Is Israel's 'Democracy' slipping away

[docmauser1]

Here it is put very simply by one of the key intellectuals studying Democracy today.

Actually, it looked like "skinny dipping" into democracy under influence, which johnkeane and his fellow kites do when high.

 

[Shogun]

duh... Of COURSE it's democracy if, by definition, you mean favoring a particular ethnic voting block as the only ones who *should* count. Threads like this are hilarious given the outright birthrate racism inherent in zionist israel.

 

[alexa]

Here it is put very simply by one of the key intellectuals studying Democracy today.

Actually, it looked like "skinny dipping" into democracy under influence, which johnkeane and his fellow kites do when high.

Most of the time I ignore your responses but this one is such an good example of the disingenuousness of them that I decided to respond.

You wish to equate the views of one of the world's top scholars on democracy to that of a person on drugs. You are showing yourself up. I suggest you look at his bibliography and then present what qualifications and arguments you have to dismiss him.

Biography | John Keane

 

[Monnagonna]

Doesn't Israel reserve 15% of the knesset seats for arabs? You call that democracy?

 

[docmauser1]

duh... Of COURSE it's democracy if, by definition, you mean favoring a particular ethnic voting block as the only ones who *should* count. Threads like this are hilarious given the outright birthrate racism inherent in zionist israel.

Oh, more incentive for arabs to give it up in disgust and paddle off and away to the democratic multicultural paradise of arabistania, of course.

 

[docmauser1]

Here it is put very simply by one of the key intellectuals studying Democracy today.

Actually, it looked like "skinny dipping" into democracy under influence, which johnkeane and his fellow kites do when high.

You wish to equate the views of one of the world's top scholars on democracy to that of a person on drugs.

Sure, his contention about post-babylonian preservation and saving of democracy in islam does look like a hilarious LSD-induced drivel.

 

[alexa]

Actually, it looked like "skinny dipping" into democracy under influence, which johnkeane and his fellow kites do when high.

You wish to equate the views of one of the world's top scholars on democracy to that of a person on drugs.

Sure, his contention about post-babylonian preservation and saving of democracy in islam does look like a hilarious LSD-induced drivel.

No but what you just wrote did.

The US talks about democracy but does not accept the results of a democratic election. What does that say about the US's views on democracy? You either believe in democracy or you do not. You may not. That is your right but if you do, you do not change your mind because the vote went a different way than you wanted. That action is not a democratic action.


With reference to this thread.

In representative democracy because we vote only once every four or five years we have other systems built in without which we would not be democratic.

Such systems include the right to protest, special interest groups and an independent judiciary which has equal law for all citizens. It is within these areas that serious issues are being seen within Israel's fragile democracy.

 

[docmauser1]

Sure, his contention about post-babylonian preservation and saving of democracy in islam does look like a hilarious LSD-induced drivel.

No but what you just wrote did.

Of course, - it's his contention, after all. Talk about hallucinogenics!

The US talks about democracy but does not accept the results of a democratic election. What does that say about the US's views on democracy?

It's a johnkeanean "monitory democracy", of course, so, it's allright.

You either believe in democracy or you do not. You may not. That is your right but if you do, you do not change your mind because the vote went a different way than you wanted. That action is not a democratic action.

But, it is! And it's quite johnkeanean too - voters are brainless.

With reference to this thread.

Cool.

In representative democracy because we vote only once every four or five years we have other systems built in without which we would not be democratic. Such systems include the right to protest, special interest groups and an independent judiciary which has equal law for all citizens. It is within these areas that serious issues are being seen within Israel's fragile democracy.

So, we confirm, yet again, voters are brainless. Quite johnkeanean, indeed.

 

[Jessica Blume]

ISn'tRAEL is the source of all our problems.

 

[CitizenPained]

Sure, his contention about post-babylonian preservation and saving of democracy in islam does look like a hilarious LSD-induced drivel.

No but what you just wrote did.

The US talks about democracy but does not accept the results of a democratic election. What does that say about the US's views on democracy? You either believe in democracy or you do not. You may not. That is your right but if you do, you do not change your mind because the vote went a different way than you wanted. That action is not a democratic action.


With reference to this thread.

In representative democracy because we vote only once every four or five years we have other systems built in without which we would not be democratic.

Such systems include the right to protest, special interest groups and an independent judiciary which has equal law for all citizens. It is within these areas that serious issues are being seen within Israel's fragile democracy.

