Irreconcilable Differences?

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

It is pretty clear that, politically, our nation is split into two camps with antithetical views about the role of government. As a result, we are moving towards a system where whichever side gains a temporary majority can dictate its views without any regard for the minority. This, in turn, creates a feeling of disenfranchisement which undermines confidence in our democracy and leads to civil unrest, which can be expressed in many ways.

One way to avoid this developing situation is to return to the concept of State Sovereignty as envisioned by our Founders in the Constitution. (I avoid the term "States Rights" because of its association with the obviously unconstitutional practice of racial segregation.) This concept, specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights, limited the Federal government's authority to impose its will on the various States without their consent. It was the basis upon which 13 political entities, with widely divergent views, were able to join together to create an exceptional new country. The beauty of this system is that it allows people to agree to disagree without infringing on each others' rights.

Why can't we return to that concept for the future? Why must one side impose its will on the other side on an increasing variety of social and moral issues? Why can't the people of individual states decide for themselves? We are all free to express our views with our ballots (and our feet, if necessary). What ever happened to tolerance for opposing viewpoints?

Zealots on both sides should reconsider their authoritarian positions, lest they reap what they have sown.

I think we're headed towards Civil War, and not in the way many would think.

40% of the populaton have turned into liberal idiots hell bent on shutting up anyone who dares disagree with them
40% of the population have turned into conservative idiots trying to do the same.

20% of the population are sick of all the idiots and just want to be left the hell alone as much as possible.

Us 20% are going to have to stand up and fight to shut the 80% up.

I'm sick of hearing about gay rights
I'm sick of hearing about abortion
I'm sick of hearing about an offensively named fish
I'm sick of hearing about things would be better if we didn't have a minimum wage law
I'm sick of hearing that the rep party hates women and minorities
I'm sick of hearing that Obama is a Kenyan Marxist

etc, etc, etc.

Common sense, decency , and actually caring about something other than our own selfish wants has became a minority in this country and that could be our doom as a nation.

 

[Youch]

It is pretty clear that, politically, our nation is split into two camps with antithetical views about the role of government. As a result, we are moving towards a system where whichever side gains a temporary majority can dictate its views without any regard for the minority. This, in turn, creates a feeling of disenfranchisement which undermines confidence in our democracy and leads to civil unrest, which can be expressed in many ways.

One way to avoid this developing situation is to return to the concept of State Sovereignty as envisioned by our Founders in the Constitution. (I avoid the term "States Rights" because of its association with the obviously unconstitutional practice of racial segregation.) This concept, specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights, limited the Federal government's authority to impose its will on the various States without their consent. It was the basis upon which 13 political entities, with widely divergent views, were able to join together to create an exceptional new country. The beauty of this system is that it allows people to agree to disagree without infringing on each others' rights.

Why can't we return to that concept for the future? Why must one side impose its will on the other side on an increasing variety of social and moral issues? Why can't the people of individual states decide for themselves? We are all free to express our views with our ballots (and our feet, if necessary). What ever happened to tolerance for opposing viewpoints?

Zealots on both sides should reconsider their authoritarian positions, lest they reap what they have sown.

If, by sides you mean parties, you are correct.

If by sides you mean philosophies, you could not be more wrong. Or more dangerous. The conservative/constitutional philosophy is OBVIOUSLY a healthier direction.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is pretty clear that, politically, our nation is split into two camps with antithetical views about the role of government. As a result, we are moving towards a system where whichever side gains a temporary majority can dictate its views without any regard for the minority. This, in turn, creates a feeling of disenfranchisement which undermines confidence in our democracy and leads to civil unrest, which can be expressed in many ways.

One way to avoid this developing situation is to return to the concept of State Sovereignty as envisioned by our Founders in the Constitution. (I avoid the term "States Rights" because of its association with the obviously unconstitutional practice of racial segregation.) This concept, specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights, limited the Federal government's authority to impose its will on the various States without their consent. It was the basis upon which 13 political entities, with widely divergent views, were able to join together to create an exceptional new country. The beauty of this system is that it allows people to agree to disagree without infringing on each others' rights.

