Is the Voluntary Military a Good?

[MikeK]

Two noteworthy advantages of the draft:

1) The draft maintains a constant presence of millions of trained soldiers in the civilian sector who can be re-activated in a matter of weeks rather than the months it takes to train raw recruits.

2) A conscript army is the Peoples' army. A volunteer army is the government's army.

Because of the lesson learned from the Vietnam debacle Bush could never have conned us into Iraq if the draft were still active. So the military events of the past ten years stand as irrefutable evidence that America will be better off with an active draft.

 

[whitehall]

Don't look now but the Marines, Navy and Air Force have always been voluntary.

 

[ESOJ]

Originally posted by The Gadfly
I've had people right here on this board (Jose comes to mind) ask me how many women I raped, how many children I killed, how many villages I burned, and so on.

HISTORY FORUM

THREAD: Gadfly or On the moral responsibility of soldiers

 

[Wiseacre]

Two noteworthy advantages of the draft:

1) The draft maintains a constant presence of millions of trained soldiers in the civilian sector who can be re-activated in a matter of weeks rather than the months it takes to train raw recruits.


You think you can re-activate millions of conscripts in a matter of weeks? After years of civilian life? You think they'll be able to go off and fight a war just like that? Out of shape, most probably married with families, guys that didn't want to be in the military in the first place? Training dulls over time you know, doesn't take long to revert to civilian life.

Let me tell you something - the all volunteer military has it's disclinary problems as it is now, if you change it to an all-conscript force you can expect those problems to multiply exponentially. And if a war did flare up to the point where we needed millions of fighting men, the casualty rate would be quite a bit higher than it would be with volunteers.

2) A conscript army is the Peoples' army. A volunteer army is the government's army.


Total nonsense, any army is the gov't army. People's army, my ass. No such thing, the people do not run an army in any country.


Because of the lesson learned from the Vietnam debacle Bush could never have conned us into Iraq if the draft were still active. So the military events of the past ten years stand as irrefutable evidence that America will be better off with an active draft.

And if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses on the ground every time they hopped somewhere. What Vietnam lessons are you referring to, Iraq wasn't a con job, and we would've gone into Iraq anyway. Irrefutable evidence, my ass. Your conclusion is unfounded on any logic at all. Everything you wrote here is 100% unaldulterated bullshit.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Originally posted by The Gadfly
I've had people right here on this board (Jose comes to mind) ask me how many women I raped, how many children I killed, how many villages I burned, and so on.

HISTORY FORUM

THREAD: Gadfly or On the moral responsibility of soldiers

Didn't last long enough to get a reply in. Just as well.

 

[MikeK]

Don't look now but the Marines, Navy and Air Force have always been voluntary.

There always has been and always will be a percentage of volunteers in a conscript army, many of whom are cadre and NCOs.

And for your information the Marines and Navy certainly did conscript during WW-II and the Marines did conscript during Korea. When the draft is active all branches of the military will conscript as needed to maintain required strength levels.

When the draft is active the general attitude is military service is the patriotic obligation of all able-bodied young men, which I believe is as it should be. But the situation has devolved into military service being a job, an occupation for which enlistment bonuses are issued and civilians are hired to perform all the unpleasant tasks such as mess duty, etc. This situation ensures two things; sons of the rich will never serve and unnecessary military adventures such as Iraq will inevitably serve the interests of the Military Industrial Complex.

The reason the draft was suspended is the protest movement which evolved during the Vietnam debacle assured the corporatist power structure that such unnecessary waste of life, limb, and treasure would never happen agein. The reason we have sons and brothers being misused in Iraq and Aftghanistan is neither the troops nor their families have any valid complaint. Because they are told, just as we Marines were told in the fifties; "We didn't ask for you. You asked for us!"

Military conscription is an essential component of a democracy like ours. Military service is a shared obligation, not a job.

 

[Wiseacre]

Don't look now but the Marines, Navy and Air Force have always been voluntary.

There always has been and always will be a percentage of volunteers in a conscript army, many of whom are cadre and NCOs.

And for your information the Marines and Navy certainly did conscript during WW-II and the Marines did conscript during Korea. When the draft is active all branches of the military will conscript as needed to maintain required strength levels.

When the draft is active the general attitude is military service is the patriotic obligation of all able-bodied young men, which I believe is as it should be. Where the hell did you get this idea? It is beyond ridiculous. But the situation has devolved into military service being a job, an occupation for which enlistment bonuses are issued and civilians are hired to perform all the unpleasant tasks such as mess duty, etc. This situation ensures two things; sons of the rich will never serve and unnecessary military adventures such as Iraq will inevitably serve the interests of the Military Industrial Complex. Sons of the rich have always found a way to avoid service in general or combat specifically, if that is their desire. Doesn't matter whether you have a draft or not.