So are you saying that Hamas-ruled Gaza is democratic and Israel is not? Because if that is your position, then surely Israel is a democracy, for its citizens -Arab, Jew, whatever - all vote in free and fair elections. Even anti-Israel Arab leaders have a party. You cannot have it both ways. If Gaza is a democratic territory, Israel's 60+ year old government surely has the same title.

Your "expert" on democracy is a political scientist. He opines. He's not the end-all-be-all.

The British form of democracy would not bode well here in the U.S. Nor would Israel's. We'd abhor such a system like party lists and parliamentary elections and coalition governments where fringe minorities have too much legislative power. Or a Queen? HAH! But do we say that European parliamentary systems (upon which Israel's is based) are not democracies? Of course not.

Israel is very much ruled by the people...look at the tent protests, the level of dissent, the freedom of speech and religion, recognition of gay marriages (!), etc. Oh wait, YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ISRAELI POLITICS!

If this boycott law (mind you, the US has them as well) really does start to harm individuals and organizations, come back to me. Israel is a democracy. Like any country, it has its issues. It won't stand. Don't demonize it because you don't like its foreign policy. You're no better than alJazeera's op-ed Israel-haters.

...I fully support a law banning Hamas-backing NGOs, though.

A faulty law does not make the entire nation 'undemocratic' or 'fragile'. The Patriot Act didn't make us 'undemocratic' overnight. For fuck's sake, we re-elected George Bush and that was our own fault.

Again...democracy is alive and well in Israel...if you lived in Tel Aviv you'd see that.

Edit: Dare I say that in Israel, religious people are more free to move about than in France, where one cannot practice religion freely? Did you think that France lost its democracy when Chirac declared an emergency with the 2005 riots and there was a curfew? I believe your own beloved Scotland had some issues with 'democracy' just a few years back in your elections!

 

[alexa]

So are you saying that Hamas-ruled Gaza is democratic and Israel is not?

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that Gaza had a democratic election which by all accounts was free and fair and when Hamas won the vote democratically the US, Israel and everyone else says - well we won't speak to you then. The world did not respect the democratic vote. Had they a different picture would have emerged. Exactly what we do not know.

Then you further have the US interfering causing bloodshed

Because if that is your position, then surely Israel is a democracy, for its citizens -Arab, Jew, whatever - all vote in free and fair elections. Even anti-Israel Arab leaders have a party. You cannot have it both ways. If Gaza is a democratic territory, Israel's 60+ year old government surely has the same title.

Well, that is an interesting one. I have said Israel is a fragile democracy. Do we not always hear that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east and yet you feel that if it comes up to the standard of Gaza that means it is a true democracy?

Israel's democracy is fragile. It is something which you should be concerned about. See Uri Avnery's columm from this week - from 'bout half way down

The Charge of the New York Times - Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc

Your "expert" on democracy is a political scientist. He opines. He's not the end-all-be-all.

Yes, he is an expert in political theory and democracy and citizenship. Of course he does not have the only word. No one has the only word. No one is god. He did however explain that democracy is considerably more than just voting once every 4 or 5 years.

The British form of democracy would not bode well here in the U.S. Nor would Israel's. We'd abhor such a system like party lists and parliamentary elections and coalition governments where fringe minorities have too much legislative power. Or a Queen? HAH! But do we say that European parliamentary systems (upon which Israel's is based) are not democracies? Of course not.

That isn't the issue citizenpained and I personally doubt how democratic most democracies are. However the issue with Israel at the moment is voting to remove rights which are deemed everywhere to be democratic as for instance the right to boycott settlement goods. As you will see from Avnery's article the intended laws on left wing NGO's have been stopped, thanks he believes to the negative criticism from the New York Times.

Again a democracy is not just about it's Parliament. It is also about equal rights for all and certain privileges like freedom of speech and the right to protest. The major problem democracies have is getting people equal opportunity. If the equal rights and the human rights are not there in the beginning then there are problems.

I wonder how tent city will develop.

Israel is very much ruled by the people...look at the tent protests, the level of dissent, the freedom of speech and religion, recognition of gay marriages (!), etc. Oh wait, YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ISRAELI POLITICS!

But no right to boycott the settlements. There are also infinite differences between the rights of Jews and Muslims - re - jobs, education, housing, immigration and so on.

If this boycott law (mind you, the US has them as well) really does start to harm individuals and organizations, come back to me. Israel is a democracy. Like any country, it has its issues. It won't stand. Don't demonize it because you don't like its foreign policy. You're no better than alJazeera's op-ed Israel-haters.

...I fully support a law banning Hamas-backing NGOs, though.

tell me a little about these Hamas backing NGO's

A faulty law does not make the entire nation 'undemocratic' or 'fragile'.