Why can't we return to that concept for the future? Why must one side impose its will on the other side on an increasing variety of social and moral issues? Why can't the people of individual states decide for themselves? We are all free to express our views with our ballots (and our feet, if necessary). What ever happened to tolerance for opposing viewpoints?

Zealots on both sides should reconsider their authoritarian positions, lest they reap what they have sown.

I think we're headed towards Civil War, and not in the way many would think.

40% of the populaton have turned into liberal idiots hell bent on shutting up anyone who dares disagree with them
40% of the population have turned into conservative idiots trying to do the same.

20% of the population are sick of all the idiots and just want to be left the hell alone as much as possible.

Us 20% are going to have to stand up and fight to shut the 80% up.

I'm sick of hearing about gay rights
I'm sick of hearing about abortion
I'm sick of hearing about an offensively named fish
I'm sick of hearing about things would be better if we didn't have a minimum wage law
I'm sick of hearing that the rep party hates women and minorities
I'm sick of hearing that Obama is a Kenyan Marxist

etc, etc, etc.

Common sense, decency , and actually caring about something other than our own selfish wants has became a minority in this country and that could be our doom as a nation.

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

It is pretty clear that, politically, our nation is split into two camps with antithetical views about the role of government. As a result, we are moving towards a system where whichever side gains a temporary majority can dictate its views without any regard for the minority. This, in turn, creates a feeling of disenfranchisement which undermines confidence in our democracy and leads to civil unrest, which can be expressed in many ways.

One way to avoid this developing situation is to return to the concept of State Sovereignty as envisioned by our Founders in the Constitution. (I avoid the term "States Rights" because of its association with the obviously unconstitutional practice of racial segregation.) This concept, specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights, limited the Federal government's authority to impose its will on the various States without their consent. It was the basis upon which 13 political entities, with widely divergent views, were able to join together to create an exceptional new country. The beauty of this system is that it allows people to agree to disagree without infringing on each others' rights.

Why can't we return to that concept for the future? Why must one side impose its will on the other side on an increasing variety of social and moral issues? Why can't the people of individual states decide for themselves? We are all free to express our views with our ballots (and our feet, if necessary). What ever happened to tolerance for opposing viewpoints?

Zealots on both sides should reconsider their authoritarian positions, lest they reap what they have sown.

I think we're headed towards Civil War, and not in the way many would think.

40% of the populaton have turned into liberal idiots hell bent on shutting up anyone who dares disagree with them
40% of the population have turned into conservative idiots trying to do the same.

20% of the population are sick of all the idiots and just want to be left the hell alone as much as possible.

Us 20% are going to have to stand up and fight to shut the 80% up.

I'm sick of hearing about gay rights
I'm sick of hearing about abortion
I'm sick of hearing about an offensively named fish
I'm sick of hearing about things would be better if we didn't have a minimum wage law
I'm sick of hearing that the rep party hates women and minorities
I'm sick of hearing that Obama is a Kenyan Marxist

etc, etc, etc.

Common sense, decency , and actually caring about something other than our own selfish wants has became a minority in this country and that could be our doom as a nation.

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

 

[Foxfyre]

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

It isn't a 'dislike' but a 'disagree' so I doubt admin would think it illegal even in the clean zone. It does not affect your standing or take away from your rating. I personally see absolutely no benefit to anybody by using it--if I disagree with somebody I will say so openly on the board--but oh well.

But otherwise, I think both of us are simply saying that the politics of personal destruction seem to have taken over the national conversation. We all need to just stop, take a deep breath, grow up a bit, and realize how destructive and nonproductive that is. And then find a way to agree and disagree while respecting the other person.

