Is Wall Street America's One Common Enemy That Unites the Left and Right?

[JoeB131]

You're pretty slow on the uptake CommieJoe. Granny's pension is bigger because of me.

Here's a picture of your intellectual mentor. You could put it in your sig.

Uh, guy, sorry, just don't see why the 1% need to get richer at the expense of the rest of us... I can't see why a guy like Romney needs to screw over AmPad workers to make himself richer. That makes him a bad person, to my mind.

I see the retail results of your greed. Every day. Good people who can't find jobs who ask me to redo their resumes. People who find themselves out of jobs at 55 and no one will touch them because they are too old.

You know what, maybe I'm getting old, but when I was growing up, the nuns taught us that greed was a sin. One of the Seven Deadly ones, in fact.

When did it become a virtue?

Class warfare.

Yes, it is. It's class warfare when the rich destroy middle class jobs to make themselves richer. Thank you for pointing that out...

 

[JoeB131]

Why are you so obsessed with what others have?? its not exactly like there is a finite amount of wealth...

Worry about yourself...

It seems the alleged "99%" (really 3%) are willing to collapse an economy to get back at those who have more than they do..

It's fucking childish..

To make matters worse its the fucking democrats in congress who empower all these 1%ers and give them bailouts in exchange for donations and support and its the democrat voting base that is crying about "wealth discrepancies."

What's childish is supporting immoral behavior because you hope to some day get in on it...

But Wall Street has bought off both parties, that was my point... which you realize as well, your anger is just misdirected.

 

[Toro]

Uh, guy, sorry, just don't see why the 1% need to get richer at the expense of the rest of us... I can't see why a guy like Romney needs to screw over AmPad workers to make himself richer. That makes him a bad person, to my mind.

I see the retail results of your greed. Every day. Good people who can't find jobs who ask me to redo their resumes. People who find themselves out of jobs at 55 and no one will touch them because they are too old.

You know what, maybe I'm getting old, but when I was growing up, the nuns taught us that greed was a sin. One of the Seven Deadly ones, in fact.

When did it become a virtue?

Class warfare.

Yes, it is. It's class warfare when the rich destroy middle class jobs to make themselves richer. Thank you for pointing that out...

Tell us again why you're a Republican?

 

[JoeB131]

He's a whiny socialist because he's whiny, not because he's a socialist. You can be a socialist without being whiny. He's just acting like a socialist who also happens to whine a lot.

It is my observation that you tend to find more people on the left who resent success, as many on the left believe that people have been exploited to attain it. You tend to see it outside of America moreso than within the country. The language JoeB is using is language I encounter from socialists outside of America. People on the right tend to venerate success. Those are broad generalizations. It doesn't mean all people on the left resent success.

He's wishing violence on others not because of his political leanings but because he's an asshole.

I'm wishing violence on people because they did evil. For an atheist, I have a pretty biblical view of morality. You do wrong, you suffer a horrificly appropriate punishment.

you don't get a bailout. You don't get to keep your huge fucking bonus. You do not pass go and you do not collect $200. You go to jail, and we send you to big boy prison with the rest of the criminals.

If the country benefits from your greed, I have no problem with it.

If everyone else suffers because of your greed, then we need to get some payback.

 

[JoeB131]

Class warfare.

Yes, it is. It's class warfare when the rich destroy middle class jobs to make themselves richer. Thank you for pointing that out...

Tell us again why you're a Republican?

I believe in limited government, strong defense and traditional (not religious) values.

I don't believe the purpose of government is to help the wealthy get richer at the expense of the rest of us.

Incidently, I also don't really support higher taxes on the wealthy. I think where they are at now is probably about appropriate.

I simply want them held accountable for their actions. Just like the rest of us are.

 

[Wiseacre]

Yes, it is. It's class warfare when the rich destroy middle class jobs to make themselves richer. Thank you for pointing that out...

Tell us again why you're a Republican?

I believe in limited government, strong defense and traditional (not religious) values.