The reason the draft was suspended is the protest movement which evolved during the Vietnam debacle assured the corporatist power structure that such unnecessary waste of life, limb, and treasure would never happen agein. Bullshit! The draft stopped after the war was over. The protest movement helped fuel public opinion to end the war, but the draft would have continued anyway until the war was over. The reason we have sons and brothers being misused How so? in Iraq and Aftghanistan is neither the troops nor their families have any valid complaint. Because they are told, just as we Marines were told in the fifties; "We didn't ask for you. You asked for us!" This is dumbshit stupid, incoherent as hell. You are trying to say the reason we went to war in both places was due to the all volunteer military? Total nonsense.

Military conscription is an essential component of a democracy like ours. Military service is a shared obligation, not a job.

Bullshit! An essential component? Geez, what an idiot! A shared obligation? In an all out war, okay. Not a job? What the hell would you call it then?

Not getting where you're coming from here. Does the left want a conscript military? All that turnover would be more expensive you know, and you have much less professional military services. Sounds like socialist/communist crap to me.

 

[regent]

Don't look now but the Marines, Navy and Air Force have always been voluntary.

I was standing in line and some guy stamped my hand navy, which could well have meant Marine Corps. I had to argue loud and long that I wanted army. Finally after two navy officers and my claiming I had a police record, lied a lot and didn't eat my veggies, I was stamped army. Then I had to avoid still another guy with the navy stamp. They were like vultures. Best decision I ever made up to the age of 18.

 

[MikeK]

I would say that there is your problem. The military fights wars; it doesn't decide which ones to fight.

If you don't think a war should be fought; don't send the military in to fight. Civilians, through the government, decide make those decisions and must accept responibity for them.

That statement contradicts the usual criticism of and contempt shown for the Vietnam protest movement which consisted of millions of civilians demanding that government put an end to such unnecessary military adventures. But all it takes is a lying bastard like George W. Bush to put us right back into it.

 

[9thIDdoc]

I would say that there is your problem. The military fights wars; it doesn't decide which ones to fight.

If you don't think a war should be fought; don't send the military in to fight. Civilians, through the government, decide make those decisions and must accept responibity for them.

That statement contradicts the usual criticism of and contempt shown for the Vietnam protest movement which consisted of millions of civilians demanding that government put an end to such unnecessary military adventures. But all it takes is a lying bastard like George W. Bush to put us right back into it.

A couple of things you might also remember about the protest movement:

The protests were almost as much anti-draft as they were anti-war and I don't recall any of their rants that didn't include draft card burning. So what's with your change of heart?

Lies and propaganda is what the movement was all about. Bush was bush league in comparison. And he didn't take us anywhere we didn't want to go.

 

[Sallow]

Everyone who served in the military knows some things. And while my perspective is from the sixties I would think these things still hold. No soldier, Marine, Air Force, Army, or Navy recruit does anything they are not told to do. GIs of any strip work for their government, if they disagreed with any policy or duty, be it KP or latrine duty, they were always free to see the Chaplain.

Military life can be a good life if you can tolerate the restrictions and the constant travel, sometimes to the remotest reaches of the earth. Family stayed home. This lead to many family problems, the saddest thing for the soldier was the 'Dear John.' Personally I never quite fit in, my time was the time of the draft and most American boys thought it a duty and not the enslavement some consider it today. Failure to salute got my ass reamed out many times. 'Sorry Sir, I didn't see you.'

But you learn in the military, we still had the GI Bill, and the service taught you to take care of yourself, to grow up, to learn during those hours of just watch. We had lots of drunks and lots of lifers, and lots of dreamers hoping for a better tomorrow, no one complained about three-two, like all things it was a mixed experience.

Now consider today when Navy Seals presume to take credit for something they were ordered to do and when they were provided the training and tools to do it? Obviously Obama deserves credit for a gutsy decision and the Seals great credit for a pretty flawless operation, but when did this mindless (political?) whining become part of the military too? It is bad enough we have the useless whining of the tea party, now the military has entered the fray. Remember RHIP, the chain of command matters if order is to be maintained. What has happened to the code of conduct.

So I ask is the voluntary military another step towards the decline of America? A step closer to a banana republic in which the banana owners control the republic. Is the all volunteer Army a good thing? I am beginning to think not. Diversity provides brakes on group think. Your thoughts.

A grunt forever and proud of it.

It's not at all "voluntary".

It's a career.

People who enlist are paid a salary and get a vast array of benefits.

Today's military is a profession.

That flies directly in the face of the Constitution.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"Today's military is a profession.

