Is taxation voluntary?

[Madeline]

And do you think a person should be sent to debtors prison for stealing from us all? Because if he is in prison, 1.He can't pay taxes, and 2.We then start paying his room and board at some golf country club like Lompoc, for a year or more.

Surely there is a better way to have these non-payers repay society. Sweep the streets in his neighborhood & run all the garbage cans out to the curb. Charge him 10% more income tax until the debt and interest is paid.

We have a (predominately) voluntary tax system, shintao. Not every failure to pay in full and on time rises to the level of a crime, but when one does, prison does not seem like a flawed punishment to me. If we repealed the crimes one may commit under the tax code, noncompliance and nonpayment would increase.

I know there are famous cases, such as Wesley Snipes, where a tax protestor has been sentenced to prison but in real life, most who go are those who embezzle payroll taxes.

My brother was one of those guys who thought he knew the tax laws, etc. He got a year and 1/2 in Lompoc and had to repay what he owed. The feds came to my place looking for him, checked all the closets, etc., and finally found him on a job where he was arrested and hauled off.

I don't mind paying my share, or taking the loop holes when I can get them. I guess you could say I don't just voluntarily throw money at them, I make them fight for it. When the dust settles, that is what they take. My dad was a little more ambitious, and was audited every year. In Fact they still harrass my mom every year, and they have been busy on them since the 60's when a hired accountant screwed up a couple of figures. I told my dad several times to file a law suit to make them stop harrassing him, but I think secretly he enjoyed the game. IMO.

What a terrible story, shintao. I am very sorry to hear it, especially where your Mom is concerned.

I'm not gonna say the IRS is perfect or never indulges in bad behavior....they certainly do.

 

[shintao]

Seems we are saying, hey, we should have a flat tax for America and no deductions and no tax returns. Perhaps have the employer collect it. Just elimination of the tax forms would be a great help. Have a one time fed/state tax on property, and that is all the feds get. Then let states have their consumption taxes.

 

[shintao]

If the answer to poor wages is "Find a better job" in the free-market world, I think the answer to this one is: If you don't want to pay taxes, you can choose to not work, or choose to move to Somalia.

Yes, that seems fair, and the kind of world the tax protester should strive to get himself into. He should live without using our monetary system. He shouldn't own anything made in America, and he should stand in three feet of ocean water or make a raft, but stay off American property where taxes are collected and paid for the privilege. I guess he really should leave, as we don't need his burden on society. Mexico might take him in.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

About $1 Billion in income taxes alone are estimated to be owed but not collected annually in this country. Seems obvious to me, the taxpayers who are dodging their bills are stealing from us all.

And do you think a person should be sent to debtors prison for stealing from us all? Because if he is in prison, 1.He can't pay taxes, and 2.We then start paying his room and board at some golf country club like Lompoc, for a year or more.

Surely there is a better way to have these non-payers repay society. Sweep the streets in his neighborhood & run all the garbage cans out to the curb. Charge him 10% more income tax until the debt and interest is paid.

We have a (predominately) voluntary tax system, shintao. Not every failure to pay in full and on time rises to the level of a crime, but when one does, prison does not seem like a flawed punishment to me. If we repealed the crimes one may commit under the tax code, noncompliance and nonpayment would increase.

I know there are famous cases, such as Wesley Snipes, where a tax protestor has been sentenced to prison but in real life, most who go are those who embezzle payroll taxes.

Yet they sent Wesley Snipes to prison for failing to file a return. Was that because he is rich, because he is black, or both?

 

[shintao]

We have a (predominately) voluntary tax system, shintao. Not every failure to pay in full and on time rises to the level of a crime, but when one does, prison does not seem like a flawed punishment to me. If we repealed the crimes one may commit under the tax code, noncompliance and nonpayment would increase.

I know there are famous cases, such as Wesley Snipes, where a tax protestor has been sentenced to prison but in real life, most who go are those who embezzle payroll taxes.

My brother was one of those guys who thought he knew the tax laws, etc. He got a year and 1/2 in Lompoc and had to repay what he owed. The feds came to my place looking for him, checked all the closets, etc., and finally found him on a job where he was arrested and hauled off.

I don't mind paying my share, or taking the loop holes when I can get them. I guess you could say I don't just voluntarily throw money at them, I make them fight for it. When the dust settles, that is what they take. My dad was a little more ambitious, and was audited every year. In Fact they still harrass my mom every year, and they have been busy on them since the 60's when a hired accountant screwed up a couple of figures. I told my dad several times to file a law suit to make them stop harrassing him, but I think secretly he enjoyed the game. IMO.

What a terrible story, shintao. I am very sorry to hear it, especially where your Mom is concerned.

I'm not gonna say the IRS is perfect or never indulges in bad behavior....they certainly do.

Well stuff happens. My dad moved as much of his property out of the USA, and stuffed off shore accounts. I will eventually have my turn at the tax wheel of thier estate, and I will sue for harrasment, and probably liquidate most of it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Here are some states you will enjoy living in, no state taxes. (wiki)

And if you can live off interest: (wiki) "Some income, however, is exempt from income tax. This includes interest on municipal bonds."

I have lived in more than one of those states and one thing I can assert with complete confidence is that every single state in this country has taxes.

Hmm, some Texas rightys say that ain't so. It would take more than taxes to run me out of California. I don't mind paying for a better life of clean beaches, highways, parks, etc.

Which Texas righties thing there are no taxes there?

Clean beaches?

