Intelligent Design and Evolution?

[AllieBaba]

Like I said, scientists are just as likely to make stupid assumptions as anybody...and assumptions are all you're talking about. To think those who believe in one assumption over another when there's no proof of any of it is evidence of your faulty ability to reason.

 

[Shogun]

Like I said, scientists are just as likely to make stupid assumptions as anybody...and assumptions are all you're talking about. To think those who believe in one assumption over another when there's no proof of any of it is evidence of your faulty ability to reason.

no, allie.. this is where you fuck up. Evidence plays a larger role than faith. Sorry if that rubs your bible the wrong way but, in science, THAT is the standard.

and yes, science has a history of stupidity. The four humours of the body and phrenolgy comes to mind. BUT, there is a mountain of evidence Allie, and your side just cant fathom that faith is no substitute.

 

[manifold]

Like I said, scientists are just as likely to make stupid assumptions as anybody...and assumptions are all you're talking about. To think those who believe in one assumption over another when there's no proof of any of it is evidence of your faulty ability to reason.

It's not an assumption. It's a fact. To suggest otherwise is to betray a profound ignorance for what randomness means.

 

[AllieBaba]

no, allie.. this is where you fuck up. Evidence plays a larger role than faith. Sorry if that rubs your bible the wrong way but, in science, THAT is the standard.

and yes, science has a history of stupidity. The four humours of the body and phrenolgy comes to mind. BUT, there is a mountain of evidence Allie, and your side just cant fathom that faith is no substitute.

I believe that faith will ultimately answer all the questions. Doesn't mean the questions aren't fascinating and compelling, or that we should refuse to use the wonderful minds that God gave us to learn all we can.

Here's something interesting about more evidence that biblical references to ultra-aged men and women could be accurate:
http://www.christianevidences.org/paleontology

I know it's a Christian site, don't whine. The information doesn't come from Christian sources. It's just that nobody but Christians will write about facts which support the existence of God, or the veracity of the Bible.

And here's Dr. Cuozo in his own words talking about the science of it...
http://www.jackcuozzo.com/

 

[Steerpike]

Try to stay on topic please. Evolution is the context. It is not possible, in any way shape or form, to eliminate the possibility that genetic mutations occur randomly. Period. That's the fact part.

Now for the opinion part. Anyone that doesn't think it isn't only possible, but highly highly probable, is retarded.

Manifold:

We know genetic mutations occur randomly. It has been observed in the lab. In fact, the error rate of DNA Polymerase, the enzyme responsible for creating copies of DNA from what is already in a cell when it divides, has been calculated. That is the main source of "random" mutations - simple errors in DNA sequence as a result of the enzyme putting a wrong nucleotide in place. Many such errors are neutral, meaning they don't provide either a selective advantage or disadvantage. Some may be beneficial and other may be harmful.

 

[Steerpike]

I believe that faith will ultimately answer all the questions. Doesn't mean the questions aren't fascinating and compelling, or that we should refuse to use the wonderful minds that God gave us to learn all we can.

The last sentence you used it the important one, Allie. I've worked in a number of evolutionary biology labs, and without a single exception the evolutionary scientists I've worked for have all be Christian. A couple of them were in fact very devout Christians. They would tell you there is no inherent conflict between Christianity and Evolution (which is a position I agree with with). They would also tell you that while they believe the laws of the physical universe were put in place by God, so that our evolution was inevitable, that ID itself is not science and shouldn't be in science class. I agree with that as well.

 

[manifold]

Manifold:

We know genetic mutations occur randomly. It has been observed in the lab. In fact, the error rate of DNA Polymerase, the enzyme responsible for creating copies of DNA from what is already in a cell when it divides, has been calculated. That is the main source of "random" mutations - simple errors in DNA sequence as a result of the enzyme putting a wrong nucleotide in place. Many such errors are neutral, meaning they don't provide either a selective advantage or disadvantage. Some may be beneficial and other may be harmful.

yup

 

[Diuretic]

I'm not going to discuss whether the previous poster was or was not correct about every example he used to try and make his point. But it is a fact that scientific truth is not determined by a democratic vote and never can be. At one point in our history every single scientist without exception agreed that the sun revolved around the earth. Did the fact there was 100% consensus in the scientific community mean it must have been true then? No, it only meant they were 100% wrong. Think that was the last time the general consensus among scientists was dead wrong? In fact, science has gotten it wrong MORE often than it has gotten it right -throughout our history and that has not changed and is not going to change. It is the nature of scientific discovery and we had better stop pretending whatever a scientist says is carved in stone from then on.