I don't believe the purpose of government is to help the wealthy get richer at the expense of the rest of us.

Incidently, I also don't really support higher taxes on the wealthy. I think where they are at now is probably about appropriate.

I simply want them held accountable for their actions. Just like the rest of us are.

Nobody believes the purpose of gov't is to help the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. Many on the left would like to pin that on the conservatives and repubs, when the truth is that the economic policies that bring about the most growth and jobs almost always result in the rich getting richer. Why? Because it takes money to make money, if and when the economy gets better the rich people will benefit the most because they're the ones with the most money invested.

About the class warfare comment and the rich destroying jobs so they can get richer. Do you really think most capitalists cut jobs as the first option? I would venture to say in most cases that it is the last option, when the alternative is to lose money or go out of business. It costs money to hire new people and train 'em, the decision to reduce the work force is not easily made. It's not a case of getting richer, it's a case of staying profitable and keeping the business going for those who are left.

 

[JoeB131]

Nobody believes the purpose of gov't is to help the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. Many on the left would like to pin that on the conservatives and repubs, when the truth is that the economic policies that bring about the most growth and jobs almost always result in the rich getting richer. Why? Because it takes money to make money, if and when the economy gets better the rich people will benefit the most because they're the ones with the most money invested.

About the class warfare comment and the rich destroying jobs so they can get richer. Do you really think most capitalists cut jobs as the first option? I would venture to say in most cases that it is the last option, when the alternative is to lose money or go out of business. It costs money to hire new people and train 'em, the decision to reduce the work force is not easily made. It's not a case of getting richer, it's a case of staying profitable and keeping the business going for those who are left.

Horsecrap. You look at their policies, such as free trade (making Americans compete with third world sweat shops) or the Bankruptcy reform act of 2005 or a few others, they've been doing the bidding of the big corporations over the rest of us.

Take this recent free trade bill with Korea and Columbia. Obama said he wouldn't sign it unless there was retraining for people who'd lose their jobs.

Hey, if people are going to LOSE THEIR JOBS then DON'T SIGN THE DAMNED TREATY!

 

[Toro]

He's a whiny socialist because he's whiny, not because he's a socialist. You can be a socialist without being whiny. He's just acting like a socialist who also happens to whine a lot.

It is my observation that you tend to find more people on the left who resent success, as many on the left believe that people have been exploited to attain it. You tend to see it outside of America moreso than within the country. The language JoeB is using is language I encounter from socialists outside of America. People on the right tend to venerate success. Those are broad generalizations. It doesn't mean all people on the left resent success.

He's wishing violence on others not because of his political leanings but because he's an asshole.

I'm wishing violence on people because they did evil. For an atheist, I have a pretty biblical view of morality. You do wrong, you suffer a horrificly appropriate punishment.

you don't get a bailout. You don't get to keep your huge fucking bonus. You do not pass go and you do not collect $200. You go to jail, and we send you to big boy prison with the rest of the criminals.

If the country benefits from your greed, I have no problem with it.

If everyone else suffers because of your greed, then we need to get some payback.

YOU are evil. You are grossly ignorant and make broad generalizations about groups of people and wish violence upon them. You have no fucking clue about the law or finance yet feel morally justified to pass judgment on such matters.

And you sound like a loser whiny socialist.

 

[Toro]

Nobody believes the purpose of gov't is to help the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. Many on the left would like to pin that on the conservatives and repubs, when the truth is that the economic policies that bring about the most growth and jobs almost always result in the rich getting richer. Why? Because it takes money to make money, if and when the economy gets better the rich people will benefit the most because they're the ones with the most money invested.

About the class warfare comment and the rich destroying jobs so they can get richer. Do you really think most capitalists cut jobs as the first option? I would venture to say in most cases that it is the last option, when the alternative is to lose money or go out of business. It costs money to hire new people and train 'em, the decision to reduce the work force is not easily made. It's not a case of getting richer, it's a case of staying profitable and keeping the business going for those who are left.

