Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by georgephillip, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. georgephillip
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    georgephillip VIP Member Supporting Member

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    "The question is not 'Is Israel the same as South Africa?'
    It is 'do Israel's actions meet the international definition of what apartheid is?'

    The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity 'committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.'"

    A couple of other relevant questions include did Israel sign the 2002 Rome Statute, if not;why not, and does it even matter?

    Is Israel an Apartheid State?
  2. RoccoR
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    RoccoR VIP Member

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    georgephillip; et al,

    Interesting?

    (FIRST QUESTION)

    What races are involved? (one racial group over any other racial group)

    Most Respectfully,
    R
  3. P F Tinmore
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    P F Tinmore VIP Member

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    Picayune.
  4. sealadaigh
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    i think jews are a religious group and not an ethnic/racial group. am i wrong in assuming that you do the same?
  5. georgephillip
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    georgephillip VIP Member Supporting Member

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    The Jewish race over any and all other racial groups living between the River and the sea.
  6. High_Gravity
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    High_Gravity Belligerent Drunk Supporting Member

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    Nope, next question.
  7. georgephillip
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    georgephillip VIP Member Supporting Member

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    I think that Hitler made a strategic decision to classify Jews as a race and not a religion since, had he chosen the latter, half the Jews in Germany would have converted to Christianity.

    It seems to me that distinction between race and religion has been used by Jews and non-Jews to cover many crimes during the last hundred years including the Right of Return in Palestine.
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  8. RoccoR
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    reabhloideach, et al,

    Well, I agree that a Jewish is not a racial category. So, right off the bat, its not a matter of "apartheid" under the international criminal code. As you can see, "apartheid" is defined as crimes committed "by one racial group over any other racial group;" a major element of the offense.

    (COMMENT)

    No, you are not wrong.

    But more importantly, being Israeli is not a racial category either; it is a nationality. And, you can be Israeli and Palestinian simultaneously; however you define a Palestinian.

    But it is also important to understand that when speaking of "apartheid" --- you are speaking of treatment difference with a given country. That is to say, the crime of "apartheid" doesn't apply to the "Occupied Territories" because it is not "sovereign Israeli territory." The crime of "apartheid" is "committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." So, in order to determine if there is the crime of "apartheid," you have to examine if an "Israeli" of one racial class is being treated differently than an "Israeli" of another racial class within the same regime.

    Of the LINK cited, I did not see one "apartheid" issue mentioned.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
  9. RoccoR
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    georgephillip, et al,

    I'm not sure I completely understand.

    (COMMENT)

    I think you better ask for legal advise on the matter.

    Anyone living in Israel at the time it declared independence in 1948 and at the end of the War of Independence, is an Israeli Citizen. (I think) They need not apply for citizenship, they are citizens. They just need to get their Oleh's certificate. I'm not an expert on their law, but it might be worth looking into if you fall in that category.

    But remember, the entire idea behind the establishment of the Jewish State, was to find a protective landscape for those that would be oppresses simply because they were Jewish.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  10. georgephillip
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    georgephillip VIP Member Supporting Member

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    "Jewish atheism refers to atheism as practiced by people who are ethnically, and to some extent culturally, Jewish. Because Jewishness encompasses ethnic as well as religious components, the term "Jewish atheism" does not necessarily imply a contradiction.

    "Based on Jewish law's emphasis on matrilineal descent, even religiously conservative Orthodox Jewish authorities would accept an atheist born to a Jewish mother as fully Jewish.[1]

    "One recent study found that half of all American Jews have doubts about the existence of God, compared to 10–15% of other American religious groups."
    Jewish atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    BTW, are you prejudiced against black rats?
  11. sealadaigh
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    so then, what i understand, and i could be wrong, but you are not opposed and, indeed, are in favour of religious groups being able to carve out national homelands and soveriegn states in the places of their choosing, depriving the indigenous people, natives, and current inhabitants of their properties, rights, and thwarting their national aspirations?

    if this is not the case, then i see no way around concluding that you advocate special treatment of a people based upon their religious choice?

    and i also imagine that is the feelings of most zionists.
  12. sealadaigh
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    i think i am going to have to go with religion with a small ethnic component. perhaps at one time it was an ethnicity but you really can't convert to an ethnicity.
  13. P F Tinmore
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    Is "Arab" a race?
  14. RoccoR
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    P F Tinmore, et al,

    I don't like these kinds of questions.

    (COMMENT)

    No, Arabs are Semitic (including Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Maltese, and Amharic) language speaking people, that speak Arabic as a primary language.

    It has no relationship to race.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  15. P F Tinmore
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    Then what is the distinguishing characteristic that separates them from Israelis?
  16. RoccoR
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    P F Tinmore, et al,

    Every country has immigration laws.

    (COMMENT)

    Criteria for immigration or citizenship.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
  17. P F Tinmore
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    Explain immigration to your homeland.
  18. RoccoR
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    P F Tinmore, et al,

    It depends if it is your homeland.

    (COMMENT) PART ONE: ACQUISITION OF NATIONALITY, NATIONALITY LAW, 5712-1952

    Nationality by Return.

    (a) Every 'oleh** under the Law of Return, 5710-1950(1), shall become an Israel national.
    (b) Israel nationality by return is acquired-
    • (1) by a person who came as an 'oleh into, or was born in, the country before the establishment of the State - with effect from the day of the establishment of the State;
    • (2) by a person having come to Israel as an 'oleh after the establishment of the State - with effect from the day of his 'aliyah**;
    • (3) by a person born in Israel after the establishment of the State - with effect from the day of his birth;
    • (4) by a person who has received an 'oleh's certificate under section 3 of the Law of Return, 5710-1950 - with effect from the day of the issue of the certificate.
    (c) This section does not apply-
    • (1) to a person having ceased to be an inhabitant of Israel before the coming into force of this Law;
    • (2) to a person of full age who, immediately before the day of his 'aliyah or the day of his 'oleh's certificate is a foreign national and who, on or before such day, declares that he does not desire to become an Israel national;
    • (3) to a minor whose parents have made a declaration under paragraph (2) and included him therein.

    Nationality by Residence in Israel.

    (a) A person who, immediately before the establishment of the State, was a Palestinian citizen and who does not become a Israel national under section 2, shall become an Israel national with effect from the day of the establishment of the State if -
    • (1) he was registered on the 4th Adar, 5712 (1st March 1952) as an inhabitant under the Registration of Inhabitants Ordinance, 5709-1949(2); and
    • (2) he is an inhabitant of Israel on the day of the coming into force of this Law; and
    • (3) he was in Israel, or in an area which became Israel territory after the establishment of the State, from the day of the establishment of the State to the day of the coming into force of this Law, or entered Israel legally during that period.
    (b) A person born after the establishment of the State who is an inhabitant of Israel on the day of the coming into force of this Law, and whose father or mother becomes an Israel national under subsection (a), shall become an Israel national with effect from the day of his birth.​

    For more information see: Acquisition of Israeli Nationality - Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs

    Disclaimer:

    You need to ask a specialist in the law or the Israeli Consulate.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
  19. Surfer
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    I don't like any kind of rats. I especially despise people who won't behave or contribute to this awesome country. Criminals and most liberals make me sick. Muslimes, criminal aliens and white trash are repulsive. I like good, decent, Christian and Jewish people who behave and don't have too many kids they can not afford.
  20. P F Tinmore
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    All smoke and bullshit aside, I was referring to the natives of the land.

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