Is waterboarding & sleep deprivation torture?

[Silence]

Bullshit, as a matter of fact OUR soldiers are not treated according to any standard other then murder if captured. Usually BY torture.

Some forms of Torture DO yield information. Sleep deprivation is simply not torture no matter how you want to twist it. Water boarding is ACCEPTABLE. Even with those practices we treat our enemies millions times better then they treat ours and that has been true in EVERY war.

Really? and where do you get this information from RGS? is this more of your made up bullshit to feed into your fantasty that the US is somehow ABOVE the law?

GMAB.

I never said anything about sleep deprivation. I don't believe that's torture in the sense that it shouldn't be used. That could yeild useful information because your senses become jagged and your guard goes down the less sleep you get.

Waterboarding IS torture by every definition of warfare. Japanese commanders were PUT TO DEATH for practicing this form of torture!! Sorry but making excuses won't change the facts. Until Bush/Cheney, it was widely accepted that waterboarding was torture and therefore unacceptable means of interrogation by the U.S.

 

[Silence]

so what's yer plan stan?

I didn't realize I needed a plan stan. I dont work for the government and I'm not in the military. I have no need to formulate a PLAN. But there are professionals who say torture does NOT work.

can you even give me ONE piece of actionable intelligence which has been gained by torture? NO you can't.

You people are comparing what would happen to a NORMAL citizen under these circumstances. they would crack like a walnut....these are TERRORISTS! they are more than willing to DIE for their cause. Do you actually believe fake drowning them does anything other than piss them off?

 

[WillowTree]

did any of you limp wristed liberals who refuse to give us a plan ever ask yourself why we resort to waterboarding? Other than what KOS tells you and you memorize what?? Why??? Is there a reason why?? Doyathink? Ever doyathink?

 

[WillowTree]

I didn't realize I needed a plan stan. I dont work for the government and I'm not in the military. I have no need to formulate a PLAN. But there are professionals who say torture does NOT work.

can you even give me ONE piece of actionable intelligence which has been gained by torture? NO you can't.

You people are comparing what would happen to a NORMAL citizen under these circumstances. they would crack like a walnut....these are TERRORISTS! they are more than willing to DIE for their cause. Do you actually believe fake drowning them does anything other than piss them off?

well if yer gonna be an expert and tell us it dosen't work then why aren't you fucking expert enough to tell us what does work? DUmmie!

 

[WillowTree]

I didn't realize I needed a plan stan. I dont work for the government and I'm not in the military. I have no need to formulate a PLAN. But there are professionals who say torture does NOT work.

can you even give me ONE piece of actionable intelligence which has been gained by torture? NO you can't.

You people are comparing what would happen to a NORMAL citizen under these circumstances. they would crack like a walnut....these are TERRORISTS! they are more than willing to DIE for their cause. Do you actually believe fake drowning them does anything other than piss them off?

fuck no I can't that's the fucking idea DUmmie, what they do and how they do it and the information they get is CLASSIFIED. Jesus fucking CHrist

 

[editec]

Is waterboarding & sleep deprivation torture?

Anyone who doubts that waterboarding is torture I invite to let me do it to you.

If you've ever drowd, you know that no experience is more terrifying, and no pain as distressing, either.

Sleep depreciation is basically torture of the brain, itself.

Taken to extremes it causes psychosis which the victim may or may not recover from.

 

[Paulie]

You get info from them the same way you'd get info from any other kind of criminal.

You offer them a deal they can't refuse and see if you can get them to flip and become a CI.

I believe your chances of getting something positive out of them are greater than if you cause them unbearable pain.

 

[WillowTree]

You get info from them the same way you'd get info from any other kind of criminal.

You offer them a deal they can't refuse and see if you can get them to flip and become a CI.

I believe your chances of getting something positive out of them are greater than if you cause them unbearable pain.

and if that dosen't work? or do you mean that as in the Godfather a deal they cannot refuse??

