Is America To Blame?

[ekrem]

"World police" is only a "feel-good" argument to dilute the fact, that you are mainly following a strategy of militarnt foreign policy. The more you'll get your primacy over world challenged, the more you'll be limited on this strategy.
Emerging countries are testing the boundaries of their influence. Cnsequently, Neo-Cons wanted to secure the Greater Middle-East as solely US influence zone in a challenging 21st century with major competition. Make things straight in this area, secure this area before those emerging countries get stronger and capabilities to implement their own designs on this region.

Simple hegemonial politics, no "Mother Teresas" in Washington policeing the world for goodness of mankind.

 

[Si modo]

Rarely do I use all-encompassing words, but I feel comfortable in saying this: Every nation's foreign policies are designed to meet THAT nation's own best interest.

The USA is no different.

Calling that imperialism and/or hegemony is, at best, a joke, but likely dishonest and inflamatory rhetoric. I am not calling Grump dishonest, but allow a dishonest concept to become a fad in the political (and partisan) world, and an impartial examination of the concept becomes more and more difficult, usually because of the intended imflamation of emotions.

 

[Dr Grump]

Ahh- okay. From that standpoint, no, I don't think we deserved any kind of "payback". At that point, we were not yet in Iraq or Afghanistan. What do you think they were paying us back for?

But your were in Saudi and have influence there.

 

[Dr Grump]

Every fucking time there is a problem - anywhere in the world - everybody looks at us and says 'fix it'. And we do. We may not always do it the way the world wants but thems the breaks.

You want us to stop? Fine. Fix it your fucking selves.

Seems when we are wanted, we're everybody's best friend. When we do it because WE need to, we're the worst country on the planet. There are only so many times we will bail the asses of the world out and get slammed for it. One of these days, you'll need us and we'll say 'fuck it, you broke it, you fix it'... See how you like that.

If I had a dollar every time I've heard this...sigh

Just because you are asked to help out, does that give you the right to ride rough shod over other nations?

 

[Dr Grump]

and therein lies the attitude...

 

[Dr Grump]

we can start with the easy one;

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the policy or practice of extending a state's rule over other territories: Yep

explain please?

Well via economics and military strength you vicariously run Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment. You have bases in Germany (although no to little political influence) and Saudi Arabia...

there's a start...

 

[California Girl]

Every fucking time there is a problem - anywhere in the world - everybody looks at us and says 'fix it'. And we do. We may not always do it the way the world wants but thems the breaks.

You want us to stop? Fine. Fix it your fucking selves.

Seems when we are wanted, we're everybody's best friend. When we do it because WE need to, we're the worst country on the planet. There are only so many times we will bail the asses of the world out and get slammed for it. One of these days, you'll need us and we'll say 'fuck it, you broke it, you fix it'... See how you like that.

If I had a dollar every time I've heard this...sigh

Just because you are asked to help out, does that give you the right to ride rough shod over other nations?

You don't ask us for 'help', you expect the USA to do it for you.

Should the time come, and I happen to think it will, when the USA is not the world's greatest superpower.... Come and tell us how awful it was when we were in charge.... Because if China replaces us (as they well might).... I can guarantee you, you will look back on this supposed 'US imperialism' as the good old days.

 

[AllieBaba]

Every fucking time there is a problem - anywhere in the world - everybody looks at us and says 'fix it'. And we do. We may not always do it the way the world wants but thems the breaks.

You want us to stop? Fine. Fix it your fucking selves.

Seems when we are wanted, we're everybody's best friend. When we do it because WE need to, we're the worst country on the planet. There are only so many times we will bail the asses of the world out and get slammed for it. One of these days, you'll need us and we'll say 'fuck it, you broke it, you fix it'... See how you like that.

the unnecessary anger aside, are you sure you're not a jewish mother in another life?

what? you want i should cook for you and clean for you but i can't tell you who to date? oy! i'm going to kill myself.

just sayin'

and you don't see a difference between legitimate cooperation with other countries and when their interests co-exist with ours (which is the ONLY time we intervene at the request of other countries) and bullying our way in and deposing a sovereign leader (e.g., saddam) for no reason; or interfering in people's chosen governments because we don't like those governments (e.g., chile or iran-contra)?

you really saying that looks the same to you?

That's actually a really good analogy. The thing is, if America fights for liberty, they can't go wrong. There is nothing wrong with wanting to eradicate tyranny, oppression, and butchery, and taking steps to make the world a safer place.

 

[Dr Grump]

Rarely do I use all-encompassing words, but I feel comfortable in saying this: Every nation's foreign policies are designed to meet THAT nation's own best interest.

The USA is no different.

Calling that imperialism and/or hegemony is, at best, a joke, but likely dishonest and inflamatory rhetoric. I am not calling Grump dishonest, but allow a dishonest concept to become a fad in the political (and partisan) world, and an impartial examination of the concept becomes more and more difficult, usually because of the intended imflamation of emotions.