Horsecrap. You look at their policies, such as free trade (making Americans compete with third world sweat shops) or the Bankruptcy reform act of 2005 or a few others, they've been doing the bidding of the big corporations over the rest of us.

Take this recent free trade bill with Korea and Columbia. Obama said he wouldn't sign it unless there was retraining for people who'd lose their jobs.

Hey, if people are going to LOSE THEIR JOBS then DON'T SIGN THE DAMNED TREATY!

"Corporations are evil." Sounds like a winner for the GOP. Run with that RINO.

 

[Toro]

Yes, it is. It's class warfare when the rich destroy middle class jobs to make themselves richer. Thank you for pointing that out...

Tell us again why you're a Republican?

I believe in limited government, strong defense and traditional (not religious) values.

I don't believe the purpose of government is to help the wealthy get richer at the expense of the rest of us.

Incidently, I also don't really support higher taxes on the wealthy. I think where they are at now is probably about appropriate.

I simply want them held accountable for their actions. Just like the rest of us are.

You don't believe that. You like to think you do but you don't rant about how evil corporations are then say you want government to stay out of our lives. The only way to stop what you are bitching about is to raise taxes dramatically on companies and pass laws to restrict their economic freedom. That's what leftists do, not someone who claims to believe in keeping government out of people's lives.

 

[JoeB131]

YOU are evil. You are grossly ignorant and make broad generalizations about groups of people and wish violence upon them. You have no fucking clue about the law or finance yet feel morally justified to pass judgment on such matters.

And you sound like a loser whiny socialist.

Guy, you all don't get to come back here and tell the rest of us how smart you are after you wreck the economy. You just don't get to do that. Sorry. you just don't. Take your bonus and be happy we don't ask for it back- yet.

You don't believe that. You like to think you do but you don't rant about how evil corporations are then say you want government to stay out of our lives. The only way to stop what you are bitching about is to raise taxes dramatically on companies and pass laws to restrict their economic freedom. That's what leftists do, not someone who claims to believe in keeping government out of people's lives.

I want the government to stay out of MY life. I want them to watch these assholes like a hawk and appropriately punish them when they do wrong.

When Slick the Stockbroker steals granny's pension, he goes to the same prison as the thug who beat her up for her social security check. Period.

You don't need to raise taxes on anyone to do that. Simply put, you screw up the economy, you are getting put in front of a jury of 12 guys who lost their houses and let's see if you can talk your way out of that one. You have all the freedom you want. Just don't fuck up.

It's about as free as the rest of us are.

 

[jillian]

Tell us again why you're a Republican?

I believe in limited government, strong defense and traditional (not religious) values.

I don't believe the purpose of government is to help the wealthy get richer at the expense of the rest of us.

Incidently, I also don't really support higher taxes on the wealthy. I think where they are at now is probably about appropriate.

I simply want them held accountable for their actions. Just like the rest of us are.

You don't believe that. You like to think you do but you don't rant about how evil corporations are then say you want government to stay out of our lives. The only way to stop what you are bitching about is to raise taxes dramatically on companies and pass laws to restrict their economic freedom. That's what leftists do, not someone who claims to believe in keeping government out of people's lives.

not to interfere here... just a comment. and that is, once again, it's not a "leftist" thing, it's an extremist thing on both sides. you saw how one of the loons get on here and talked about how he's "under the radar", doesn't use credit, etc... that's s also extremist.

and you don't need to drastically raise taxes on corporations. you just need to bring back the regulations that kept them being good 'citizens' and close loopholes so they pay their appropriate tax rates (which most of them aren't doing now). in general, corporations are amoral.. neither good nor evil.

men however, can be evil and use corporations to their own ends if permitted to do so.

the other thing that needs to be done is citizens united needs to be overturned, whether by court decision or by constitutional amendment.

 

[Ravi]

YOU are evil. You are grossly ignorant and make broad generalizations about groups of people and wish violence upon them. You have no fucking clue about the law or finance yet feel morally justified to pass judgment on such matters.