 

[Gem]

Paulitics Wrote:

You get info from them the same way you'd get info from any other kind of criminal.

You offer them a deal they can't refuse and see if you can get them to flip and become a CI.

I believe your chances of getting something positive out of them are greater than if you cause them unbearable pain.

And this is how interrogation begins. I had an uncle in the military who received some higher levels of interrogation resistance training because he was working in some dangerous locations overseas.

They did not train him to resist torture, not because the chances of being tortured upon capture aren't real...but rather because you can't withstand torture...eventually everyone breaks down from physical pain, fear, etc.

Instead, they trained him in different ways to avoid falling into the traps set by skilled interrogators who come in acting nice, congenial, talkative, etc. He learned to avoid revealing more than he meant to in what felt like a nice conversation, etc.

He was trained by American officers...so obviously American military techniques begin with these sorts of methods. I think this myth of the military as being just desperate and eager as all hell to pull out finger-nails before it asks a question is being perpetrated by some who want to make the military out to be evil...they aren't...they are trying to get information to save American and other lives as quickly and effectively as possible. If talking to the enemy works....they'll do it.

What bothers me about saying "no, absolutely not" to non-deadly forms of interrogation/torture such as sleep deprivation or waterboarding is that just like my uncle was trained in how to ignore the "nice" interrogation techniques...we can bet that our enemies are skilled in the same...what then?

 

[KittenKoder]

Bullshit, as a matter of fact OUR soldiers are not treated according to any standard other then murder if captured. Usually BY torture.

Some forms of Torture DO yield information. Sleep deprivation is simply not torture no matter how you want to twist it. Water boarding is ACCEPTABLE. Even with those practices we treat our enemies millions times better then they treat ours and that has been true in EVERY war.

If it's not torture then why use it? Sleep dep. results in hallucinations anyway so any information from someone who is suffering from it will of course not give you anything useful so the only purpose of it is to torture (coming from an insomniac, it IS torture). Murdering through torture is wrong, but again it never results in any information, it's done simply to be evil. Bottom line that I believe Silence has pointed out in several occasions here, torture has not offered any useful information and by experience never will. Otherwise we would have lost two wars in our past where our own soldiers were tortured for information. Terrorists are less likely to give in than our own soldiers (unless you want to claim our soldiers are mindless fanatics).

Justifying something just 'because the enemy does it' makes you just as bad as the enemy. Much of our technology produces far more accurate and reliable counter intelligence, such as sats and LGS. These tools cost billions per year but often lay dormant because we are still relying on bad intell from torture victims, most of which have little or any connection with the targets. We also have counter agents which are far better trained than any grunt or prison guard and are capable of finding information which even the most organized cell could hide. However, sadly, many of those who are for torture have also been against using these agents, therefore crippling the intell gathering to begin with.

Torture supporters are not interested in the information, you just want to punish someone.

 

[KittenKoder]

While true that everyone eventually breaks down from it, the torture itself causes many side effects that make the information worthless. When the human body is in enough pain or fear it releases chemicals, these chemicals have an effect on the mind. These effects include hallucinations, euphoria (the drunken feeling), and desperation. By combining these effects they will reflexively create an entirely new world in their minds to escape the pain, and all information they offer will be tainted by this world. The lines between the 'pain free dream world' and the real world blur the more they are pushed.

Oh yeah, you all remember I am heartless when it comes to humanity, just don't care about humans. So yes, this is not just based on scientific articles from other sources. I love to see humans tortured, and I admit, I am evil.

 

[WillowTree]

While true that everyone eventually breaks down from it, the torture itself causes many side effects that make the information worthless. When the human body is in enough pain or fear it releases chemicals, these chemicals have an effect on the mind. These effects include hallucinations, euphoria (the drunken feeling), and desperation. By combining these effects they will reflexively create an entirely new world in their minds to escape the pain, and all information they offer will be tainted by this world. The lines between the 'pain free dream world' and the real world blur the more they are pushed.

oh goody goody another expert, what would be yer plan stan?

