Is Drilling equivalent to Welfare?

Er..I work as a case worker. There are instances where people get SSI and disability. They work it out so the total amount comes up to an established total between the two of them.

I can't prove it because the screens I get this information from are secure and client information is secure, but I'm sure you could call a social security office and get specifics.

I only asked you to prove it because whenever you guys don't like my facts, you ask me to prove it. Just fucking with you Allie. LOL.

But your last post about no one should decide what someone else makes is rediculous. It is a problem and that's why we have governments. Did you not see my post from earlier?

Thomas Jefferson explicitly suggested that if individuals became so rich that their wealth could influence or challenge government, then their wealth should be decreased upon their death. He wrote, "If the overgrown wealth of an individual be deemed dangerous to the State, the best corrective is the law of equal inheritance to all in equal degree..."

You want to argue with Thomas Jefferson?
 
I only asked you to prove it because whenever you guys don't like my facts, you ask me to prove it. Just fucking with you Allie. LOL.

But your last post about no one should decide what someone else makes is rediculous. It is a problem and that's why we have governments. Did you not see my post from earlier?

Thomas Jefferson explicitly suggested that if individuals became so rich that their wealth could influence or challenge government, then their wealth should be decreased upon their death. He wrote, "If the overgrown wealth of an individual be deemed dangerous to the State, the best corrective is the law of equal inheritance to all in equal degree..."

You want to argue with Thomas Jefferson?


No, it is not why we have a government. The government's sole purpose is to protect our freedoms, and to assure that no one faction attains all the power.

Tyranny is what you have when you have a select few determining what the masses should or should not receive. And the overgrown wealth of a CEO is not dangerous to the state. What is dangerous to the state is putting a limit on how successful or how much money any individual can make.

Monopolies are a little different thing....if you have an individual who has complete control over something that is necessary to the every day lives of people, that's a little different. And when that happens, the government has and will step in to break up the monopoly. And I think that's what Jefferson was referring to. Individuals should not be more powerful than our own government and military. And that's not happening. But to say that Thomas Jefferson thought that wealth should be evenly distributed amongst everyone, regardless of who is earning what, is just idiotic.
 
No, it is not why we have a government. The government's sole purpose is to protect our freedoms, and to assure that no one faction attains all the power.

Tyranny is what you have when you have a select few determining what the masses should or should not receive. And the overgrown wealth of a CEO is not dangerous to the state. What is dangerous to the state is putting a limit on how successful or how much money any individual can make.

Monopolies are a little different thing....if you have an individual who has complete control over something that is necessary to the every day lives of people, that's a little different. And when that happens, the government has and will step in to break up the monopoly. And I think that's what Jefferson was referring to. Individuals should not be more powerful than our own government and military. And that's not happening. But to say that Thomas Jefferson thought that wealth should be evenly distributed amongst everyone, regardless of who is earning what, is just idiotic.

Even the founding fathers argued about what the government should and shouldn't be, so we might have to agree to disagree on what government should and shouldn't do.

And I don't think Jefferson meant someones wealth should be distributed among everyone when they die. I think he meant, in order to avoid a family or person becoming too rich, we should tax their fortune in half when they die. That way no one gets too powerful.

But, I tried to find out exactly what he meant and I'm a little confused too.


Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Joseph Milligan 1816

Jefferson is explicit in the fact that an extra taxation on inheritance violate the law of nature. The property should be divided among the inheritors equally. Maybe we need clarification as to “all in equal degree” he was talking about. He says it before to Madison. They talked funny back then, huh?

“The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree is a political measure, and a practicable one.”

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Madison 1785

"an enormous proportion of property vested in a few individuals is dangerous to the rights, and destructive of the common happiness of mankind, and, therefore, every free state hath a right by its laws to discourage the possession of such property."


HELP EVERYONE ELSE!!!
 
Sorry, it is a fact you are either dumb or rich, and I'll prove it.

You may be racist, have a hard on about gays guns or abortion, but the fact is, the GOP doesn't have your economic interests in mind when they make their policies. They're sending jobs overseas so the Corporations can make more money.