And you sound like a loser whiny socialist.

Guy, you all don't get to come back here and tell the rest of us how smart you are after you wreck the economy. You just don't get to do that. Sorry. you just don't. Take your bonus and be happy we don't ask for it back- yet.

You don't believe that. You like to think you do but you don't rant about how evil corporations are then say you want government to stay out of our lives. The only way to stop what you are bitching about is to raise taxes dramatically on companies and pass laws to restrict their economic freedom. That's what leftists do, not someone who claims to believe in keeping government out of people's lives.

I want the government to stay out of MY life. I want them to watch these assholes like a hawk and appropriately punish them when they do wrong.

When Slick the Stockbroker steals granny's pension, he goes to the same prison as the thug who beat her up for her social security check. Period.

You don't need to raise taxes on anyone to do that. Simply put, you screw up the economy, you are getting put in front of a jury of 12 guys who lost their houses and let's see if you can talk your way out of that one. You have all the freedom you want. Just don't fuck up.

It's about as free as the rest of us are.

I'm curious to know under what law do you plan on prosecuting? I agree with what I think you are saying, that the government's job is to protect the civil rights of the people but not the corporation. (Though you may not be saying that at all). But I am not seeing what laws were broken.

 

[Toro]

Guy, you all don't get to come back here and tell the rest of us how smart you are after you wreck the economy. You just don't get to do that. Sorry. you just don't. Take your bonus and be happy we don't ask for it back- yet.

I'm not telling you how smart I am. I'm telling you how ignorant, clueless and bigoted you are.

I want the government to stay out of MY life. I want them to watch these assholes like a hawk and appropriately punish them when they do wrong.

But you want the government to interfere in the lives of others that benefits you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be railing against evil corporations screwing the middle class by moving production offshore.

And you don't get to define what's right and wrong. Sorry.

When Slick the Stockbroker steals granny's pension, he goes to the same prison as the thug who beat her up for her social security check. Period.

I agree. Now show me what laws were broken.

You don't need to raise taxes on anyone to do that. Simply put, you screw up the economy, you are getting put in front of a jury of 12 guys who lost their houses and let's see if you can talk your way out of that one. You have all the freedom you want. Just don't fuck up.

It's about as free as the rest of us are.

Sorry. Doesn't work that way. "Screwing up the economy" isn't a crime. Losing your house isn't a crime. Your pension going down isn't a crime. Failing isn't a crime. Committing a crime is a crime. People are free to fail. That's capitalism. Anyone who calls himself a "conservative" should know this.

But I'm sure Marxists would agree with you.

 

[Toro]

I believe in limited government, strong defense and traditional (not religious) values.

I don't believe the purpose of government is to help the wealthy get richer at the expense of the rest of us.

Incidently, I also don't really support higher taxes on the wealthy. I think where they are at now is probably about appropriate.

I simply want them held accountable for their actions. Just like the rest of us are.

You don't believe that. You like to think you do but you don't rant about how evil corporations are then say you want government to stay out of our lives. The only way to stop what you are bitching about is to raise taxes dramatically on companies and pass laws to restrict their economic freedom. That's what leftists do, not someone who claims to believe in keeping government out of people's lives.

not to interfere here... just a comment. and that is, once again, it's not a "leftist" thing, it's an extremist thing on both sides. you saw how one of the loons get on here and talked about how he's "under the radar", doesn't use credit, etc... that's s also extremist.

and you don't need to drastically raise taxes on corporations. you just need to bring back the regulations that kept them being good 'citizens' and close loopholes so they pay their appropriate tax rates (which most of them aren't doing now). in general, corporations are amoral.. neither good nor evil.

men however, can be evil and use corporations to their own ends if permitted to do so.

the other thing that needs to be done is citizens united needs to be overturned, whether by court decision or by constitutional amendment.

Right. All reasonable points.

