Is taxation voluntary?

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Well, our taxes are extracted pursuant to laws, which can be amended by action of the government. So if you have the power to vote, you have the power to alter the tax code and in that sense, they are voluntary in a manner they would not be in a dictatorship, monarchy, etc.

I'm still not clear why you do not feel paying your taxes is a patriotic duty. Nor can I understand how we are supposed to live together without a government.

So even though I can't choose not to pay taxes without risking imprisonment, the fact that I can vote for my representatives makes them voluntary? What if the person I vote for doesn't win, or the person lies and ends up voting for a tax that they opposed during the election?

I don't think paying taxes is a patriotic duty because I don't subscribe to "patriotism," and I believe that taxation is nothing more than theft.

Here are some states you will enjoy living in, no state taxes. (wiki)

I assume you mean no state income tax. The new Governor of Ohio has said he wants to get rid of the state income tax, which I would certainly support, but we'll see if he follows through.

 

[Madeline]

If Kasich said that, he must be on drugs. Ohio faces a $8 Billion shortfall and has a balanced budget constitutional requirement.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Well, our taxes are extracted pursuant to laws, which can be amended by action of the government. So if you have the power to vote, you have the power to alter the tax code and in that sense, they are voluntary in a manner they would not be in a dictatorship, monarchy, etc.

I'm still not clear why you do not feel paying your taxes is a patriotic duty. Nor can I understand how we are supposed to live together without a government.

So even though I can't choose not to pay taxes without risking imprisonment, the fact that I can vote for my representatives makes them voluntary? What if the person I vote for doesn't win, or the person lies and ends up voting for a tax that they opposed during the election?

I don't think paying taxes is a patriotic duty because I don't subscribe to "patriotism," and I believe that taxation is nothing more than theft.

"Theft"? You cannot be serious, Kevin. Is it "theft" when the electric company turns off your lights for nonpayment? There's a cost associated with being an American.....if you dun pay your share, the result is, either that cost is not covered or your neighbor has to pick it up for you. About $1 Billion in income taxes alone are estimated to be owed but not collected annually in this country. Seems obvious to me, the taxpayers who are dodging their bills are stealing from us all.

As for voting, you can choose to do more. You can contribute to your candidate's campaign, volunteer for him, etc. He might still not be elected, but only because others just as entitled to choose as you agitated more effectively.

It seems to me there's a great deal of confusion lately as to whether and what portion of anyone's gross receipts "belong" to that individual. I won't go into a long, drawn out example, but if it cost the country $5,000 to protect, educate, support and elsewise enable you to earn $50,000, IMO the country has a claim on at least that first $5,000 of your receipts.

Do you disagree?

An electric company is not analogous to the government, though they may be enjoying a government mandated monopoly. Regardless, the electric company provides a service and rightly expects payment for that service, whereas the government simply takes your money under threat of imprisonment or death whether you use their services or not. So yes, taxation is theft. It is theft when a person or organization takes money by force that they are not entitled to.

But if my choice for candidate doesn't win, or they lie, then how is this voluntary? I either didn't elect the person, or the person went back on their campaign promise thus committing fraud. So I'm not represented either way, but yet I still have to pay the tax or risk being imprisoned.

Yes, I disagree. The state claims it does all those things, but I'd rather keep my money and have the state leave me alone personally. But again, what this thread essentially boils down to, I'm not given that choice.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If Kasich said that, he must be on drugs. Ohio faces a $8 Billion shortfall and has a balanced budget constitutional requirement.

Then Ohio needs some serious spending cuts. A good start would be to cut all Ohio politicians' pay in half, in my opinion.

 

[Madeline]

If Kasich said that, he must be on drugs. Ohio faces a $8 Billion shortfall and has a balanced budget constitutional requirement.

Then Ohio needs some serious spending cuts. A good start would be to cut all Ohio politicians' pay in half, in my opinion.

Symbolic, Kevin. But why stop there? Why not make all elected officials serve as volunteers for no pay at all?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's a "how many angels can dance on the head of pin" question. You are correct, Kevin, and loosecanon is also correct.

Here's a question for you: why does it matter? We all have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. That some of us have to be shoved around to comply doesn't alter that fact.

