Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[georgephillip]

Nope, next question.

"A further impetus for confining the 'apartheid label' to a comparison with South Africa is that the commonalities and similarities between the liberation struggles of South Africa and Palestine are quite stark.

"Both cases involved a process of settler-colonialism involving the forced displacement of the indigenous population from most of their ancestral lands and concentrating them in townships and reservations, dividing the colonized community into different groups with differing rights, strict mobility restrictions that suffocated the colonized, and the use of brutal military force to repress any actual or potential resistance against the racist colonial regime."

Is Israel an Apartheid State?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All smoke and bullshit aside, I didn't see that as a category of citizen.

All smoke and bullshit aside, I was referring to the natives of the land.

(COMMENT)

All technical BS and made-up Palestinian jargon aside, I think the criteria is pretty straight forward.

What is a "native of the land?" What sovereignty was the land? Where were they born and when?

My thought is to ask why don't they meet the criteria?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All smoke and bullshit aside, I didn't see that as a category of citizen.

All smoke and bullshit aside, I was referring to the natives of the land.

(COMMENT)

All technical BS and made-up Palestinian jargon aside, I think the criteria is pretty straight forward.

What is a "native of the land?" What sovereignty was the land? Where were they born and when?

My thought is to ask why don't they meet the criteria?

Most Respectfully,
R

Just asking why the natives of the land are not allowed to live there.

 

[georgephillip]

reabhloideach, et al,

Well, I agree that a Jewish is not a racial category. So, right off the bat, its not a matter of "apartheid" under the international criminal code. As you can see, "apartheid" is defined as crimes committed "by one racial group over any other racial group;" a major element of the offense.

georgephillip; et al,

Interesting?


(FIRST QUESTION)

What races are involved? (one racial group over any other racial group)

Most Respectfully,
R

i think jews are a religious group and not an ethnic/racial group. am i wrong in assuming that you do the same?

(COMMENT)

No, you are not wrong.

But more importantly, being Israeli is not a racial category either; it is a nationality. And, you can be Israeli and Palestinian simultaneously; however you define a Palestinian.

Snip.

Of the LINK cited, I did not see one "apartheid" issue mentioned.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...Israel makes a unique distinction between "nationality" and "citizenship" that few, if any, other countries make.

As I understand it all Israelis qualify as "citizens" of Israel; however, the state belongs solely to the "Jewish nation" which encompasses not only the 5.6 million Jews living in Israel but also more than 7 million living in the diaspora.

This has come to the attention of a retired linguistics professor in Israel:

"The head of the campaign for Israeli nationality, Uzzi Ornan, a retired linguistics professor, said: 'It is absurd that Israel, which recognizes dozens of different nationalities, refuses to recognize the one nationality it is supposed to represent...'

"Mr. Ornan, 86, said that denying a common Israeli nationality was the linchpin of state-sanctioned discrimination against the Arab population.

"There are even two laws -- the Law of Return for Jews and the Citizenship Law for Arabs -- that determine how you belong to the state," he said. 'What kind of democracy divides its citizens into two kinds?'"

Jonathan Cook, "'Israeli Nation' vs. 'Jewish State'"

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Just rephrasing the question doesn't give me a clue. (I'm slow!)

P F Tinmore, et al,

All smoke and bullshit aside, I didn't see that as a category of citizen.

All smoke and bullshit aside, I was referring to the natives of the land.

(COMMENT)

All technical BS and made-up Palestinian jargon aside, I think the criteria is pretty straight forward.

What is a "native of the land?" What sovereignty was the land? Where were they born and when?

My thought is to ask why don't they meet the criteria?

Most Respectfully,
R

Just asking why the natives of the land are not allowed to live there.

(COMMENT)

• What does that mean: "natives of the land"
• Where is there: "not allowed to live there"

If you are using the Covenant/Charter definition for Palestine and that phony claim that all of Israel is in Palestine, then you are barking up the wrong tree. That just won't fly. Just to be a Palestinian under that made-up rule is not sufficient to enter the sovereign territory of Israel. Just the same as they just can't wonder and live in other Arab countries.

But if you were in Israel when Israel declared independence, then you might be in one of the categories.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Bloodrock44]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All smoke and bullshit aside, I didn't see that as a category of citizen.

All smoke and bullshit aside, I was referring to the natives of the land.

(COMMENT)

All technical BS and made-up Palestinian jargon aside, I think the criteria is pretty straight forward.