I would say this. Generally, those on the American right want more freedom and liberty from government involvement. Generally, those on the American left want more restrictions placed on corporations by governments. Now, there are always contradictions but broadly speaking, this generally holds. We can debate forever on which side is correct but I think as what we define in American political discourse, we can agree that generally, the American right wants less government involvement than the left. And I think that is generally true in economics. (Not necessarily so on social issues, mind you.) Conservatives generally want lower taxes and less regulation, liberals generally want higher taxes and more regulation, at least more than conservatives.

If you say "Corporations are screwing over the middle class and we have to fix it," the only way to fix it is through government involvement. There are generally two ways to fix this - higher taxes on imported goods and laws which restrict the behavior of corporations. Generally, conservatives do not want higher taxes and more regulations on business. Liberals are generally more sympathetic to both. We can debate all day which is right but I think this description of the American political spectrum is pretty well understood. I don't see how you can call yourself a conservative and say that corporations are screwing the country, the top 1% are bad and we have throw these people in jail, even though we don't know what laws they broke. I wouldn't say that was leftist. I would say that was extreme leftist rhetoric. There is a difference between the OWS crowd and the Tea Party. The extremists in the OWS crowd generally agree with Joe. The Tea Party does not. The Tea Party does not see the rich and corporations as evil, the extremists in the OWS do.

Dumbass Joe thinks I should go to jail and be beaten with baseball bats simply because I made profits shorting stock. What I did was not only perfectly legal, I have a fiduciary duty under the law to act in the best interests of my clients, which I did, and would do all over again. This to me is not the rhetoric of the left but of the extremist, Marxist left. The term "Marxist" gets thrown around here with a hilarious regularity, but that is the closest Marxist/Leninist sentiment I have heard yet at USMB.

 

[JoeB131]

I want the government to stay out of MY life. I want them to watch these assholes like a hawk and appropriately punish them when they do wrong.

But you want the government to interfere in the lives of others that benefits you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be railing against evil corporations screwing the middle class by moving production offshore.

It's economic treason. It should be treated as such. They electrocuted the Rosenbergs for a lot less.

You screw up the country, you go to jail. Period. And you go to big boy jail, not "Club Fed".

Corporations aren't people, despite what Mittens says. They are legal entities.

You don't need to raise taxes on anyone to do that. Simply put, you screw up the economy, you are getting put in front of a jury of 12 guys who lost their houses and let's see if you can talk your way out of that one. You have all the freedom you want. Just don't fuck up.

It's about as free as the rest of us are.

Sorry. Doesn't work that way. "Screwing up the economy" isn't a crime. Losing your house isn't a crime. Your pension going down isn't a crime. Failing isn't a crime. Committing a crime is a crime. People are free to fail. That's capitalism. Anyone who calls himself a "conservative" should know this.

But I'm sure Marxists would agree with you.

You can whine about Marxists all day, but when a plutocrat whines about "socialism", what he's really whining about is democracy.

 

[JoeB131]

Right. All reasonable points.

I would say this. Generally, those on the American right want more freedom and liberty from government involvement. Generally, those on the American left want more restrictions placed on corporations by governments. Now, there are always contradictions but broadly speaking, this generally holds. We can debate forever on which side is correct but I think as what we define in American political discourse, we can agree that generally, the American right wants less government involvement than the left. And I think that is generally true in economics. (Not necessarily so on social issues, mind you.) Conservatives generally want lower taxes and less regulation, liberals generally want higher taxes and more regulation, at least more than conservatives.

The American right sold its soul to big corporations. And really, so did the American left, for that matter. Please don't try to paint this as anything but you wanting a situation where you can steal without reprimand.

If you say "Corporations are screwing over the middle class and we have to fix it," the only way to fix it is through government involvement. There are generally two ways to fix this - higher taxes on imported goods and laws which restrict the behavior of corporations. Generally, conservatives do not want higher taxes and more regulations on business. Liberals are generally more sympathetic to both. We can debate all day which is right but I think this description of the American political spectrum is pretty well understood. I don't see how you can call yourself a conservative and say that corporations are screwing the country, the top 1% are bad and we have throw these people in jail, even though we don't know what laws they broke. I wouldn't say that was leftist. I would say that was extreme leftist rhetoric. There is a difference between the OWS crowd and the Tea Party. The extremists in the OWS crowd generally agree with Joe. The Tea Party does not. The Tea Party does not see the rich and corporations as evil, the extremists in the OWS do.

