUB GITMO the island paradise prison resort.

So my question to all of you, since LIBERALS have repeatedly refused to answer this question: They have avoided answering this question at all corners.

Here it is:

If you had a loved one, someone you love more than life itself, that was captured by a terrorist group. One of them was caught. You know that your loved one only has hours left before he/she is killed. All the coffee, donuts & sweet talking this terrorist is not working. The terrorist will not disclose where your loved one is. Would you tell the interregators to use all means, including waterboarding, to encourage this terrorist to talk? Or according to the liberals on this board, would you be more afraid that by waterboarding this terrorist to save your loved ones life, you would only be creating another terrorist?

Answer with:

1. You would approve of waterboarding this terrorist to save your loved ones life?
2. You would dis-approve of waterboarding this terrorist, or using any other means to get information from him, because of your fear that you would only be creating another terrorist?

A special note to liberals on this board: If you get on this thread & refuse to answer with a simple # 1 or # 2, then I will presume that you are O.K. with waterboarding a terrorist to save your loved ones life, but are opposed to it when someone else uses it to save theirs.

 

[DavidS]

Yes and I hope they continue to do it to as many Arabs as possible!

 

[Bern80]

1. You would approve of waterboarding this terrorist to save your loved ones life?
2. You would dis-approve of waterboarding this terrorist, or using any other means to get information from him, because of your fear that you would only be creating another terrorist?

1) I would modify slightly in that I would approve IF it would save a loved one's life. My....skepticism I guess would be the word, about torture is purely practical. I guess we would have to do a rather morbid study to find out what percent of tortured individuals divulged accurate information as a result, vs. saying nothing, vs. saying anything. The later is important because I have to think at some point some will do just about anything to make pain stop. Then time is wasted to follow an inaccurate lead. That's my real issue with it. Is torture a reliable means of obtaining ACCURATE information?

 

[aztech]

I have no issue with torturing terrorists..none.

My concern (just as with the death penalty) is the innocent people that get the treatment.

You had those 2 Brits at Gitmo, who were later proven innocent and released, who suffered both of these treatments. That is my only problem with it.

There were some folks on here earlier in the week who made excellent points about the reasons for using it and I have to say they made sense....this is the one part I still struggle with.

 

[Care4all]

water boarding IS torture, or at least it was defined as such, in US history.

I have read that we prosecuted certain Japanese people, after the War, for WAR CRIMES/torture....and the means of torture the Japanese used was water torture, very similar to water boarding.

so, yes, water boarding is torture according to the USA imho.

and to your last question with the two options, neither are the option of my choice!

care

 

[KittenKoder]

Torture is not okay, death fine but torture is the one true evil of humanity. Here's the option you always forget:

3. Sending in military to get the 'loved one' instead of just blowing up whole areas or using it as an excuse to commit such vile acts.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Neither are torture. Both are acceptable. As for the response " Just send in the military" umm where do you send them if you do NOT know where the hostages are?

 

[aztech]

Gunny - I am sorry, but by definition both are torture...

Torture is defined as: any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

However, that does not mean that it is not acceptable...based on the greater good argument.

 

[KittenKoder]

Many evils are committed for 'the greater good' but they always result in nothing but more evil for 'the greater good.'

 

[WillowTree]

See? I said it all along. Liberals are willing to let millions die so a terrorist is not made uncomfortable. Which is the main reason a liberal should never be in charge. We are in mortal danger! Put the teapot on!




Idiots!

 

[Paulie]

What about Bern's question of potentially inaccurate information divulged due to unbearable pain or discomfort?

I'm sure you could probably torture someone to the point of saying just about ANYTHING to get the pain to stop, even if only for a brief time.

 

[WillowTree]

so what would be your plan? I keep trying to get an answer to that question.

 

[Silence]

See? I said it all along. Liberals are willing to let millions die so a terrorist is not made uncomfortable. Which is the main reason a liberal should never be in charge. We are in mortal danger! Put the teapot on!




Idiots!

You're a flippin idiot Willow.

Historically speaking the United States does NOT engage in the same type of behavior as those we oppose. The UN was formed because of US, other leaders signed the Geneva Convention because of US. We did it for the protection of our own soldiers.

Ask yourself if you'd be okay with OUR own military personnel being waterboarded, if it meant that the enemy got the information they were looking for, such as strategic positioning and weapons information?

You can make the argument that they are terrorists and they get what they deserve but the fact remains that there is NO verified evidence that torture results in actionable intelligence, in fact it's just the opposite, especially when dealing with a terrorist. What is to stop them from lying? they have no desire to help the US and hurting them won't make them any more inclined to help us.

 

[KittenKoder]

See? I said it all along. Liberals are willing to let millions die so a terrorist is not made uncomfortable. Which is the main reason a liberal should never be in charge. We are in mortal danger! Put the teapot on!




Idiots!

Um ... yeah. Considering the example was for saving only one person this is just a trap, making you evil not intelligent. Also you know so little of terrorism it's just sad, like so many people in the US.