How many agree or disagree with a scientific theory is NOT how we determine scientific truth. It just doesn't work that way -no matter how often someone insists it does.

Even I, with my decidedly non-scientific brain, can broadly understand how science works. I actually admire the way scientists will ignore any other considerations (well, except the ones that are bordering on lunacy and the ones bought by corporations) and rip into someone else's work in an attempt to prove it "wrong" (I'm using plain English because I don't have a scientific vocabulary). Remember the claims about cold fusion some years ago? Snowball's chance in Hell that one, it was canned very quickly.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

If Evolution is a real force, like gravity, why hasn't life evolved on Mars?

 

[Bonzi]

Wow this thread is old !

I never knew Mani had a serious side....

 

[onefour1]

 

[IsaacNewton]

Intelligent Design is neither intelligent nor does it need be mentioned in the same sentence as evolution which has a Mt Everest of evidence supporting it.

ID is just another rat's maze created by pop 'theologians' in the US to try to push back the tide of evidence against their beliefs. It is in the vein of Fake Fox News which is pure propaganda disguised as news.

Hardcore conservatives in the US lose all the arguments in the public square so they have embraced creating lies and then building scaffolding under those lies so they can compete with facts in the public's eye. Cons can't just espouse what they believe anymore as it doesn't work with enough of the public. So they lie, use innuendo, false equivalencies, a long list of fallacies, the never ending 'yeah but someone else did this so it's ok for us to do that'.

And the embracing of lies and cheating has been working for them, people vote for the lie if it is packaged right. But a platform built on lies is like a stage built on toothpicks. At some point the entire thing will collapse under it's own weight.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If Evolution is a real force, like gravity

Evolution is not a "force". Dude...

 

[Bonzi]

Welcome back

 

[manifold]

Wow this thread is old !

I never knew Mani had a serious side....

I used to, but this place beat it out of me.

 

[Taz]

Is intelligent design merely an abstact concept or is there an official, documented dogma that articulates precisely what a believer in I.D. actually believes? If it is merely an abstract concept, how can it really contradict the theory of evolution? Could not the evolutionary process be the foundation of such an intelligent design? The cynic in me views it as a largely failed politcal ploy, concocted by science-hating creationists, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

Intelligent design assumes that some THING, usually a God, arranged for the beginning of life and has had a hand in other steps along the way. The theory discounts that pure random chance lead to life and lead to man.

It's not random chance, never heard of aliens? Life is everywhere, not chance.

 

[ding]

Is intelligent design merely an abstact concept or is there an official, documented dogma that articulates precisely what a believer in I.D. actually believes? If it is merely an abstract concept, how can it really contradict the theory of evolution? Could not the evolutionary process be the foundation of such an intelligent design? The cynic in me views it as a largely failed politcal ploy, concocted by science-hating creationists, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

Yes. My thoughts are you are wrong.

 

[ding]

Wow this thread is old !

I never knew Mani had a serious side....

I did, but then again, I'm chaos and chaos knows everything.

 

[ding]

Is intelligent design merely an abstact concept or is there an official, documented dogma that articulates precisely what a believer in I.D. actually believes? If it is merely an abstract concept, how can it really contradict the theory of evolution? Could not the evolutionary process be the foundation of such an intelligent design? The cynic in me views it as a largely failed politcal ploy, concocted by science-hating creationists, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

Intelligent design assumes that some THING, usually a God, arranged for the beginning of life and has had a hand in other steps along the way. The theory discounts that pure random chance lead to life and lead to man.

It's not random chance, never heard of aliens? Life is everywhere, not chance.

Actually, life isn't everywhere. In fact, life, is pretty freaking rare. If all the sand in the Gobi desert represented all the matter and energy in the universe, one grain of sand would represent all the life in the universe. That's how rare life is in the universe.

With that said, it does appear that we live in a universe where the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, beings that know and create will eventually arise.

 

[ding]

Wow this thread is old !

I never knew Mani had a serious side....

I used to, but this place beat it out of me.

Welcome back. Do you have an encore planned or was the last one it?