Oh, I forgot, you have a socialist job, case worker. So outsourcing doesn't affect you. Ok, but the GOP weakened the dollar and now your $40K a year job doesn't get you as far as it used to.

But having the job that you do, proves that most middle class GOP'ers are not being affected by Bushanomics, so they have the luxury of not realizing what is going on. But at least you are paying more for food and gas like the rest of us. But as long as you keep your job, you have the luxury of remaining ignorant of the facts. I work with people like you. They are making "ok" money, so they can overlook their home went down in value, the dollar isn't what it used to be, things cost more, their 401k's took a dump, etc. They are young so they just "hope" things will get better in time.

Anyways, they use wedge issues to trick you and to put it bluntly, if you are voting because of abortion or gays and not with your economic interests in mind, you are a fool.

Sure when the economy was good (under clinton), you could afford such to be cocky, but the economy is falling apart and for some reason, you refuse to see that it was the GOP that did it.

Let's put it this way. If you were going to retire at 60, make it 70 now. If you will ever retire. Do you get a pension as a case worker? Do they pay for your gas when you drive around? Probably, ignorant bastard.

1) You have your people mixed up, ignoramus
2) You are speaking more left-wing slogans with no meat behind them, as usual
3) The bubble economy of false growth was corrected. If we had slow stead growth under Clinton based on something more than dot bomb speculation, venture capitalist funny work, etc, I would agree that the economy under Clinton was 'good' or some similar adjective. It was, in fact, horrible because of it's lack of stable footing and inherent instability. This was, in fact, not all on the shoulders of Clinton. As no full economic trend is all on the shoulders of any President.
4) You need to actually get a clue on economics and the economics of business. You are showing yourself completely ignorant.
 
Well I'm sorry, but when I lose my job because they outsource it to India, I won't be able to tap into my 401K. If I do, they will take 50%.

And meanwhile, CEO's are making record profits. So maybe my 401K would do better if our CEO's weren't gouging the company.

My brother is a VP of a Corporation too. Whenever I argue that it isn't fair he says, "rule number one is to feed the generals first". Then he says, "do you know what rule number two is? Never forget rule number 2".

There is no question that they are greedy. That's why I get mad when people suggest it is us middle class Americans that are the greedy ones.

He doesn't deserve that much money, but we deserve a decent wage. We work our asses off so he can be rich?

Yes, he/she deserves to be rich because he made it up to the CEO level. Good for them. But at what point is too rich.

And you have to admit, if college educated Americans are asked to make $30k a year so the company can make a better profit, then screw stocks and 401K's because we will need our salaries to pay our bills. And we will just go further into debt. And no, the people in debt and losing their homes are not at fault. A small percentage might but it is happening to too many of us for it to be all of their faults. Someone did this to us. GOP and Corporate America!!!

Isn't that what free markets are all about? Why pay an American $50K when they can pay India or Chinese workers $10K a year. So where does that leave us? So screw free markets. There is no such thing. If it weren't for governments, government regulations and labor laws, we wouldn't have a strong middle class.

Bush deregulated business so they could be "free".

If it hasn't happened to you yet, good for you. But it is happening to a lot of people.

You know who else is cocky? My cop friend. He makes a decent wage, has a pension coming and his father in law is rich. So he has the luxury of blaming the democrats for high gas prices and the bad economy. He even knows he is full of shit because when I fact him into a corner, he just says, "i'm just not going to vote this time". And I say, "good, if I can't get you to vote for Obama, the next best thing is if you just stay home".

Can you tell i'm passionate about this?

A guy sent me an email today from the RNC suggesting that the economy got worse ever since the Dems took over Congress. My head almost exploded. It is such propoganda and false information. My other buddy snoped it and it is all bullshit!!!

If you are not rich, start waking up. You have 4 months to snap out of it. Hurry before it is your job that goes away.

It's already too late with the housing market. But the dems might stop companies from going overseas. They might re-regulate things that were regulated in the first place for a reason. Yada. Have a nice weekend.

We are all Americans and we all want the same thing. I just want it for 90% of America, not 50%. 10% will always be lazy. But don't suggest that 50% of America should be poor. That's not America!!!