No, the TEA party sold out very quickly for porta-potties, I'll give them that. Again, I think government and Wall Street in TANDEM are the problem. TEA and OWS are only seeing half the problem.

I'm all for higher tariffs. In fact, once upon a time, the government entirely funded itself with Tariffs and things worked a lot better that way. For regulations, either they weren't followed or they weren't strong enough. My opinion is that they weren't enforced, by and large, because the people breaking them knew they could get away with it.

Dumbass Joe thinks I should go to jail and be beaten with baseball bats simply because I made profits shorting stock. What I did was not only perfectly legal, I have a fiduciary duty under the law to act in the best interests of my clients, which I did, and would do all over again. This to me is not the rhetoric of the left but of the extremist, Marxist left. The term "Marxist" gets thrown around here with a hilarious regularity, but that is the closest Marxist/Leninist sentiment I have heard yet at USMB.

I smell the stink of fear, guy.

I don't want to take anything from you earned fairly. But clearly, if people were manipulating the market and breaking the law, they should go to jail. And if the laws aren't strong enough, we need stronger laws, although my opinion is still the problem was lax enforcement.

But, hey, let's give a special prosecutor an unlimited budget and a grand jury of 12 guys who lost their homes, and lets see how fair you fly, man.

 

[Contumacious]

The American right sold its soul to big corporations. And really, so did the American left, for that matter. .

OK Vern, a few historical facts are necessary

In the late 1800 Congress USURPED the authority to regulate the economy and American businesses.

NO SUCH AUTHORITY WAS EVER CONSTITUTIONALLY CONFERRED - THE FUCKING BASTARDS MERELY CONCLUDED THAT IT WOULD BE COOL TO REGULATE BUSINESSES.

The 16th Amendment was sold to the populace as a soak the rich scam.

So in light of those events American Businesses were COMPELLED TO PENETRATE CONGRESS AND INFLUENCE LEGISLATION OTHERWISE THE CONGRESSCRITTERS WOULD HAVE STEAMROLLED OVER THEM.

Capisce?

.

 

[JoeB131]

The American right sold its soul to big corporations. And really, so did the American left, for that matter. .

OK Vern, a few historical facts are necessary

In the late 1800 Congress USURPED the authority to regulate the economy and American businesses.

NO SUCH AUTHORITY WAS EVER CONSTITUTIONALLY CONFERRED - THE FUCKING BASTARDS MERELY CONCLUDED THAT IT WOULD BE COOL TO REGULATE BUSINESSES.

The 16th Amendment was sold to the populace as a soak the rich scam.

So in light of those events American Businesses were COMPELLED TO PENETRATE CONGRESS AND INFLUENCE LEGISLATION OTHERWISE THE CONGRESSCRITTERS WOULD HAVE STEAMROLLED OVER THEM.

Capisce?

.

Riggggght. Go back and read some more Ayn Rand.

The problem is how government regulates business, and how business corrupts government.

Frankly, I want to know that when I put my money in the bank, someone isn't going to run off with it to the Caymans.

 

[Toro]

I want the government to stay out of MY life. I want them to watch these assholes like a hawk and appropriately punish them when they do wrong.

But you want the government to interfere in the lives of others that benefits you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be railing against evil corporations screwing the middle class by moving production offshore.

It's economic treason. It should be treated as such. They electrocuted the Rosenbergs for a lot less.

You screw up the country, you go to jail. Period. And you go to big boy jail, not "Club Fed".

Really? Where is the law that says offshoring sends you to prison?

You do not understand capitalism. You do not believe in capitalism. Ergo, you are not a conservative.