I think it was Uri Avnery who first used that term so maybe you had better pick that up with him.

The Patriot Act didn't make us 'undemocratic' overnight. For fuck's sake, we re-elected George Bush and that was our own fault.

Again...democracy is alive and well in Israel...if you lived in Tel Aviv you'd see that.

I believe it is extremely fragile and needs keeping an eye on.

Edit: Dare I say that in Israel, religious people are more free to move about than in France,

Indeed and they move about freely to illegally settle other people's land.

 

[docmauser1]

I am saying that Gaza had a democratic election which by all accounts was free and fair and when Hamas won the vote democratically the US, Israel and everyone else says - well we won't speak to you then. The world did not respect the democratic vote. Had they a different picture would have emerged. Exactly what we do not know.

Indeed, a total lack of mentoring and coaching, as per John Keane, coming from the international community assigned gazastan democracy development supervisory committee voids the elections altogether.

 

[CitizenPained]

So are you saying that Hamas-ruled Gaza is democratic and Israel is not?

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that Gaza had a democratic election which by all accounts was free and fair and when Hamas won the vote democratically the US, Israel and everyone else says - well we won't speak to you then. The world did not respect the democratic vote. Had they a different picture would have emerged. Exactly what we do not know.

Then you further have the US interfering causing bloodshed

Hey, moron, Hamas won't negotiate with Israel, either. But they will kidnap and torture their soldiers and fire rockets into Sderot.

Because if that is your position, then surely Israel is a democracy, for its citizens -Arab, Jew, whatever - all vote in free and fair elections. Even anti-Israel Arab leaders have a party. You cannot have it both ways. If Gaza is a democratic territory, Israel's 60+ year old government surely has the same title.

Well, that is an interesting one. I have said Israel is a fragile democracy. Do we not always hear that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east and yet you feel that if it comes up to the standard of Gaza that means it is a true democracy?

Israel's democracy is fragile. It is something which you should be concerned about. See Uri Avnery's columm from this week - from 'bout half way down

Will you stop putting forth Avnery's stuff like it's fact? You know I don't agree with him on hardly anything. Can you not think for yourself or can you only link leftist shit?

Yes, he is an expert in political theory and democracy and citizenship. Of course he does not have the only word. No one has the only word. No one is god. He did however explain that democracy is considerably more than just voting once every 4 or 5 years.

Anyone with a PhD can be an expert in political theory. Again, Israel has free speech, religion, etc. Look at the protests that the anti-Israeli Pals are allowed to do...it's a democracy...maybe you don't like it, but don't be silly.

Thanks again for pointing out that Hamas is not a democratic body.

That isn't the issue citizenpained and I personally doubt how democratic most democracies are. However the issue with Israel at the moment is voting to remove rights which are deemed everywhere to be democratic as for instance the right to boycott settlement goods.

Every country has boycott laws. You can boycott stuff in Israel. You just may get sued for slander.

As you will see from Avnery's article the intended laws on left wing NGO's have been stopped, thanks he believes to the negative criticism from the New York Times.

Israel does NOT take directive from the New York fucking Times! wtf!

But no right to boycott the settlements. There are also infinite differences between the rights of Jews and Muslims - re - jobs, education, housing, immigration and so on.

Immigration is the only right in which they differ, and every country has a right to set its own immigration laws. Since Israel is a JEWISH STATE, it makes sense that Jews can immigrate easier than non-Jews. Duh.

I can't go to many Islamic countries because I'm Jewish. Are they undemocratic?

It's not Israel's fault if Muslims want to have 10 kids live in ghettos. Birth control is free in Israel. They still get health care and welfare checks, though. It is expensive to live in Israel. Jews suffer, too...hello, tent city?!

Indeed and they move about freely to illegally settle other people's land.

International law is a joke. But if you want to apply the concepts of international law, then Israel won the territories after it was attacked.

 

[alexa]

Hey, moron, Hamas won't negotiate with Israel, either. But they will kidnap and torture their soldiers and fire rockets into Sderot.

irrelevent rubbish

Will you stop putting forth Avnery's stuff like it's fact? You know I don't agree with him on hardly anything. Can you not think for yourself or can you only link leftist shit?

I do happen to like him. He is an intelligent man who knows what he is talking about far more than you yourself. Of course you do not agree with him. If you did you would agree with me. You don't like anyone quoting anyone. You just like to throw around insults because you know your position has no ground.

Anyone with a PhD can be an expert in political theory.

irrelevent

Again, Israel has free speech, religion, etc. Look at the protests that the anti-Israeli Pals are allowed to do...it's a democracy...maybe you don't like it, but don't be silly.