That flies directly in the face of the Constitution"

How? The Constitution doesn't allow professions?

 

[MikeK]

Everyone who served in the military knows some things. And while my perspective is from the sixties I would think these things still hold. No soldier, Marine, Air Force, Army, or Navy recruit does anything they are not told to do. GIs of any strip work for their government, if they disagreed with any policy or duty, be it KP or latrine duty, they were always free to see the Chaplain.

Military life can be a good life if you can tolerate the restrictions and the constant travel, sometimes to the remotest reaches of the earth. Family stayed home. This lead to many family problems, the saddest thing for the soldier was the 'Dear John.' Personally I never quite fit in, my time was the time of the draft and most American boys thought it a duty and not the enslavement some consider it today. Failure to salute got my ass reamed out many times. 'Sorry Sir, I didn't see you.'

But you learn in the military, we still had the GI Bill, and the service taught you to take care of yourself, to grow up, to learn during those hours of just watch. We had lots of drunks and lots of lifers, and lots of dreamers hoping for a better tomorrow, no one complained about three-two, like all things it was a mixed experience.

Now consider today when Navy Seals presume to take credit for something they were ordered to do and when they were provided the training and tools to do it? Obviously Obama deserves credit for a gutsy decision and the Seals great credit for a pretty flawless operation, but when did this mindless (political?) whining become part of the military too? It is bad enough we have the useless whining of the tea party, now the military has entered the fray. Remember RHIP, the chain of command matters if order is to be maintained. What has happened to the code of conduct.

So I ask is the voluntary military another step towards the decline of America? A step closer to a banana republic in which the banana owners control the republic. Is the all volunteer Army a good thing? I am beginning to think not. Diversity provides brakes on group think. Your thoughts.

A grunt forever and proud of it.

It's not at all "voluntary".

There are only two ways one becomes a member of the U.S. military services; induction or voluntary. And since there is no active draft what is it you have in mind?

It's a career.

People who enlist are paid a salary and get a vast array of benefits.

Today's military is a profession.

That flies directly in the face of the Constitution.

Another name for a "professional" military is mercenary. And a mercenary military is loyal to the source of its revenue, which is government. A conscripted military consists mainly of expediently inducted temporary personnel who remain primarily loyal to the People with no "professional" reliance on government.

 

[9thIDdoc]

A soldier-hell, even a Marine- knows exactly where his pay comes from and that it is not nearly what he could be making in a civilian job. If drafted he also may notice that he has been stripped of his rights as an American citizen and has had his life, health, and sanity placed in deadly danger against his will without benifit of trial or even an accusation of any wrong doing. Inspire loyalty? Surely you jest.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
"Tommy" by Kipling

 

[Warrior102]

Today's military is a profession.

That flies directly in the face of the Constitution.

Say fucking what?

 

[Wiseacre]

Today's military is a profession.

That flies directly in the face of the Constitution.

Say fucking what?

Love to know how the concept of the military as a profession flies in the face of the Constitution. All of the services teach every recruit that the military is a profession, with associated ethics that must be adhered to.

 

[Wiseacre]

MikeK: " Another name for a "professional" military is mercenary. And a mercenary military is loyal to the source of its revenue, which is government. A conscripted military consists mainly of expediently inducted temporary personnel who remain primarily loyal to the People with no "professional" reliance on government. "

Mercenaries go where the money is, but US Armed Forces do not. Not while they're in our uniform anyway. Calling our service members mercenaries who are only in it for the money is insulting, most of 'em are patriots who take pride in doing what they do. They are loyal to each other and to their oaths, which means they will follow all lawful orders. Which ultimately comes from the civilians in the gov't appointed over them, and the President. They are patriots who put everything on the line for their country, most of 'em would have anythng to do with anything close to treason. There are a few bad apples to be sure, but they are in the extreme minority.

The idea that a conscripted military who would be loyal to the people moreso than the volunteer force is ridiculous; They would be paid by the very same gov't that pays today's miltary, and there's absolutely no logic in assuming that fact has anything to do with loyalty one way or the other.

 

[The Gadfly]

Everyone who served in the military knows some things. And while my perspective is from the sixties I would think these things still hold. No soldier, Marine, Air Force, Army, or Navy recruit does anything they are not told to do. GIs of any strip work for their government, if they disagreed with any policy or duty, be it KP or latrine duty, they were always free to see the Chaplain.

Military life can be a good life if you can tolerate the restrictions and the constant travel, sometimes to the remotest reaches of the earth. Family stayed home. This lead to many family problems, the saddest thing for the soldier was the 'Dear John.' Personally I never quite fit in, my time was the time of the draft and most American boys thought it a duty and not the enslavement some consider it today. Failure to salute got my ass reamed out many times. 'Sorry Sir, I didn't see you.'