 

[Flopper]

It is pretty clear that, politically, our nation is split into two camps with antithetical views about the role of government. As a result, we are moving towards a system where whichever side gains a temporary majority can dictate its views without any regard for the minority. This, in turn, creates a feeling of disenfranchisement which undermines confidence in our democracy and leads to civil unrest, which can be expressed in many ways.

One way to avoid this developing situation is to return to the concept of State Sovereignty as envisioned by our Founders in the Constitution. (I avoid the term "States Rights" because of its association with the obviously unconstitutional practice of racial segregation.) This concept, specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights, limited the Federal government's authority to impose its will on the various States without their consent. It was the basis upon which 13 political entities, with widely divergent views, were able to join together to create an exceptional new country. The beauty of this system is that it allows people to agree to disagree without infringing on each others' rights.

Why can't we return to that concept for the future? Why must one side impose its will on the other side on an increasing variety of social and moral issues? Why can't the people of individual states decide for themselves? We are all free to express our views with our ballots (and our feet, if necessary). What ever happened to tolerance for opposing viewpoints?

Zealots on both sides should reconsider their authoritarian positions, lest they reap what they have sown.

The problem is, we no longer live in the late 1700's. Weakening the federal government by shifting the power to the states will only create more serious problems than we have today. Do we really want a weaken federal government in which states can secede from the union when they disagree with federal policy; a nation in which states can act more like independent nations than the "United States"? It is vital today that the nation speak with one voice, not as a loose confederation of states each pursuing their own goals.

You speak of the disenfranchisement and undermining of democracy, well just how good have the state been at protecting the rights of their citizens? Slavery was justified on the ground that each State should be free to determine its own economic practices. In the 1890's, corrective federal legislation against monopolies was attacked on the grounds that the States and not the federal government had the sole right to regulate business. In the 30's, important measures that would have alleviated the worst problems of the depression were struck down by the Supreme Court on the grounds that the new laws invaded the prerogatives of the States. After the Civil War, the Southern states used every means possible to keep the black population in a subservient position and engaged in "massive resistance" to school desegregation orders. The states have a long sordid history of trampling over the rights of the individual.

Stripping the federal government of it's power, may solve one problem but will create a far greater problem.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

It isn't a 'dislike' but a 'disagree' so I doubt admin would think it illegal even in the clean zone. It does not affect your standing or take away from your rating. I personally see absolutely no benefit to anybody by using it--if I disagree with somebody I will say so openly on the board--but oh well.

But otherwise, I think both of us are simply saying that the politics of personal destruction seem to have taken over the national conversation. We all need to just stop, take a deep breath, grow up a bit, and realize how destructive and nonproductive that is. And then find a way to agree and disagree while respecting the other person.

Absolutely

 

[Rotagilla]

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

It isn't a 'dislike' but a 'disagree' so I doubt admin would think it illegal even in the clean zone. It does not affect your standing or take away from your rating. I personally see absolutely no benefit to anybody by using it--if I disagree with somebody I will say so openly on the board--but oh well.

But otherwise, I think both of us are simply saying that the politics of personal destruction seem to have taken over the national conversation. We all need to just stop, take a deep breath, grow up a bit, and realize how destructive and nonproductive that is. And then find a way to agree and disagree while respecting the other person.

Absolutely

You can't maintain a nation by forcing people to comply at gunpoint. It will work for a period time but eventually oppressive gvmt and historical grievances will compel people to separate.
This nation was founded on the same principles.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

It isn't a 'dislike' but a 'disagree' so I doubt admin would think it illegal even in the clean zone. It does not affect your standing or take away from your rating. I personally see absolutely no benefit to anybody by using it--if I disagree with somebody I will say so openly on the board--but oh well.

But otherwise, I think both of us are simply saying that the politics of personal destruction seem to have taken over the national conversation. We all need to just stop, take a deep breath, grow up a bit, and realize how destructive and nonproductive that is. And then find a way to agree and disagree while respecting the other person.