You can all sit in your comfy homes, ranting and raving that the terrorists are going to kill everyone to justify torture of everyone (most who have been are still not guilty of anything) just like terrorists. You are not different than they are because THAT is what terrorists do, they don't kill, they threaten and torture. They only kill when they are done or want attention. Just like a spoiled toddler who only gets attention when they scream and hit.

 

[KittenKoder]

Oh, and the terrorists believe they are doing it for 'the greater good' as well.

 

[Silence]

1. You would approve of waterboarding this terrorist to save your loved ones life? You are asking a question that is impossible to answer and you know it. Of course people would do whatever it took to save their loved one.....but the fact remains that the chances of getting the information sought by waterboarding are slim to none anyway, especailly if it's in fact a terrorist.

2. You would dis-approve of waterboarding this terrorist, or using any other means to get information from him, because of your fear that you would only be creating another terrorist?
I disapprove of waterboarding for ANYONE, terrorist or not because it's never been shown to actually get the result that the interregator wants. If anything it makes the terrorist MORE determined. These people don't care what you do to them, they view the U.S. as evil. Show them human compassion and perhaps you could change their view of what an American actually is. By torturing them, you feed into what they already believe us to be. therefore it's fruitless effort not to mention it makes us as guilty as them.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You're a flippin idiot Willow.

Historically speaking the United States does NOT engage in the same type of behavior as those we oppose. The UN was formed because of US, other leaders signed the Geneva Convention because of US. We did it for the protection of our own soldiers.

Ask yourself if you'd be okay with OUR own military personnel being waterboarded, if it meant that the enemy got the information they were looking for, such as strategic positioning and weapons information?

You can make the argument that they are terrorists and they get what they deserve but the fact remains that there is NO verified evidence that torture results in actionable intelligence, in fact it's just the opposite, especially when dealing with a terrorist. What is to stop them from lying? they have no desire to help the US and hurting them won't make them any more inclined to help us.

Bullshit, as a matter of fact OUR soldiers are not treated according to any standard other then murder if captured. Usually BY torture.

Some forms of Torture DO yield information. Sleep deprivation is simply not torture no matter how you want to twist it. Water boarding is ACCEPTABLE. Even with those practices we treat our enemies millions times better then they treat ours and that has been true in EVERY war.

 

[WillowTree]

You're a flippin idiot Willow.

Historically speaking the United States does NOT engage in the same type of behavior as those we oppose. The UN was formed because of US, other leaders signed the Geneva Convention because of US. We did it for the protection of our own soldiers.

Ask yourself if you'd be okay with OUR own military personnel being waterboarded, if it meant that the enemy got the information they were looking for, such as strategic positioning and weapons information?

You can make the argument that they are terrorists and they get what they deserve but the fact remains that there is NO verified evidence that torture results in actionable intelligence, in fact it's just the opposite, especially when dealing with a terrorist. What is to stop them from lying? they have no desire to help the US and hurting them won't make them any more inclined to help us.

so I'm waiting to hear your plan Stan!

 

[WillowTree]

You're a flippin idiot Willow.

Historically speaking the United States does NOT engage in the same type of behavior as those we oppose. The UN was formed because of US, other leaders signed the Geneva Convention because of US. We did it for the protection of our own soldiers.

Ask yourself if you'd be okay with OUR own military personnel being waterboarded, if it meant that the enemy got the information they were looking for, such as strategic positioning and weapons information?

You can make the argument that they are terrorists and they get what they deserve but the fact remains that there is NO verified evidence that torture results in actionable intelligence, in fact it's just the opposite, especially when dealing with a terrorist. What is to stop them from lying? they have no desire to help the US and hurting them won't make them any more inclined to help us.

I've answered this question before DUmmie, it does not matter if I'd be okay with it or not. Our soldiers have been and will always be tortured.. that's a fact. and if you want to play to win you better be willing to play just as rough as they do or else wave your fucking white flag and lay down and die and let somebody who's willing to do it lead. Democrats don't know how to lead cause they cannot get the basics down.

 

[WillowTree]

1. You would approve of waterboarding this terrorist to save your loved ones life? You are asking a question that is impossible to answer and you know it. Of course people would do whatever it took to save their loved one.....but the fact remains that the chances of getting the information sought by waterboarding are slim to none anyway, especailly if it's in fact a terrorist.

2. You would dis-approve of waterboarding this terrorist, or using any other means to get information from him, because of your fear that you would only be creating another terrorist?
I disapprove of waterboarding for ANYONE, terrorist or not because it's never been shown to actually get the result that the interregator wants. If anything it makes the terrorist MORE determined. These people don't care what you do to them, they view the U.S. as evil. Show them human compassion and perhaps you could change their view of what an American actually is. By torturing them, you feed into what they already believe us to be. therefore it's fruitless effort not to mention it makes us as guilty as them.

so what's yer plan stan?