My point was that "they" are publicly owned cooperations. Do you even know what that means. When they make profits millions of Americans who own stock, or have 401k's or mutual funds also make money. When they lose money so do the people who own stocks.

Sure the people at the top make too much. I will not argue with that, but you can not argue with the fact that Millions and Millions of Americans also have a vested interest in them doing well.

Oh and I have made money in the market over the last few years. Because as soon as it was clear we were going to Invade Iraq. I moved most of my money into energy, gold and Defense stocks. Even in a poor market a smart investor can make money. You just need to be able to read the signs of what is coming. When we invaded Iraq you did not have to be a rocket scientist to see Energy and Defense stocks would sky rocket.

Also I saw the housing crisis coming long ago, as I was working as a contractor and saw that to many people were buying well beyond their means counting on interest rates staying at the low rates they were.

I have even made out from the housing crisis, as I just bought a house that was 180k 4 years ago, for only 55k, and I used almost all cash to do it so the Crisis will not hurt me. Evenentually the market will rebound as it always does and I will make a nice profit on my home.

Finally when it was clear the housing market here in Michigan was going to collapse I got out of construction and took a job in OVT trucking, which is a good place to be as the Nation is in the mist of a shortage of truck drivers which is only going to get worse because so many of them are baby boomers looking to retire and so many owner operators are going under with the price of diesel. I even was wise enough to work for a company driving their truck and not try to be an owner operator. So they can pay for the gas and I can just get paid to drive. It pays about 50k a year and has very good benefits and the promise of making more as I do it longer.

The only draw back is I spend a lot of time away from my wife and kids, but at least I get to go out and see the country and not have to pay for the gas :)
 
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Anyone who wants to work in this country can get a job. And anyone who wants to make more money can find a way to do it. It may require a move or return to school, but it can be done.
 
1) You have your people mixed up, ignoramus
2) You are speaking more left-wing slogans with no meat behind them, as usual
3) The bubble economy of false growth was corrected. If we had slow stead growth under Clinton based on something more than dot bomb speculation, venture capitalist funny work, etc, I would agree that the economy under Clinton was 'good' or some similar adjective. It was, in fact, horrible because of it's lack of stable footing and inherent instability. This was, in fact, not all on the shoulders of Clinton. As no full economic trend is all on the shoulders of any President.
4) You need to actually get a clue on economics and the economics of business. You are showing yourself completely ignorant.

I am always amazed at this sort of post from the wackos on the right, it doesn't matter what it is when it happened what happened or for that matter if it happened, it is always something that happened when Clinton controlled every aspect of the working universe. Damn that is old, and oh, so stupid.



A vote for John McCain is a vote against the fundamental principle of America, the right of the individual to lead their life privately without the government interfering.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Dispatches-Americas/dp/0307339378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215176375&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Deer Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War: Joe Bageant: Books[/ame]
 
Anyone who wants to work in this country can get a job. And anyone who wants to make more money can find a way to do it. It may require a move or return to school, but it can be done.

here's a few facts you can't deny.

1 yes anyone can, but everone can't. Example: remember the great depression? Are you suggesting people were just lazy back then or it was EVERYONES fault?

2 chances are if you lose your job right now, you will probably make less at your next job. Its easy to tell everyone unemplyed to go back to school. its a lot harder to do. depending on how old you are, the $40k school wil cost you might not be the right move.

3 Even after you retrain yourself, you will find it is harder to find a job in that field too because almost every industry is struggling.

4 What would you go back to school for? What would be your challenges?

America is no longer the land of oportunity, unless you are a poor foreigner or rich one. the opportunities are in china and india. lol.

foreigners used to come here because of their countries unemployment rates. now americans are moving out. sad.
 
My point was that "they" are publicly owned cooperations. Do you even know what that means. When they make profits millions of Americans who own stock, or have 401k's or mutual funds also make money. When they lose money so do the people who own stocks.

Sure the people at the top make too much. I will not argue with that, but you can not argue with the fact that Millions and Millions of Americans also have a vested interest in them doing well.