What is a "native of the land?" What sovereignty was the land? Where were they born and when?

My thought is to ask why don't they meet the criteria?

Most Respectfully,
R

Just asking why the natives of the land are not allowed to live there.

When did the squatters declare a state? When did they define borders or form a government?

 

[georgephillip]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All smoke and bullshit aside, I didn't see that as a category of citizen.


(COMMENT)

All technical BS and made-up Palestinian jargon aside, I think the criteria is pretty straight forward.

What is a "native of the land?" What sovereignty was the land? Where were they born and when?

My thought is to ask why don't they meet the criteria?

Most Respectfully,
R

Just asking why the natives of the land are not allowed to live there.

When did the squatters declare a state? When did they define borders or form a government?

"The Israeli Declaration of Independence (Hebrew: הכרזת העצמאות*, Hakhrazat HaAtzma'ut or Hebrew: מגילת העצמאות* Megilat HaAtzma'ut), was made on 14 May 1948 (5 Iyar 5708), the day before the British Mandate was due to expire. David Ben-Gurion, the Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization[2][3] and the chairman of the Jewish Agency for Palestine,[4] declared the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel."

Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Just rephrasing the question doesn't give me a clue. (I'm slow!)

P F Tinmore, et al,

All smoke and bullshit aside, I didn't see that as a category of citizen.


(COMMENT)

All technical BS and made-up Palestinian jargon aside, I think the criteria is pretty straight forward.

What is a "native of the land?" What sovereignty was the land? Where were they born and when?

My thought is to ask why don't they meet the criteria?

Most Respectfully,
R

Just asking why the natives of the land are not allowed to live there.

(COMMENT)

• What does that mean: "natives of the land"
• Where is there: "not allowed to live there"

If you are using the Covenant/Charter definition for Palestine and that phony claim that all of Israel is in Palestine, then you are barking up the wrong tree. That just won't fly. Just to be a Palestinian under that made-up rule is not sufficient to enter the sovereign territory of Israel. Just the same as they just can't wonder and live in other Arab countries.

But if you were in Israel when Israel declared independence, then you might be in one of the categories.

Most Respectfully,
R

What do you mean, made up rule?

They were born there.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All smoke and bullshit aside, I didn't see that as a category of citizen.


(COMMENT)

All technical BS and made-up Palestinian jargon aside, I think the criteria is pretty straight forward.

What is a "native of the land?" What sovereignty was the land? Where were they born and when?

My thought is to ask why don't they meet the criteria?

Most Respectfully,
R

Just asking why the natives of the land are not allowed to live there.

When did the squatters declare a state? When did they define borders or form a government?

May 14, 1948.

They never declared borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Just asking why the natives of the land are not allowed to live there.

When did the squatters declare a state? When did they define borders or form a government?

"The Israeli Declaration of Independence (Hebrew: הכרזת העצמאות*, Hakhrazat HaAtzma'ut or Hebrew: מגילת העצמאות* Megilat HaAtzma'ut), was made on 14 May 1948 (5 Iyar 5708), the day before the British Mandate was due to expire. David Ben-Gurion, the Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization[2][3] and the chairman of the Jewish Agency for Palestine,[4] declared the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel."

Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course the World Zionist Organization and the Jewish Agency are both foreign organizations. They declared their state inside Palestine.

 

[georgephillip]

i think jews are a religious group and not an ethnic/racial group. am i wrong in assuming that you do the same?

I think that Hitler made a strategic decision to classify Jews as a race and not a religion since, had he chosen the latter, half the Jews in Germany would have converted to Christianity.

It seems to me that distinction between race and religion has been used by Jews and non-Jews to cover many crimes during the last hundred years including the Right of Return in Palestine.

i think i am going to have to go with religion with a small ethnic component. perhaps at one time it was an ethnicity but you really can't convert to an ethnicity.

Race, religion, culture, ethnicity, citizenship and nationality all obscure the one fundamental principle of Israel: Jewish privilege. Race relations in the US during the 1950s were completely transparent in the sense that whites and Blacks stood out as two distinct racial groups. That same distinction doesn't hold for Jew and Arab, yet there are striking similarities between how Blacks were treated here and how Arabs are treated in Israel and its occupied territories today.

From Jewish Currents:

"Most American Jews are proud of Jewish participation in the U.S. civil rights movement, but fail to realize that Israel is also in need of a civil rights revolution.