But you learn in the military, we still had the GI Bill, and the service taught you to take care of yourself, to grow up, to learn during those hours of just watch. We had lots of drunks and lots of lifers, and lots of dreamers hoping for a better tomorrow, no one complained about three-two, like all things it was a mixed experience.

Now consider today when Navy Seals presume to take credit for something they were ordered to do and when they were provided the training and tools to do it? Obviously Obama deserves credit for a gutsy decision and the Seals great credit for a pretty flawless operation, but when did this mindless (political?) whining become part of the military too? It is bad enough we have the useless whining of the tea party, now the military has entered the fray. Remember RHIP, the chain of command matters if order is to be maintained. What has happened to the code of conduct.

So I ask is the voluntary military another step towards the decline of America? A step closer to a banana republic in which the banana owners control the republic. Is the all volunteer Army a good thing? I am beginning to think not. Diversity provides brakes on group think. Your thoughts.

A grunt forever and proud of it.

It's not at all "voluntary".

There are only two ways one becomes a member of the U.S. military services; induction or voluntary. And since there is no active draft what is it you have in mind?

It's a career.

People who enlist are paid a salary and get a vast array of benefits.

Today's military is a profession.

That flies directly in the face of the Constitution.

Another name for a "professional" military is mercenary. And a mercenary military is loyal to the source of its revenue, which is government. A conscripted military consists mainly of expediently inducted temporary personnel who remain primarily loyal to the People with no "professional" reliance on government.

Where do you think we get special ops personnel? Here's a hint; they are NOT conscripts. Do you know what it takes to make a Special Forces soldier or a Navy SEAL? YEARS of training, on top of YEARS of conventional military experience, that's what! Yes, they are PROFESSIONALS, (and damn proud of it!). IN Army SF, it used to be said in the Vietnam draft era that every man was a THREE -TIME VOLUNTEER: VOLUNTEERED for the army, VOLUNTEERED for airborne duty, and VOLUNTEERED for SF. Why does that matter? Because in the kind of wars we've been fighting, we rely heavily on special operations troops to do what conventional units cannot, and you do NOT get those personnel from a draft.

Yes, I'm aware that during WW II, we had some specialized units that were partly composed of conscripted men who volunteered for them, but the training and capabilities were nowhere near those of today's special ops soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen.

The days of the kind of massed infantry and armor assaults and battles like we had in WW II and even Korea are over. So is the concept of throwing half-trained conscript infantry into modern combat. All that produces is more casualties.

 

[MikeK]

Mercenaries go where the money is, but US Armed Forces do not.

One who becomes a soldier for the express purpose of defending his country is a patriot. One who becomes a soldier in exchange for material compensation is a mercenary. The peripheral motivation and circumstances are not relevant.

(Excerpt)

Home/NewsArmy increasing enlistment bonuses
Top amount for three-year recruit is $25,000; for two years, $15,000
By Lisa Burgess
Stars and Stripes
Published: June 1, 2007
Mideast edition, Friday, June 1, 2007

ARLINGTON, Va. -- The Army has boosted the maximum bonus ceiling for three-year enlistments to $25,000 for all recruits, and raised the two-year enlistment bonus from $6,000 to $15,000 for more than 45 Army jobs, officials announced Thursday.

Previously, the maximum bonus limit for a three-year enlistment was $10,000 for most Army jobs, with a $20,000 ceiling for a few very high-demand, undermanned positions, according to Julia Bobick, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Army Recruiting Command in Fort Knox, Ky.

Army increasing enlistment bonuses - News - Stripes

(Close)

If there were a sufficient number of patriots available to satisfy the U.S. Army's need for personnel those bonuses would not be necessary. If those bonuses were discontinued it would be necessary to reinstate the draft. So much for the "patriotic" component of your assertion.

My father and his two brothers, along with many other Americans, enlisted in the Army four days after Pearl Harbor was bombed. They were patriots.

I joined the Marines in 1956, which I probably would not have done were I not 1-A (draft eligible). As I recall, my pay as an E-1 Private was around $25 a month and I didn't get any bonus, so I can say I was a half-ass patriot.

 

[MikeK]

A soldier-hell, even a Marine- knows exactly where his pay comes from and that it is not nearly what he could be making in a civilian job.

In my opinion, anyone who prefers military life to a comfortable civilian life has serious psychological issues. I put four years in the Marine Corps and I never met a single individual who could have done better as a civilian but re-enlisted instead. In fact, I had no idea what my prospects were as a civilian but the day they handed me my DD-214 was one of the happiest days of my life! And that is no exaggeration.

I did my time and paid my dues but in my opinion military life SUCKS!