Oh and I have made money in the market over the last few years. Because as soon as it was clear we were going to Invade Iraq. I moved most of my money into energy, gold and Defense stocks. Even in a poor market a smart investor can make money. You just need to be able to read the signs of what is coming. When we invaded Iraq you did not have to be a rocket scientist to see Energy and Defense stocks would sky rocket.

Also I saw the housing crisis coming long ago, as I was working as a contractor and saw that to many people were buying well beyond their means counting on interest rates staying at the low rates they were.

I have even made out from the housing crisis, as I just bought a house that was 180k 4 years ago, for only 55k, and I used almost all cash to do it so the Crisis will not hurt me. Evenentually the market will rebound as it always does and I will make a nice profit on my home.

Finally when it was clear the housing market here in Michigan was going to collapse I got out of construction and took a job in OVT trucking, which is a good place to be as the Nation is in the mist of a shortage of truck drivers which is only going to get worse because so many of them are baby boomers looking to retire and so many owner operators are going under with the price of diesel. I even was wise enough to work for a company driving their truck and not try to be an owner operator. So they can pay for the gas and I can just get paid to drive. It pays about 50k a year and has very good benefits and the promise of making more as I do it longer.

The only draw back is I spend a lot of time away from my wife and kids, but at least I get to go out and see the country and not have to pay for the gas :)

omg! you are a trucker! the gop is trying to let mexican truckers in! proof you are voting against your own best interests! excellent. the more I talk to you guys, the more I know i'm right.

and based on your first argument, as an investor, I should be in favor of this because it will help my stocks. so what it wil lower your wages and maybe someday put you out of a job? as long as its not happening to my job....

andit will be YOUR FAULT for picking the wrong profession. but no biggy, you can just go back to school again, right?
 
I heard today Bush was pressing congress for drilling. Can someone please tell that fool that that oil will enter the same market which has plenty of supply already, it will enter the same market that has created our current prices and will have little or no impact as we ruin the wilderness forever.

Ismael Hossein-Zadeh: Is There an Oil Shortage?

"Wallace then asks, “So what is going on here? Why would our Energy Secretary say there's a supply and demand problem when none exists? Why would he say that speculators have little or nothing to do with the incredibly high price of oil and gasoline, when it's clear they do? President Bush—a former oilman—gives the ever-growing demand for gasoline as the primary reason prices are so high, yet that notion can be dispelled with one minute of research.”[3]

So, if indeed there is no imbalance between production and consumption of oil in global markets, how do we then explain the skyrocketing oil prices?

The answer, in a nutshell, is: war and geopolitical instability in oil markets. Contrary to the claims of the champions of war and militarism, of the Wall Street speculators in energy markets, and of the proponents of Peak Oil, the current oil price shocks are caused largely by the destabilizing wars and political turbulences in the Middle East. These include not only the raging wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also the danger of a looming war against Iran that would threaten the flow of oil out of Persian Gulf through the Strait of Hormuz."
 
I have been thinking about the price of oil, and the whimpering from the republicans and others. Oil prices are driven by supply, demand, and competition. Demand is driven by lifestyle. Now if a women cannot make a mistake and welfare participants cannot make a mistake then Americans who have made bad decisions regarding energy should suffer the same social darwinistic plight. So I guess I don't understand why republicans are blaming drilling, aka ruining our planet, for their own bad decisions.

You are starting with the faulty premise that somehow the right thinks people shouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and that we shouldn't help them when they do. Few people on the right have a problem helping people when they need help. That needs to be balanced with a bit of personal responsibility however. A message that seems to be pretty mich omitted from any leftist talking points.

Just as republicans and others complain about taxes, shouldn't citizens of the world complain about wasteful lifestyles that have the potential to ruin mother earth? It would seem from a moral point of view to be a fair conclusion. So again let me repeat my question, if we are irresponsible with energy then why the complaints? Didn't we create this situations? Answers welcome.