"Arab citizens of Israel live under conditions roughly similar to those of African-Americans living in the North during the early 1950s.

"Despite possessing the right to vote, they suffer grave inequalities in employment, housing, education, social services and representation in government, business and the media.

"Israel is a highly segregated society in which 'separate but unequal' is the norm. Racist attitudes against Arabs are pervasive. A common insult among Israeli Jews is 'Don't be an Arab.'"

 

[Hossfly]

No. Israel is full of God-worshiping Jews who just want to be left alone. South Africa is a hellhole full of godless blacks who breed like rats.

"Jewish atheism refers to atheism as practiced by people who are ethnically, and to some extent culturally, Jewish. Because Jewishness encompasses ethnic as well as religious components, the term "Jewish atheism" does not necessarily imply a contradiction.

"Based on Jewish law's emphasis on matrilineal descent, even religiously conservative Orthodox Jewish authorities would accept an atheist born to a Jewish mother as fully Jewish.[1]

"One recent study found that half of all American Jews have doubts about the existence of God, compared to 10–15% of other American religious groups."
Jewish atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW, are you prejudiced against black rats?

Why, Georgie Boy, we know that you are an atheist (even though you were probably taken to the AME church when you were a boy) so it is quite amusing for you to be speaking about atheists. Meanwhile, do you have a problem when white rats inhabit your abode? Of course, Georgie Boy has no problem with his Arab friends being prejudiced against Blacks and that the President of Sudan wants to get rid of all black skinned people living in his country along with all Christians, even if it means killing them to accomplish this. By the way, Georgie Boy, your friends all over the Muslim world detest atheists and that is why many who have dropped out of Islam keep it quiet that they don't believe anymore.

 

[georgephillip]

No. Israel is full of God-worshiping Jews who just want to be left alone. South Africa is a hellhole full of godless blacks who breed like rats.

"Jewish atheism refers to atheism as practiced by people who are ethnically, and to some extent culturally, Jewish. Because Jewishness encompasses ethnic as well as religious components, the term "Jewish atheism" does not necessarily imply a contradiction.

"Based on Jewish law's emphasis on matrilineal descent, even religiously conservative Orthodox Jewish authorities would accept an atheist born to a Jewish mother as fully Jewish.[1]

"One recent study found that half of all American Jews have doubts about the existence of God, compared to 10–15% of other American religious groups."
Jewish atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW, are you prejudiced against black rats?

Why, Georgie Boy, we know that you are an atheist (even though you were probably taken to the AME church when you were a boy) so it is quite amusing for you to be speaking about atheists. Meanwhile, do you have a problem when white rats inhabit your abode? Of course, Georgie Boy has no problem with his Arab friends being prejudiced against Blacks and that the President of Sudan wants to get rid of all black skinned people living in his country along with all Christians, even if it means killing them to accomplish this. By the way, Georgie Boy, your friends all over the Muslim world detest atheists and that is why many who have dropped out of Islam keep it quiet that they don't believe anymore.

How many Muslims do you talk to on a regular basis

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

While the various wars altered the border outcomes, the original borders were declared on mid-night 14/15 May.

Just asking why the natives of the land are not allowed to live there.

When did the squatters declare a state? When did they define borders or form a government?

May 14, 1948.

They never declared borders.

(COMMENT)

As declared:

STATE OF ISRAEL WILL BE READY COOPERATE WITH ORGANS AND REPRESENTATIVES OF UNITED NATIONS IN IMPLEMENTATION OF RESOLUTION OF ASSEMBLY OF NOVEMBER 29 1947 AND WILL TAKE STEPS TO BRING ABOUT ECONOMIC UNION OVER WHOLE OF PALESTINE.

SOURCE: S/747 16 May 1948

The north-eastern sector of the Jewish State (Eastern) Galilee) is bounded on the north and west by the Lebanese frontier and on the east by the frontiers of Syria and Transjordan. It includes the whole of the Hula Basin, Lake Tiberias, the whole of the Beisan sub-district, the boundary line being extended to the crest of the Gilboa mountains and the Wadi Malih. From there the Jewish State extends north-west, following the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.

The Jewish Section of the coastal plain extends from a point between Minat et Qila and Nabi Yunis in the Gaza sub-district and includes the towns of Haifa and Tel-Aviv, leaving Jaffa as an enclave of the Arab State. The eastern frontier of the Jewish State follows the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.