I see they sometimes get shot for peaceful demonstrations.

Thanks again for pointing out that Hamas is not a democratic body.

never said that. I said the democratic vote of the Gaza people was not recognised by the world in particular the US and Israel.

Every country has boycott laws. You can boycott stuff in Israel. You just may get sued for slander.

You can boycott stuff in Israel but you cannot boycotte settlements. You are being dishonest.

Israel does NOT take directive from the New York fucking Times! wtf!

does it not?

Immigration is the only right in which they differ, and every country has a right to set its own immigration laws.

You should know more on this than me and yet you don't. Land, jobs, education.

Since Israel is a JEWISH STATE, it makes sense that Jews can immigrate easier than non-Jews. Duh.

and whether you like it or not on that basis alone Israel is not a democracy for all it's citizens. You may have justification for that but it remains, Israel is not an equal democracy for all her citizens.

I can't go to many Islamic countries because I'm Jewish. Are they undemocratic?

not that I know of though I believe they are wanting to be. What makes you think you are so special. When I went travelling in the 70's I had to ask Israel not to stamp my passport so that I could visit Arab nations should I choose.

It's not Israel's fault if Muslims want to have 10 kids live in ghettos. Birth control is free in Israel. They still get health care and welfare checks, though. It is expensive to live in Israel. Jews suffer, too...hello, tent city?!

sick woman

Look you make about 60 posts a day and you are just coming out with garbage.

You believe that democracy is only voting once every 4 or 5 years. That is what you said and where I came in. You know nothing about democracy. Nothing at all. Now I am not going to answer any more garbage you put in. It bores me. I have better things to do. You know you are being an Ostrich and so do I.

 

[docmauser1]

I said the democratic vote of the Gaza people was not recognised by the world in particular the US and Israel.

Evidently, because the democracy in gazabad does not conform to the johnkeanean "monitory democracy". Gazastanians have mucho soul-searching to do.

 

[CitizenPained]

According to Alexa, everything I say is 'rubbish' and 'irrelevant'. Gaza is a democracy, Israel is not, it is OK for Iran to bar me from entering the country on the basis of my ethnicity whilst it is not okay for Israel to restrict immigration (not bad; restrict) from Palestinians that they are warring with.

 

[CitizenPained]

Also, Alexa please explain how the State bars Muslims from having certain jobs or going to school. That makes no sense.

As far as land goes, the State's informal relationship with the JNF (which is privately funded) is unfortunate. The JNF sells land to Jews (like the Saudi-backed fund that sells land only to Muslims in Jerusalem...hint hint) and has projects in Muslim communities, mostly for parks and schools and such. The JNF should end its relationship with the State and do its own thing. The State can plant its own trees.

I think you forget that most of Israel is poor. Too much of its GDP goes to security.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Also, Alexa please explain how the State bars Muslims from having certain jobs or going to school. That makes no sense.

As far as land goes, the State's informal relationship with the JNF (which is privately funded) is unfortunate. The JNF sells land to Jews (like the Saudi-backed fund that sells land only to Muslims in Jerusalem...hint hint) and has projects in Muslim communities, mostly for parks and schools and such. The JNF should end its relationship with the State and do its own thing. The State can plant its own trees.

I think you forget that most of Israel is poor. Too much of its GDP goes to security.

In fact, the JNF, which technically controls only about 16% of the land, and the Israeli Land Administration controls about 77% if the land. Only about 7% of the land in Israel is privately owned and the various Christian churches own most of that.

Until very recently neither the JNF nor the ILA sold land to anyone; rather they provided long term leases. While it is true that JNF's Charter forbids it from leasing land to non Jews, an arrangement was worked out between JNF and ILA by which if a non Jew wanted to lease a particular piece of land controlled by JNF, ILA would trade an equivalent piece of land to JNF and then lease the original land to the non Jew, most often an Arab.

JNF has come a long way from the old days. In fact, it now has an Arab sitting on its board of directors.

 

[CitizenPained]

Yes, what most people fail to realize that when it comes to ownership - not long-term leases - Arabs in Israel own more than Jews do.

 

[alexa]

According to Alexa, everything I say is 'rubbish' and 'irrelevant'. Gaza is a democracy, Israel is not, it is OK for Iran to bar me from entering the country on the basis of my ethnicity whilst it is not okay for Israel to restrict immigration (not bad; restrict) from Palestinians that they are warring with.

I suggest you go and ask your mother for some lessons in honesty. Clearly such trashy lies are indeed rubbish.