The blame can be shared by money on both the right and left. The left can be blamed for not letting us use what we have right under our feet and this contributing to the cost now and the right can be blamed for a hell of a lot of wastefil spending;

But you can ultimately blame freedom. In a free society, you get be wasteful. That's the definition of freedom. The abilty to do what you WANT to do. Ignorance and extravagance are the high price of freedom. We don't get politically involved as country for the most part because for the most part in our day to day lives,it doesn't effect us. Now that prices at the pump are starting to hurt we are taking notice.

If you want to start mandating what peolpe should allowed to have or what the have right to complain about fine, just make sure you take the banner of freedom when you leave.
 
omg! you are a trucker! the gop is trying to let mexican truckers in! proof you are voting against your own best interests! excellent. the more I talk to you guys, the more I know i'm right.

and based on your first argument, as an investor, I should be in favor of this because it will help my stocks. so what it wil lower your wages and maybe someday put you out of a job? as long as its not happening to my job....

andit will be YOUR FAULT for picking the wrong profession. but no biggy, you can just go back to school again, right?

For gods sake I am not VOTING REPUBLICAN wake the hell up and read.
 
I heard today Bush was pressing congress for drilling. Can someone please tell that fool that that oil will enter the same market which has plenty of supply already, it will enter the same market that has created our current prices and will have little or no impact as we ruin the wilderness forever.

Ismael Hossein-Zadeh: Is There an Oil Shortage?

"Wallace then asks, “So what is going on here? Why would our Energy Secretary say there's a supply and demand problem when none exists? Why would he say that speculators have little or nothing to do with the incredibly high price of oil and gasoline, when it's clear they do? President Bush—a former oilman—gives the ever-growing demand for gasoline as the primary reason prices are so high, yet that notion can be dispelled with one minute of research.”[3]

So, if indeed there is no imbalance between production and consumption of oil in global markets, how do we then explain the skyrocketing oil prices?

The answer, in a nutshell, is: war and geopolitical instability in oil markets. Contrary to the claims of the champions of war and militarism, of the Wall Street speculators in energy markets, and of the proponents of Peak Oil, the current oil price shocks are caused largely by the destabilizing wars and political turbulences in the Middle East. These include not only the raging wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also the danger of a looming war against Iran that would threaten the flow of oil out of Persian Gulf through the Strait of Hormuz."

Were driving so much less that they say driving deaths are down 1/3rd. So why isn't price going down with demand? Because it isn't supply and demand! They are gouging us when they lowered the value of the dollar. Its like when they caused the sub prime fiasco and bailed themselves out with our tax dollars.

viva revolution! lol
 
Were driving so much less that they say driving deaths are down 1/3rd. So why isn't price going down with demand? Because it isn't supply and demand! They are gouging us when they lowered the value of the dollar. Its like when they caused the sub prime fiasco and bailed themselves out with our tax dollars.

viva revolution! lol

Now the oil companies are responsible for the weak dollar? Wow, you need to pop your medication....:lol:
 
You are starting with the faulty premise that somehow the right thinks people shouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and that we shouldn't help them when they do. Few people on the right have a problem helping people when they need help. That needs to be balanced with a bit of personal responsibility however. A message that seems to be pretty mich omitted from any leftist talking points.



The blame can be shared by money on both the right and left. The left can be blamed for not letting us use what we have right under our feet and this contributing to the cost now and the right can be blamed for a hell of a lot of wastefil spending;

But you can ultimately blame freedom. In a free society, you get be wasteful. That's the definition of freedom. The abilty to do what you WANT to do. Ignorance and extravagance are the high price of freedom. We don't get politically involved as country for the most part because for the most part in our day to day lives,it doesn't effect us. Now that prices at the pump are starting to hurt we are taking notice.

If you want to start mandating what peolpe should allowed to have or what the have right to complain about fine, just make sure you take the banner of freedom when you leave.

PNAC said things would have to be bad in order for the neo cons to push their radical agenda. Disaster capitalism! So create a fake oil shortage and that will help sell us on tapping ANWAR and offshore.

Because we know they are doing it, we should nationalize oil like chavez did. Either that or regulate them better. If only Bush/McCain appointees would regulate them at all. But how do you regulate your boss. This is why the gop should never be in charge.

There isn't a shortage in oil. Not enough to raise gas to $4.50 a gallon.