The Beersheba area comprises the whole of the Beersheba sub-district, including the Negeb and the eastern part of the Gaza sub-district, but excluding the town of Beersheba and those areas described in respect of the Arab State. It includes also a strip of land along the Dead Sea stretching from the Beersheba-Hebron sub-district boundary line to Ein Geddi, as described in respect of the Arab State.

---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------​

The boundary lines described in part II are indicated in Annex A. The base map used in marking and describing this boundary is "Palestine 1:250000" published by the Survey of Palestine, 1946.

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,

While the various wars altered the border outcomes, the original borders were declared on mid-night 14/15 May.

When did the squatters declare a state? When did they define borders or form a government?

May 14, 1948.

They never declared borders.

(COMMENT)

As declared:

STATE OF ISRAEL WILL BE READY COOPERATE WITH ORGANS AND REPRESENTATIVES OF UNITED NATIONS IN IMPLEMENTATION OF RESOLUTION OF ASSEMBLY OF NOVEMBER 29 1947 AND WILL TAKE STEPS TO BRING ABOUT ECONOMIC UNION OVER WHOLE OF PALESTINE.

SOURCE: S/747 16 May 1948

The north-eastern sector of the Jewish State (Eastern) Galilee) is bounded on the north and west by the Lebanese frontier and on the east by the frontiers of Syria and Transjordan. It includes the whole of the Hula Basin, Lake Tiberias, the whole of the Beisan sub-district, the boundary line being extended to the crest of the Gilboa mountains and the Wadi Malih. From there the Jewish State extends north-west, following the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.

The Jewish Section of the coastal plain extends from a point between Minat et Qila and Nabi Yunis in the Gaza sub-district and includes the towns of Haifa and Tel-Aviv, leaving Jaffa as an enclave of the Arab State. The eastern frontier of the Jewish State follows the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.

The Beersheba area comprises the whole of the Beersheba sub-district, including the Negeb and the eastern part of the Gaza sub-district, but excluding the town of Beersheba and those areas described in respect of the Arab State. It includes also a strip of land along the Dead Sea stretching from the Beersheba-Hebron sub-district boundary line to Ein Geddi, as described in respect of the Arab State.

---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------​

The boundary lines described in part II are indicated in Annex A. The base map used in marking and describing this boundary is "Palestine 1:250000" published by the Survey of Palestine, 1946.

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course resolution 181 never happened so that is irrelevant.

And besides, Israel blew past those borders in its quest to take all of Palestine before the foreigners declared themselves to be a state inside Palestine.

Those proposed borders never became borders.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore. et al,

Again, this is a HAMAS position, and not held in fact.

P F Tinmore; et al,

While the various wars altered the border outcomes, the original borders were declared on mid-night 14/15 May.

May 14, 1948.

They never declared borders.

(COMMENT)

As declared:

The north-eastern sector of the Jewish State (Eastern) Galilee) is bounded on the north and west by the Lebanese frontier and on the east by the frontiers of Syria and Transjordan. It includes the whole of the Hula Basin, Lake Tiberias, the whole of the Beisan sub-district, the boundary line being extended to the crest of the Gilboa mountains and the Wadi Malih. From there the Jewish State extends north-west, following the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.

The Jewish Section of the coastal plain extends from a point between Minat et Qila and Nabi Yunis in the Gaza sub-district and includes the towns of Haifa and Tel-Aviv, leaving Jaffa as an enclave of the Arab State. The eastern frontier of the Jewish State follows the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.

The Beersheba area comprises the whole of the Beersheba sub-district, including the Negeb and the eastern part of the Gaza sub-district, but excluding the town of Beersheba and those areas described in respect of the Arab State. It includes also a strip of land along the Dead Sea stretching from the Beersheba-Hebron sub-district boundary line to Ein Geddi, as described in respect of the Arab State.

---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------​

The boundary lines described in part II are indicated in Annex A. The base map used in marking and describing this boundary is "Palestine 1:250000" published by the Survey of Palestine, 1946.

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course resolution 181 never happened so that is irrelevant.

And besides, Israel blew past those borders in its quest to take all of Palestine before the foreigners declared themselves to be a state inside Palestine.

Those proposed borders never became borders.

(COMMENT)

It is hard to say who speaks for the Palestinian.

The Palestinian side adheres to international legitimacy and respects General Assembly resolution 181 (II), as well as Security Council resolution 242 (1967), the implementation of which is the aim of the current Middle East peace process.