Absolutely

You can't maintain a nation by forcing people to comply at gunpoint. It will work for a period time but eventually oppressive gvmt and historical grievances will compel people to separate.
This nation was founded on the same principles.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

you can if you have all the guns

 

[Rotagilla]

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

It isn't a 'dislike' but a 'disagree' so I doubt admin would think it illegal even in the clean zone. It does not affect your standing or take away from your rating. I personally see absolutely no benefit to anybody by using it--if I disagree with somebody I will say so openly on the board--but oh well.

But otherwise, I think both of us are simply saying that the politics of personal destruction seem to have taken over the national conversation. We all need to just stop, take a deep breath, grow up a bit, and realize how destructive and nonproductive that is. And then find a way to agree and disagree while respecting the other person.

Absolutely

You can't maintain a nation by forcing people to comply at gunpoint. It will work for a period time but eventually oppressive gvmt and historical grievances will compel people to separate.
This nation was founded on the same principles.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

you can if you have all the guns

That's what the british thought.
They were wrong, too.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

It isn't a 'dislike' but a 'disagree' so I doubt admin would think it illegal even in the clean zone. It does not affect your standing or take away from your rating. I personally see absolutely no benefit to anybody by using it--if I disagree with somebody I will say so openly on the board--but oh well.

But otherwise, I think both of us are simply saying that the politics of personal destruction seem to have taken over the national conversation. We all need to just stop, take a deep breath, grow up a bit, and realize how destructive and nonproductive that is. And then find a way to agree and disagree while respecting the other person.

Absolutely

You can't maintain a nation by forcing people to comply at gunpoint. It will work for a period time but eventually oppressive gvmt and historical grievances will compel people to separate.
This nation was founded on the same principles.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

you can if you have all the guns

That's what the british thought.
They were wrong, too.

A) I was kidding
B) The British never made any attempt to disarm the colonists.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

If we can only get Dems to stop cheating at the voting booth

 

[oldfart]

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

First .the vast majority of posters on this board are more interested in flinging mindless partisan invective than having a reasoned discussion of anything. Most posts amount to "Hurrah for our side!" with no support in argumentation or fact. To be honest, I doubt if 10% of the threads started are anything except trolling expeditions. That's the way it is, and I assume that that is what most posters want.

Some of us have tried to police certain threads to fend off the trolls and impose some civility, but about 70% of the time it does not work. I believe you personally have busted a couple of those threads and negged me in the bargain.

I suppose it would be charitable to assume that your new found civility is sincere and I could rely on you to forswear the dark side, so I do. Maybe you could even learn to not treat trolls as thoughtful posters and thoughtful posters as trolls. I hope so.

 

[Rotagilla]

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

It isn't a 'dislike' but a 'disagree' so I doubt admin would think it illegal even in the clean zone. It does not affect your standing or take away from your rating. I personally see absolutely no benefit to anybody by using it--if I disagree with somebody I will say so openly on the board--but oh well.

But otherwise, I think both of us are simply saying that the politics of personal destruction seem to have taken over the national conversation. We all need to just stop, take a deep breath, grow up a bit, and realize how destructive and nonproductive that is. And then find a way to agree and disagree while respecting the other person.

Absolutely

You can't maintain a nation by forcing people to comply at gunpoint. It will work for a period time but eventually oppressive gvmt and historical grievances will compel people to separate.
This nation was founded on the same principles.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

you can if you have all the guns

That's what the british thought.
They were wrong, too.

A) I was kidding
B) The British never made any attempt to disarm the colonists.

The British invaded and killed colonists because they wanted the freedom to form their own government.
No they didn't "disarm" them. ..Ok..technically you're right...but when you kill someone you have effectively "disarmed" them.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I have to agree with this. I am sick and tired of leftists who can't express an opinion without being judgmental and hateful toward anybody who doesn't share their ideological religion.

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

That's absolutely correct, in the overall scheme of things Obama has not been a good President, but he has done some things that helped people and the simple fact that he's a liberal shouldn't prevent one from acknowledging this fact.