And I agree what you're saying with regard to best interests -but don't include NZ in that statement (i'll explain in final paragraph of this post). You haven't had it rammed down your throat most of your life that "NZ is the best country in the world" like we have about the US.

You state you are the best country in the world based on how your country was formed, your political and judicial system and the opportunities that your country can offer. I would add that your constitution and amendments thereof are spouted regularly, too, as to why your country is so great.

And yet these ideals that you country expouse to the rest of us -freedom of speech, freedom generally, being able to pursue life, liberty and happiness - are not truisms in reality as proven by the Machevallian shinnanigens your various admins have gotten into whether it was undermining Allende in Chile, or supporting a dictator like Diem in South Vietnam.

I'll stop the 'inflamatory' rhetoric if you stop you 'we are the best country in the world' rhetoric, where clearly in a lot of aspects you are found wanting.

As an aside, I actually disagree with every country looking after its own best interests. NZ takes the moral high ground on many occasions, when we could have interfered. The coup in Fiji being just one instance where we could have easily kicked out the leader, but didn't. It is up to Fiji to sort out its differences.

 

[AllieBaba]

Every fucking time there is a problem - anywhere in the world - everybody looks at us and says 'fix it'. And we do. We may not always do it the way the world wants but thems the breaks.

You want us to stop? Fine. Fix it your fucking selves.

Seems when we are wanted, we're everybody's best friend. When we do it because WE need to, we're the worst country on the planet. There are only so many times we will bail the asses of the world out and get slammed for it. One of these days, you'll need us and we'll say 'fuck it, you broke it, you fix it'... See how you like that.

If I had a dollar every time I've heard this...sigh

Just because you are asked to help out, does that give you the right to ride rough shod over other nations?

You don't ask us for 'help', you expect the USA to do it for you.

Should the time come, and I happen to think it will, when the USA is not the world's greatest superpower.... Come and tell us how awful it was when we were in charge.... Because if China replaces us (as they well might).... I can guarantee you, you will look back on this supposed 'US imperialism' as the good old days.

They think somehow if somebody else takes the reins, it will be better.

What a laugh.

 

[NYcarbineer]

A question that has been done over and over. Frankly I tire of the Debate.

Suffice to say that if we do not fill the roll of the worlds Main power. Someone else will.

And how would that hurt us? If someone else was mired in 2 wars in the ME, if someone else was defending S. Korea, Japan, and Europe, and whoever else, for free, if someone else was spending hundreds of billions of borrowed money on useless adventures, and we were off the hook the whole of it,

how would that hurt us?

 

[jillian]

That's actually a really good analogy. The thing is, if America fights for liberty, they can't go wrong. There is nothing wrong with wanting to eradicate tyranny, oppression, and butchery, and taking steps to make the world a safer place.

thanks.

the problem is that we don't just fight for liberty. we have as has been mentioned, intentionally undermined elected governments like that in chile. and even with saddam... yes, he was a bad guy. but you know, just because we think he was a bad guy doesn't mean we should go in and interfere without being asked... especially when a lot of people there died because we interfered.

if bombs are falling on your house, maybe you don't care that it's a step toward some nebulous concept of liberty...especially when your job is gone and there's no electricity and suddenlty there are people making women wear burkas where they were able to work and go to university.

well meaning? maybe for some. maybe not so much for others.

 

[Dr Grump]

[

You don't ask us for 'help', you expect the USA to do it for you.

Should the time come, and I happen to think it will, when the USA is not the world's greatest superpower.... Come and tell us how awful it was when we were in charge.... Because if China replaces us (as they well might).... I can guarantee you, you will look back on this supposed 'US imperialism' as the good old days.

From a purely country POV, we've never asked or needed the US help, but I hear you. And I think the US does a great job in times of disaster.

I only think the US will cease being a Super power because your financial and political systems are set up to fail - eventually...

 

[lizzie]

Take all the emotion out of the argument and let's get to the basic premise. What do you guys think of American hegemony, or 'imperialism' for want of a better word - whether it be economical or militarily?

I find it weird/bizarre/strange that a lot of the extreme right in America (and on this board) are all about "freedom", "pursuit of happiness", "freedom of speech" yadda, yadda, yadda, yet your country has absolutely no problems interferring in the inner mechanisms of other countries - overtly (Iraq/Afghanistan/Panama), or covertly (Chile/Central America)..

How do you marry both trains of thought and not expect some kind of payback?

Just wonderin'.....

Every fucking time there is a problem - anywhere in the world - everybody looks at us and says 'fix it'. And we do. We may not always do it the way the world wants but thems the breaks.

You want us to stop? Fine. Fix it your fucking selves.

Seems when we are wanted, we're everybody's best friend. When we do it because WE need to, we're the worst country on the planet. There are only so many times we will bail the asses of the world out and get slammed for it. One of these days, you'll need us and we'll say 'fuck it, you broke it, you fix it'... See how you like that.

And we rarely are thanked for the help we provide. Instead, we get guilt tripped that we didn't do enough.