(Signed) Nasser AL-KIDWA
Ambassador
Permanent Observer of
Palestine to the United Nations​

SOURCE: A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999

There is no voice for the Palestinian and not documented position other than the above. Are you suggesting that the Palestinians have flip-flopped on the issue again?

Are you guessing at the Palestinian Position? Or, do you have something you base it on.

The UN Position is quite clear. It uses GA Resolution 181(II) as a basis for Resolution 273 (III) - Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations; with declarations and explanations.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MHunterB]

To the 'question' in the OP: NO. Not the same - and it's a ridiculous 'comparison'.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore. et al,

Again, this is a HAMAS position, and not held in fact.

P F Tinmore; et al,

While the various wars altered the border outcomes, the original borders were declared on mid-night 14/15 May.


(COMMENT)

As declared:



Most Respectfully,
R

Of course resolution 181 never happened so that is irrelevant.

And besides, Israel blew past those borders in its quest to take all of Palestine before the foreigners declared themselves to be a state inside Palestine.

Those proposed borders never became borders.

(COMMENT)

It is hard to say who speaks for the Palestinian.

The Palestinian side adheres to international legitimacy and respects General Assembly resolution 181 (II), as well as Security Council resolution 242 (1967), the implementation of which is the aim of the current Middle East peace process.

(Signed) Nasser AL-KIDWA
Ambassador
Permanent Observer of
Palestine to the United Nations​

SOURCE: A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999

There is no voice for the Palestinian and not documented position other than the above. Are you suggesting that the Palestinians have flip-flopped on the issue again?

Are you guessing at the Palestinian Position? Or, do you have something you base it on.

The UN Position is quite clear. It uses GA Resolution 181(II) as a basis for Resolution 273 (III) - Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations; with declarations and explanations.

Most Respectfully,
R

It is hard to say who speaks for the Palestinian.

Indeed, the PA was created by foreigners and imposed on Palestine.

Do they really speak for the Palestinians?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Here are the basic interrogatives.

P F Tinmore. et al,

Again, this is a HAMAS position, and not held in fact.

Of course resolution 181 never happened so that is irrelevant.

And besides, Israel blew past those borders in its quest to take all of Palestine before the foreigners declared themselves to be a state inside Palestine.

Those proposed borders never became borders.

(COMMENT)

It is hard to say who speaks for the Palestinian.



There is no voice for the Palestinian and not documented position other than the above. Are you suggesting that the Palestinians have flip-flopped on the issue again?

Are you guessing at the Palestinian Position? Or, do you have something you base it on.

The UN Position is quite clear. It uses GA Resolution 181(II) as a basis for Resolution 273 (III) - Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations; with declarations and explanations.

Most Respectfully,
R

It is hard to say who speaks for the Palestinian.

Indeed, the PA was created by foreigners and imposed on Palestine.

Do they really speak for the Palestinians?

(QUESTION)

• Who speaks for the Palestinians?
  • Gaza
  • West Bank
  • Other Refugees
• Who does the Permanent UN Observer for Palestine Represent?
• What validity does State of Palestine Have?
  • Borders?
  • Government?
    • How does it communicate?
    • Does it have a Constitution of some foundation for the Government?
    • Who is the leader (Head of State) for Palestine?
    • Where is the seat of Government?
  • Self-Sustaining?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[georgephillip]

"While several political and historical comparisons between Israel and South Africa have been published, there has been no systematic legal analysis of Israeli apartheid as it affects all sectors of Palestinian society: Palestinians in the occupied territory, Palestinian citizens of Israel, and Palestinian refugees.

"This article is a work in progress which aims to provide a legal framework within which the applicability of the crime of apartheid to Israel can be discussed.

"It argues that the policies and practices of the Israeli government amount to apartheid against Palestinian nationals - wherever they are and whatever their legal status. Hence, Palestinian citizens of Israel, refugees, and those in the OPT are victims, albeit in different ways, of Israel's regime of apartheid.

While this article is limited to the applicability of the crime of apartheid, it does not negate nor contradict the fact that Israel's regime against the Palestinian people is also one of belligerent occupation and colonialism..."

Is Israel an Apartheid State?

The Zionist colonization of Palestine has always depended upon an "Iron Wall of bayonets" to discourage the indigenous Palestinian from effectively resisting the theft of their natural resources. The British supplied the initial bayonets for Zionist expansion and the US continues His Majesty's policies of colonial conquest today.