On a side note, I thought disliking a post was verboten in the clean zone, certainly it's childish, but am I wrong about this, I get enough dislikes in the other forums from childish people. I thought this was the adult forum?

It isn't a 'dislike' but a 'disagree' so I doubt admin would think it illegal even in the clean zone. It does not affect your standing or take away from your rating. I personally see absolutely no benefit to anybody by using it--if I disagree with somebody I will say so openly on the board--but oh well.

But otherwise, I think both of us are simply saying that the politics of personal destruction seem to have taken over the national conversation. We all need to just stop, take a deep breath, grow up a bit, and realize how destructive and nonproductive that is. And then find a way to agree and disagree while respecting the other person.

Absolutely

You can't maintain a nation by forcing people to comply at gunpoint. It will work for a period time but eventually oppressive gvmt and historical grievances will compel people to separate.
This nation was founded on the same principles.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

you can if you have all the guns

That's what the british thought.
They were wrong, too.

A) I was kidding
B) The British never made any attempt to disarm the colonists.

The British invaded and killed colonists because they wanted the freedom to form their own government.
No they didn't "disarm" them. ..Ok..technically you're right...but when you kill someone you have effectively "disarmed" them.

Well, I guess when you put it that way. When you kill someone, you have technically took away ALL their rights.

 

[OnePercenter]

It is pretty clear that, politically, our nation is split into two camps with antithetical views about the role of government. As a result, we are moving towards a system where whichever side gains a temporary majority can dictate its views without any regard for the minority. This, in turn, creates a feeling of disenfranchisement which undermines confidence in our democracy and leads to civil unrest, which can be expressed in many ways.

One way to avoid this developing situation is to return to the concept of State Sovereignty as envisioned by our Founders in the Constitution. (I avoid the term "States Rights" because of its association with the obviously unconstitutional practice of racial segregation.) This concept, specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights, limited the Federal government's authority to impose its will on the various States without their consent. It was the basis upon which 13 political entities, with widely divergent views, were able to join together to create an exceptional new country. The beauty of this system is that it allows people to agree to disagree without infringing on each others' rights.

Why can't we return to that concept for the future? Why must one side impose its will on the other side on an increasing variety of social and moral issues? Why can't the people of individual states decide for themselves? We are all free to express our views with our ballots (and our feet, if necessary). What ever happened to tolerance for opposing viewpoints?

Zealots on both sides should reconsider their authoritarian positions, lest they reap what they have sown.

One needs to keep in mind that Democrats haven't had a true majority since the last two years of Ford, and the first two years of Carter.

 

[Foxfyre]

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

First .the vast majority of posters on this board are more interested in flinging mindless partisan invective than having a reasoned discussion of anything. Most posts amount to "Hurrah for our side!" with no support in argumentation or fact. To be honest, I doubt if 10% of the threads started are anything except trolling expeditions. That's the way it is, and I assume that that is what most posters want.

Some of us have tried to police certain threads to fend off the trolls and impose some civility, but about 70% of the time it does not work. I believe you personally have busted a couple of those threads and negged me in the bargain.

I suppose it would be charitable to assume that your new found civility is sincere and I could rely on you to forswear the dark side, so I do. Maybe you could even learn to not treat trolls as thoughtful posters and thoughtful posters as trolls. I hope so.

I don't 'bust' threads and I don't neg rep anybody except for one member who asked me to as an experiment and I agreed on condition I could give him two pos reps to make up for it. There was one other member I did neg rep one time years ago but that was too long a story to bother with here. I don't use the 'disagree' button either. And if you could point out a thread in which I have been uncivil EVER, I would appreciate it. Because I would owe whomever I was uncivil to an apology. I can assure you that I have never neg repped you nor have I ever disrespected you, and you should admit that right now lest you bear false witness.

Also, speaking of civility, if you are going to quote me to accuse me, I suggest you quote the whole post to give what you quote its proper context.