 

[KittenKoder]

oh goody goody another expert, what would be yer plan stan?

*grins* I would let them die and ask for the tape again.

 

[Paulie]

and if that dosen't work? or do you mean that as in the Godfather a deal they cannot refuse??

Of course it isn't going to work on everyone. No one specific tactic will work universally. I just think the overall success rate of offering a deal for a flip is better than just torture.

As far as the deal, who knows. A bribe, a threat and a bribe, with some promises. I bet not every single terrorist captured is fully committed to their cause that they'd take it all the way to death. You'd be fooling yourself to think they all are.

You work their asses, yes. You break them down psychologically, you brainwash the terrorist conditioning out of their minds, and try to humanize them. If you can possibly befriend them as well, you may get more info if you offer them something like setting up their family with something lucrative like refuge in the US with money, gold, etc.

There's ways. Every human being is different, and different methods will work better with different people.

 

[KittenKoder]

Of course it isn't going to work on everyone. No one specific tactic will work universally. I just think the overall success rate of offering a deal for a flip is better than just torture.

As far as the deal, who knows. A bribe, a threat and a bribe, with some promises. I bet not every single terrorist captured is fully committed to their cause that they'd take it all the way to death. You'd be fooling yourself to think they all are.

You work their asses, yes. You break them down psychologically, you brainwash the terrorist conditioning out of their minds, and try to humanize them. If you can possibly befriend them as well, you may get more info if you offer them something like setting up their family with something lucrative like refuge in the US with money, gold, etc.

There's ways. Every human being is different, and different methods will work better with different people.

A very logical way to handle it.

An inhuman human cannot be relied on for any information that would benefit you, simple psychology. However if you are interested in getting them to help in any viable manner, make them feel as you do. The best intell ever gained was from defectors, not from prisoners. Defectors always offer great intell and they offer it freely just for a chance to live with those they agree with more. You teach a Middle Eastern native what life in the US is like, then tell them that life is theirs if they help you in saving more of your own, most will take that offer if their other choice is death.

 

[WillowTree]

Of course it isn't going to work on everyone. No one specific tactic will work universally. I just think the overall success rate of offering a deal for a flip is better than just torture.

As far as the deal, who knows. A bribe, a threat and a bribe, with some promises. I bet not every single terrorist captured is fully committed to their cause that they'd take it all the way to death. You'd be fooling yourself to think they all are.

You work their asses, yes. You break them down psychologically, you brainwash the terrorist conditioning out of their minds, and try to humanize them. If you can possibly befriend them as well, you may get more info if you offer them something like setting up their family with something lucrative like refuge in the US with money, gold, etc.

There's ways. Every human being is different, and different methods will work better with different people.

I won't disagree with any of that, but what if time is of the essence?

 

[Care4all]

good cop, bad cop techniques tend to work with police investigators....i am certain the cia has perfected what interrogations work or don't work best, that do not involve illegal methods.

To pretend as though it is torture or NOTHING as the choices of interrogations is simply dishonest or ignorant, at best...imho. Since the 60's we haven't tortured suspects, and plenty of information has come out of them...

 

[WillowTree]

well all's I got to say is if the obamalama thinks just the way youse guys do, we are in for some serious shit. I won't feel safe even for a nano second, I want the brave guys back in office. the one's who aren't too pansy assed to do what is necessary!

 

[KittenKoder]

well all's I got to say is if the obamalama thinks just the way youse guys do, we are in for some serious shit. I won't feel safe even for a nano second, I want the brave guys back in office. the one's who aren't too pansy assed to do what is necessary!

LOL ... oh yeah, being so scared shitless that you want to kill off everyone before they have the chance to kill you. Yeah, that's courage.

 

[WillowTree]

LOL ... oh yeah, being so scared shitless that you want to kill off everyone before they have the chance to kill you. Yeah, that's courage.

DUMBass, I didn't say any of that,.so sit on it and spin whydoncha?