Report: Dirty Southern California Beaches Sicken Thousands - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News - FOXNews.com

The highways are clean, but so are the ones in Texas, and they cost less. As for the parks, didn't they just try to pass a fee so they would not have to close the parks? What good is a clean park if it is closed?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There are remedies for illegal acts by the government, Quantum Windbag. Withholding taxes cannot be one of them.

Then you agree taxes are involuntary.

I agree you can choose to view them as the product of a voting process, and therefore voluntary, or the product of a process that does not require your participation and does not always respond to your direction, and therefore involuntary.

Do you agree we have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes?

Nope.

 

[Madeline]

Then you agree taxes are involuntary.

I agree you can choose to view them as the product of a voting process, and therefore voluntary, or the product of a process that does not require your participation and does not always respond to your direction, and therefore involuntary.

Do you agree we have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes?

Nope.

Really? Why not?

 

[JBeukema]

Is taxation voluntary?


Sometimes; sometimes not


When we voted to raise taxes, those who voted yea clearly consented to taxation


Believe it or not, kev, not all sex is rape

 

[Madeline]

I have lived in more than one of those states and one thing I can assert with complete confidence is that every single state in this country has taxes.

Hmm, some Texas rightys say that ain't so. It would take more than taxes to run me out of California. I don't mind paying for a better life of clean beaches, highways, parks, etc.

Which Texas righties thing there are no taxes there?

Clean beaches?

Report: Dirty Southern California Beaches Sicken Thousands - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News - FOXNews.com

The highways are clean, but so are the ones in Texas, and they cost less. As for the parks, didn't they just try to pass a fee so they would not have to close the parks? What good is a clean park if it is closed?

Poor California. It is tragic, watching that state struggle.

 

[JFK_USA]

Benjamin Franklin said it best "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

Taxes is the cost of a civilized society. Countries that don't have alot of taxes or tax revenue usually has very unstable governments. Its just a fact. To have a stable military, stable society, you must have government. You must have some sort of stability to have life be as calm as possible. Libertarians, Tea Party people obviously have no capacity of intellect to understand the importance of government.

No, taxes are not voluntary. And if you don't pay them on time, you should not be able to negotiate a lower rate because you didn't pay them. That's ridiculous.

Didn't we leave Europe over debtor's prisons?? And how did we persevere for years with no taxes?? (devils advocate question)

I think because we didn't like taxes and did our best to limit government. I agree the founding fathers wanted limited government. But as a society evolves, it needs to protect its citizens. Having laws without enforcement is completely useless. So with the increase of enforcement means increase in government.

Look everybody cries their is too much government, but without the government, we would have no opportunity for a free market. Thats right I said it, no free market. Why? Remember company towns? You know where you worked for a company and they pay you in company dollars that you spend at their own store meaning you have no money to save yourself and become rich yourself. Or we would have monopolies that could do whatever they want, and charge whatever they wanted because they knew you couldn't get it anywhere else. Government helps protects its citizens but it can't without money.

That is why I believe we went from barely any taxes to the income tax, that plus the sheer size of our country.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If Kasich said that, he must be on drugs. Ohio faces a $8 Billion shortfall and has a balanced budget constitutional requirement.

Then Ohio needs some serious spending cuts. A good start would be to cut all Ohio politicians' pay in half, in my opinion.

Symbolic, Kevin. But why stop there? Why not make all elected officials serve as volunteers for no pay at all?

Even better. They'd never make it happen though.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If the answer to poor wages is "Find a better job" in the free-market world, I think the answer to this one is: If you don't want to pay taxes, you can choose to not work, or choose to move to Somalia.

Not analogous. In this instance it is the government imposing the issue, rather than there simply being a difference in the worth of certain jobs.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Is taxation voluntary?


Sometimes; sometimes not


When we voted to raise taxes, those who voted yea clearly consented to taxation


Believe it or not, kev, not all sex is rape

You keep saying that, and it still doesn't apply.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Benjamin Franklin said it best "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

Taxes is the cost of a civilized society. Countries that don't have alot of taxes or tax revenue usually has very unstable governments. Its just a fact. To have a stable military, stable society, you must have government. You must have some sort of stability to have life be as calm as possible. Libertarians, Tea Party people obviously have no capacity of intellect to understand the importance of government.

No, taxes are not voluntary. And if you don't pay them on time, you should not be able to negotiate a lower rate because you didn't pay them. That's ridiculous.

Didn't we leave Europe over debtor's prisons?? And how did we persevere for years with no taxes?? (devils advocate question)

We never went without taxes. Prior to income taxes the States paid for the Federal Government and guess how THEY got the money to do so?

 

[Mr Natural]

If you don't want to pay taxes, quit your job, sell your possessions, and go live off the land.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If you don't want to pay taxes, quit your job, sell your possessions, and go live off the land.

So I should sell all of my property and quit my job, and then go live off somebody else's property? How does that even make sense?

 

[boedicca]

No. Taxation is not voluntary. When the consequence of not doing something is having one's income garnished, property seized, or self imprisoned, the "activity" is not voluntary.

And to preempt the inevitable: what about traffic laws blah blah blah.

Traffic laws for public safety are to keep one from killing others whilst operating a vehicle. One can perform one's job without paying taxes and not harm anyone.

 

[boedicca]

If you don't want to pay taxes, quit your job, sell your possessions, and go live off the land.

So I should sell all of my property and quit my job, and then go live off somebody else's property? How does that even make sense?

Well, if one assumes that there are no property rights, you should just be able to take whatever you think you NEED.

 

[NYcarbineer]

No, taxes are not voluntary. The simple fact that most Americans pay them proves that.