But it certainly does back up the thesis of the OP doesn't it? When people are accused of all sorts of things because they're on the "wrong" side?

 

[oldfart]

But I also am weary of those in my own ideological camp who have lost all semblance of objectivity or fairness. While of course those in government deserve valid criticism, some more than others, and while Obama has been a huge disappointment and liability by anybody's reasonable standards, some on my side are incapable of giving him any approval or props even when he is right. If he said he likes apple pie, they would find something wrong with that. And for Pete's sake, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When all logic, reason, objectivity, and intellectual honesty is thrown out the window and is replaced by blind partisanship, all you have is unpleasant noise, blame, judgmentalism, and discord. And nothing constructive will ever get done in that kind of dynamic.

First .the vast majority of posters on this board are more interested in flinging mindless partisan invective than having a reasoned discussion of anything. Most posts amount to "Hurrah for our side!" with no support in argumentation or fact. To be honest, I doubt if 10% of the threads started are anything except trolling expeditions. That's the way it is, and I assume that that is what most posters want.

Some of us have tried to police certain threads to fend off the trolls and impose some civility, but about 70% of the time it does not work. I believe you personally have busted a couple of those threads and negged me in the bargain.

I suppose it would be charitable to assume that your new found civility is sincere and I could rely on you to forswear the dark side, so I do. Maybe you could even learn to not treat trolls as thoughtful posters and thoughtful posters as trolls. I hope so.

I don't 'bust' threads and I don't neg rep anybody except for one member who asked me to as an experiment and I agreed on condition I could give him two pos reps to make up for it. There was one other member I did neg rep one time years ago but that was too long a story to bother with here. I don't use the 'disagree' button either. And if you could point out a thread in which I have been uncivil EVER, I would appreciate it. Because I would owe whomever I was uncivil to an apology. I can assure you that I have never neg repped you nor have I ever disrespected you, and you should admit that right now lest you bear false witness.

Frankly I would rather believe I was mistaken and move on. As it appears I was in error, I apologize.

 

[Flopper]

It is pretty clear that, politically, our nation is split into two camps with antithetical views about the role of government..

I really think there are 3 groups. Two groups that are deeply committed to the liberal or conservative ideology, that spend a lot of time watching news shows, surfing the net, and discussing political issues. Then there's a third group that work 40+ hours a week, spending their evenings and weekends cleaning and working on the house, supervising homework, taking the kids to soccer practice, swimming meets, play dates, dental appointments, doctor appointments, paying bills, and church. Then after all the kids are in bed, the final hours of the day are spent dozing in front of the TV and catching 10 or 15 mins of news, weather and sports. And it's the third group that often determines election outcomes.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is pretty clear that, politically, our nation is split into two camps with antithetical views about the role of government..

I really think there are 3 groups. Two groups that are deeply committed to the liberal or conservative ideology, that spend a lot of time watching news shows, surfing the net, and discussing political issues. Then there's a third group that work 40+ hours a week, spending their evenings and weekends cleaning and working on the house, supervising homework, taking the kids to soccer practice, swimming meets, play dates, dental appointments, doctor appointments, paying bills, and church. Then after all the kids are in bed, the final hours of the day are spent dozing in front of the TV and catching 10 or 15 mins of news, weather and sports. And it's the third group that often determines election outcomes.

Actually I think the group you describe as the 'third group' are probably more politically involved and savvy than you think. They might not be as up on every detail as those of us haggling over stuff on a message board, but they know what is going on because it affects them, their jobs and businesses, and their families/children. If you call them up on a political survey, they will have answers for most of the questions and those answers will have some substance behind them.

For me the third group are those who don't have a clue. They probably know who Barack Obama is and who Sarah Palin is, but they can't tell you who is vice president or Speaker of the House or majority leader in the Senate or which party is in power in Washington or any details about anything in the news. If they vote at all it is purely on some vague impression of who is the good guys and who is the bad guys or who is sending them their government check.