So their next plan is to invade Iran. You'll let them tap ANWAR if gas is $10 a gallon.

All this is on purpose. And Bush is the perfect stooge to make it look like it was a mistake. Pretending to be religious makes you believe they would never do this on purpose. Free markets, socialism, terrorists, welfare. confused yet?

Don't worry, the gop will save us.

If the dems don't save us, no one will. Got to take a chance on them.
 
PNAC said things would have to be bad in order for the neo cons to push their radical agenda. Disaster capitalism! So create a fake oil shortage and that will help sell us on tapping ANWAR and offshore.

Because we know they are doing it, we should nationalize oil like chavez did. Either that or regulate them better. If only Bush/McCain appointees would regulate them at all. But how do you regulate your boss. This is why the gop should never be in charge.

There isn't a shortage in oil. Not enough to raise gas to $4.50 a gallon.

So their next plan is to invade Iran. You'll let them tap ANWAR if gas is $10 a gallon.

All this is on purpose. And Bush is the perfect stooge to make it look like it was a mistake. Pretending to be religious makes you believe they would never do this on purpose. Free markets, socialism, terrorists, welfare. confused yet?

Don't worry, the gop will save us.

If the dems don't save us, no one will. Got to take a chance on them.

Here's the deal, most I know want alternatives explored and given incentives to do so. Obama is against all drilling. McCain recently onboard with drilling. I'm voting McCain. He may not be really in favor of, any more than he is on tightening the borders, but he's a poll meister, as is Obama. The later's problem is his base, he's now way right of them and they are 'true believers.'
 
My point was that "they" are publicly owned cooperations. Do you even know what that means. When they make profits millions of Americans who own stock, or have 401k's or mutual funds also make money. When they lose money so do the people who own stocks.

Sure the people at the top make too much. I will not argue with that, but you can not argue with the fact that Millions and Millions of Americans also have a vested interest in them doing well.

Oh and I have made money in the market over the last few years. Because as soon as it was clear we were going to Invade Iraq. I moved most of my money into energy, gold and Defense stocks. Even in a poor market a smart investor can make money. You just need to be able to read the signs of what is coming. When we invaded Iraq you did not have to be a rocket scientist to see Energy and Defense stocks would sky rocket.

Also I saw the housing crisis coming long ago, as I was working as a contractor and saw that to many people were buying well beyond their means counting on interest rates staying at the low rates they were.

I have even made out from the housing crisis, as I just bought a house that was 180k 4 years ago, for only 55k, and I used almost all cash to do it so the Crisis will not hurt me. Evenentually the market will rebound as it always does and I will make a nice profit on my home.

Finally when it was clear the housing market here in Michigan was going to collapse I got out of construction and took a job in OVT trucking, which is a good place to be as the Nation is in the mist of a shortage of truck drivers which is only going to get worse because so many of them are baby boomers looking to retire and so many owner operators are going under with the price of diesel. I even was wise enough to work for a company driving their truck and not try to be an owner operator. So they can pay for the gas and I can just get paid to drive. It pays about 50k a year and has very good benefits and the promise of making more as I do it longer.

The only draw back is I spend a lot of time away from my wife and kids, but at least I get to go out and see the country and not have to pay for the gas :)

You have not made money in the stock market you bullshitter. My neocon buddy at work tried to claim that and he was lying too. defense, cheap house, oil and gold. you must be the smartest trucker in the world.

what a fucking LIAR.

But you tell a good story.
 
You have not made money in the stock market you bullshitter. My neocon buddy at work tried to claim that and he was lying too. defense, cheap house, oil and gold. you must be the smartest trucker in the world.

what a fucking LIAR.

But you tell a good story.

LOL typical lib, if it does not agree with his all knowing assesment of the world, it must be a lie. It is not a lie bud. Plenty of people have made money in the market just like I have. You ever think that it is you who are not so smart? Why is a trucker automatically dumb anyways? I make good living at it, and enjoy it, that is why I do it. Before that I made a good living and enjoyed being a contractor. one thing is crystal clear, you think you are the smartest man alive, and it is pretty funny considering some of the dumb stuff you say in here.
 
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