We have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. What if we find out that our taxes are being used for something that is not only unpatriotic but utterly despicable, do we still have a patriotic duty to pay them? I know you despise the Catholic Church because of the abuse scandal, and specifically the way they orchestrated a coverup for years.

It now appears that you have been doing your patriotic duty to pay for, and cover up, sexual slavery.

DynCorp is a government contractor which has been providing training for Afghan security and police forces for several years. Though the company is about as transparent as a lead-coated rock, most reports claim over 95% of their budget comes from U.S. taxpayers. That's the same budget that DynCorp used to pay for a party in Kunduz Province for some Afghan police trainees. The entertainment for the evening was bacha bazi boys, whose pimps were paid so the boys would sing and dance for the recruits and then be raped by them afterward. That's your tax dollars at work -- fighting terrorism and extremism in Afghnistan by trafficking little boys for sex with cops-in-training. In fact, the evidence linking DynCorp to bacha bazi was so damning, Afghan Minister of the Interior Hanif Atmar tried to quash the story. Upon hearing a journalist was investigating DynCorp and the U.S. government's funding of the sex trafficking of young boys in Afghanistan, Atmar warned any publication of the story would "endanger lives," and requested the U.S. suppress the story. Atmar admitted he had arrested eleven Afghans nationals as "facilitators" of the bacha bazi party. But he was only charging them with "purchasing a service from a child," which is illegal under Sharia law and the civil code. And in this case "services" is not used as a euphemism for sex; so far, no one is being held accountable for the young boys whose rapes were paid for by the U.S. taxpayers.
As if this story couldn't get any more outrageous, Atmar went on to say that if news of the incident got out, he was "worried about the image of foreign mentors". In other words, why should something as piddling as the humiliation, objectification, sale, and rape of some children tarnish the good name of DynCorp and all the work (read: money) they're doing in Afghanistan? After all, bacha bazi is growing in popularity in Afghanistan, especially in areas like Kunduz. Why shouldn't U.S. government contractors be able to win local favor by pimping young boys?

Wikileaks Reveals U.S. Tax Dollars Fund Child Sex Slavery in Afghanistan | End Human Trafficking | Change.org

Just where does our patriotic duty end and our right to accountability begin?

 

[dilloduck]

If Kasich said that, he must be on drugs. Ohio faces a $8 Billion shortfall and has a balanced budget constitutional requirement.

Then Ohio needs some serious spending cuts. A good start would be to cut all Ohio politicians' pay in half, in my opinion.

Symbolic, Kevin. But why stop there? Why not make all elected officials serve as volunteers for no pay at all?

Because no one can play the altruistic martyr for very long before they are as deep in need as those they are "helping". Expecting elected officials work for nothing while their own needs are vanishing is expecting too much.

 

[Madeline]

There are remedies for illegal acts by the government, Quantum Windbag. Withholding taxes cannot be one of them.

 

[shintao]

About $1 Billion in income taxes alone are estimated to be owed but not collected annually in this country. Seems obvious to me, the taxpayers who are dodging their bills are stealing from us all.

And do you think a person should be sent to debtors prison for stealing from us all? Because if he is in prison, 1.He can't pay taxes, and 2.We then start paying his room and board at some golf country club like Lompoc, for a year or more.

Surely there is a better way to have these non-payers repay society. Sweep the streets in his neighborhood & run all the garbage cans out to the curb. Charge him 10% more income tax until the debt and interest is paid.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well, our taxes are extracted pursuant to laws, which can be amended by action of the government. So if you have the power to vote, you have the power to alter the tax code and in that sense, they are voluntary in a manner they would not be in a dictatorship, monarchy, etc.

I'm still not clear why you do not feel paying your taxes is a patriotic duty. Nor can I understand how we are supposed to live together without a government.

So even though I can't choose not to pay taxes without risking imprisonment, the fact that I can vote for my representatives makes them voluntary? What if the person I vote for doesn't win, or the person lies and ends up voting for a tax that they opposed during the election?

I don't think paying taxes is a patriotic duty because I don't subscribe to "patriotism," and I believe that taxation is nothing more than theft.