Ahh- okay. From that standpoint, no, I don't think we deserved any kind of "payback". At that point, we were not yet in Iraq or Afghanistan. What do you think they were paying us back for?

But your were in Saudi and have influence there.

We do business with Saudis. I completely support and understand the need to do business. We aren't trying to rebuild their nation in our own image, which is what I have a problem with in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Old Rocks]

we can start with the easy one;

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the policy or practice of extending a state's rule over other territories: Yep

explain please?

Crap! Have you read the history of the banana republics of south america? How in the hell do you think that the name came about?

No, we are hardly the only nation guilty of that kind of economic and political aggression. The European nations have been doing for far longer than there has been a US.

 

[Dr Grump]

Every fucking time there is a problem - anywhere in the world - everybody looks at us and says 'fix it'. And we do. We may not always do it the way the world wants but thems the breaks.

You want us to stop? Fine. Fix it your fucking selves.

Seems when we are wanted, we're everybody's best friend. When we do it because WE need to, we're the worst country on the planet. There are only so many times we will bail the asses of the world out and get slammed for it. One of these days, you'll need us and we'll say 'fuck it, you broke it, you fix it'... See how you like that.

And we rarely are thanked for the help we provide. Instead, we get guilt tripped that we didn't do enough.

Ahh- okay. From that standpoint, no, I don't think we deserved any kind of "payback". At that point, we were not yet in Iraq or Afghanistan. What do you think they were paying us back for?

But your were in Saudi and have influence there.

We do business with Saudis. I completely support and understand the need to do business. We aren't trying to rebuild their nation in our own image, which is what I have a problem with in Iraq and Afghanistan.

at a political level I see the business angle. At the street level though, it's more like "Why is freedom loving America supporting a dictatorship like the House of Saud?" Thus you get 9-11

 

[Dr Grump]

we can start with the easy one;

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the policy or practice of extending a state's rule over other territories: Yep

explain please?

Crap! Have you read the history of the banana republics of south america? How in the hell do you think that the name came about?

No, we are hardly the only nation guilty of that kind of economic and political aggression. The European nations have been doing for far longer than there has been a US.

True re Europe, but I would sayin the past, not now. Their peoples' don't allow it, and if the govt does step out of line they get voted out - just look at Spain when their prime minister committed troops to Iraq, or Gordon Brown getting his marching orders...

 

[lizzie]

at a political level I see the business angle. At the street level though, it's more like "Why is freedom loving America supporting a dictatorship like the House of Saud?" Thus you get 9-11

Because it's their House of Saud, not ours. The street level perception is something that needs to be handled in the Saudi nation, not by us.

 

[Dr Grump]

Because it's their House of Saud, not ours. The street level perception is something that needs to be handled in the Saudi nation, not by us.

Yeah, but you support that house with business, but more importantly, arms...

 

[Si modo]

Rarely do I use all-encompassing words, but I feel comfortable in saying this: Every nation's foreign policies are designed to meet THAT nation's own best interest.

The USA is no different.

Calling that imperialism and/or hegemony is, at best, a joke, but likely dishonest and inflamatory rhetoric. I am not calling Grump dishonest, but allow a dishonest concept to become a fad in the political (and partisan) world, and an impartial examination of the concept becomes more and more difficult, usually because of the intended imflamation of emotions.

And I agree what you're saying with regard to best interests -but don't include NZ in that statement (i'll explain in final paragraph of this post). You haven't had it rammed down your throat most of your life that "NZ is the best country in the world" like we have about the US.

You state you are the best country in the world based on how your country was formed, your political and judicial system and the opportunities that your country can offer. I would add that your constitution and amendments thereof are spouted regularly, too, as to why your country is so great.

And yet these ideals that you country expouse to the rest of us -freedom of speech, freedom generally, being able to pursue life, liberty and happiness - are not truisms in reality as proven by the Machevallian shinnanigens your various admins have gotten into whether it was undermining Allende in Chile, or supporting a dictator like Diem in South Vietnam.

I'll stop the 'inflamatory' rhetoric if you stop you 'we are the best country in the world' rhetoric, where clearly in a lot of aspects you are found wanting.

As an aside, I actually disagree with every country looking after its own best interests. NZ takes the moral high ground on many occasions, when we could have interfered. The coup in Fiji being just one instance where we could have easily kicked out the leader, but didn't. It is up to Fiji to sort out its differences.

Most Americans DO believe this country to be the best in the world. That is not unusual. We were raised in this system and this is our world - our idea of what is best from our perspective and our perspective is us, for most of us. That's quite natural.

Saying we are the best doesn't equate to our ramming our system down another's throat. Of course, we do our best to influence (sometimes by force, but more often through economic influence, which unfortunately will not be as influential of an option for us because our economy now sucks) other nations to develop a similar system because, as I said, that is in our best interest.

The reason it is in our best interest is because we rarely have an overall adversarial relationship (either with respect to national security or with trade) with a nation that has a system of government based on democracy.

Bottom line, the more nations in the world that are democracy-based, the more secure the USA will be - our best interest, our foreign policy.

I hope that makes sense.