Here are some states you will enjoy living in, no state taxes. (wiki)

And if you can live off interest: (wiki) "Some income, however, is exempt from income tax. This includes interest on municipal bonds."

I have lived in more than one of those states and one thing I can assert with complete confidence is that every single state in this country has taxes.

 

[shintao]

If Kasich said that, he must be on drugs. Ohio faces a $8 Billion shortfall and has a balanced budget constitutional requirement.

Then Ohio needs some serious spending cuts. A good start would be to cut all Ohio politicians' pay in half, in my opinion.

Symbolic, Kevin. But why stop there? Why not make all elected officials serve as volunteers for no pay at all?

And now you are subscribing to my AVG Party. All Volunteer Government Party (AVGP)

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There are remedies for illegal acts by the government, Quantum Windbag. Withholding taxes cannot be one of them.

Then you agree taxes are involuntary.

 

[dilloduck]

There are remedies for illegal acts by the government, Quantum Windbag. Withholding taxes cannot be one of them.

Which remedy do you prefer? Putting tham in jail or confiscating their asset ? Neither one seems to be deterring crime or rectifying the problem.

 

[Madeline]

About $1 Billion in income taxes alone are estimated to be owed but not collected annually in this country. Seems obvious to me, the taxpayers who are dodging their bills are stealing from us all.

And do you think a person should be sent to debtors prison for stealing from us all? Because if he is in prison, 1.He can't pay taxes, and 2.We then start paying his room and board at some golf country club like Lompoc, for a year or more.

Surely there is a better way to have these non-payers repay society. Sweep the streets in his neighborhood & run all the garbage cans out to the curb. Charge him 10% more income tax until the debt and interest is paid.

We have a (predominately) voluntary tax system, shintao. Not every failure to pay in full and on time rises to the level of a crime, but when one does, prison does not seem like a flawed punishment to me. If we repealed the crimes one may commit under the tax code, noncompliance and nonpayment would increase.

I know there are famous cases, such as Wesley Snipes, where a tax protestor has been sentenced to prison but in real life, most who go are those who embezzle payroll taxes.

 

[shintao]

So even though I can't choose not to pay taxes without risking imprisonment, the fact that I can vote for my representatives makes them voluntary? What if the person I vote for doesn't win, or the person lies and ends up voting for a tax that they opposed during the election?

I don't think paying taxes is a patriotic duty because I don't subscribe to "patriotism," and I believe that taxation is nothing more than theft.

Here are some states you will enjoy living in, no state taxes. (wiki)

And if you can live off interest: (wiki) "Some income, however, is exempt from income tax. This includes interest on municipal bonds."

I have lived in more than one of those states and one thing I can assert with complete confidence is that every single state in this country has taxes.

Hmm, some Texas rightys say that ain't so. It would take more than taxes to run me out of California. I don't mind paying for a better life of clean beaches, highways, parks, etc.

 

[Madeline]

There are remedies for illegal acts by the government, Quantum Windbag. Withholding taxes cannot be one of them.

Which remedy do you prefer? Putting tham in jail or confiscating their asset ? Neither one seems to be deterring crime or rectifying the problem.

You'll never achieve 100% compliance, dilloduck. My own preference would be to hire on more tax auditors and beef up the review software. I think each case must be decided on its own facts; I would oppose adding new tax crimes and there are some that mebbe should be trimmed back. But all of them require the government to prove intent to defraud....that really is the greatest assurance against malicious prosecution.

As for punishment, collecting the tax owed and interest due is not a "punishment" by itself. Most tax crimes, mebbe all, allow for ladling on substantial fines as well as prison time and I think we need both. How else would we deter noncompliance by the very wealthy?

 

[Madeline]

So even though I can't choose not to pay taxes without risking imprisonment, the fact that I can vote for my representatives makes them voluntary? What if the person I vote for doesn't win, or the person lies and ends up voting for a tax that they opposed during the election?

I don't think paying taxes is a patriotic duty because I don't subscribe to "patriotism," and I believe that taxation is nothing more than theft.

"Theft"? You cannot be serious, Kevin. Is it "theft" when the electric company turns off your lights for nonpayment? There's a cost associated with being an American.....if you dun pay your share, the result is, either that cost is not covered or your neighbor has to pick it up for you. About $1 Billion in income taxes alone are estimated to be owed but not collected annually in this country. Seems obvious to me, the taxpayers who are dodging their bills are stealing from us all.

As for voting, you can choose to do more. You can contribute to your candidate's campaign, volunteer for him, etc. He might still not be elected, but only because others just as entitled to choose as you agitated more effectively.

It seems to me there's a great deal of confusion lately as to whether and what portion of anyone's gross receipts "belong" to that individual. I won't go into a long, drawn out example, but if it cost the country $5,000 to protect, educate, support and elsewise enable you to earn $50,000, IMO the country has a claim on at least that first $5,000 of your receipts.

Do you disagree?

An electric company is not analogous to the government, though they may be enjoying a government mandated monopoly. Regardless, the electric company provides a service and rightly expects payment for that service, whereas the government simply takes your money under threat of imprisonment or death whether you use their services or not. So yes, taxation is theft. It is theft when a person or organization takes money by force that they are not entitled to.

But if my choice for candidate doesn't win, or they lie, then how is this voluntary? I either didn't elect the person, or the person went back on their campaign promise thus committing fraud. So I'm not represented either way, but yet I still have to pay the tax or risk being imprisoned.

Yes, I disagree. The state claims it does all those things, but I'd rather keep my money and have the state leave me alone personally. But again, what this thread essentially boils down to, I'm not given that choice.

The government cannot be operated as some sort of cafeteria, Kevin. I have no children under 18, so one could argue I dun "use" the local public schools, but I certainly benefit from living among an educated population. I have no criminal charges pending against me, but I certainly benefit from maintaining a Public Defender for the benefit of those that do, so that justice is delivered to my area. Etc.

All of us share complaints about the government, and all of us are free to agitate to redirect it as we think best. But none of us should be free to say "I didn't get my fair share of services so I'm not paying my taxes". Government cannot function if it has to beg or bargain individually with each of the 300 Million Americans.

 

[Madeline]

There are remedies for illegal acts by the government, Quantum Windbag. Withholding taxes cannot be one of them.

Then you agree taxes are involuntary.

I agree you can choose to view them as the product of a voting process, and therefore voluntary, or the product of a process that does not require your participation and does not always respond to your direction, and therefore involuntary.

Do you agree we have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes?

 

[shintao]

About $1 Billion in income taxes alone are estimated to be owed but not collected annually in this country. Seems obvious to me, the taxpayers who are dodging their bills are stealing from us all.

And do you think a person should be sent to debtors prison for stealing from us all? Because if he is in prison, 1.He can't pay taxes, and 2.We then start paying his room and board at some golf country club like Lompoc, for a year or more.

Surely there is a better way to have these non-payers repay society. Sweep the streets in his neighborhood & run all the garbage cans out to the curb. Charge him 10% more income tax until the debt and interest is paid.

We have a (predominately) voluntary tax system, shintao. Not every failure to pay in full and on time rises to the level of a crime, but when one does, prison does not seem like a flawed punishment to me. If we repealed the crimes one may commit under the tax code, noncompliance and nonpayment would increase.

I know there are famous cases, such as Wesley Snipes, where a tax protestor has been sentenced to prison but in real life, most who go are those who embezzle payroll taxes.

My brother was one of those guys who thought he knew the tax laws, etc. He got a year and 1/2 in Lompoc and had to repay what he owed. The feds came to my place looking for him, checked all the closets, etc., and finally found him on a job where he was arrested and hauled off.

I don't mind paying my share, or taking the loop holes when I can get them. I guess you could say I don't just voluntarily throw money at them, I make them fight for it. When the dust settles, that is what they take. My dad was a little more ambitious, and was audited every year. In Fact they still harrass my mom every year, and they have been busy on them since the 60's when a hired accountant screwed up a couple of figures. I told my dad several times to file a law suit to make them stop harrassing him, but I think secretly he enjoyed the game. IMO.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

If the answer to poor wages is "Find a better job" in the free-market world, I think the answer to this one is: If you don't want to pay taxes, you can choose to not work, or choose to move to Somalia.