CDZ Innocent until proven guilty.

[MarcATL]

Seems every post you make has a racial element. As I said the poor not just blacks are victims of the system and until all of us recognize what the problem is nothing will be solved. There is one race the human race with a lot of variation when all the variations come together to make demands it is powerful while separate groups demands are weak.

"Seems" being the operative word here.

However...

1. Do you agree or disagree that racism/bigotry is America's original sin?
2. Do you agree or disagree that America hasn't fully dealt w/the issue of race?

These are the base questions that needs to be answered before you & I can communicate effectively.

 

[task0778]

There have been several democrats who have specifically said that a woman who accuses a man of sexual misconduct should be believed. That is guilty until proven innocent, which for the democrats applies to all men unless of course they are democrats like that Ellison guy in Minnesota who is a democrat running to be the next state AG.

Re the innocent black guys killed by police, I think it most cases the cop doesn't shoot somebody unless he/she feels threatened. It isn't a question of innocence or guilt, it's a question of self-defense. Cops do not decide innocence or guilt, their job is to stop any violence and investigate what happened and arrest anybody who ought to be arrested. Sometimes it turns out that the cop acted inappropriately and should not have shot the person, nobody is saying in every case the shooting was justified. But I would say that most conservatives do not approve of unwarranted police violence against blacks, that's a pretty stupid thing to say.

I don’t think saying that believing abused women is the same as convicting the accused. When you look at the massive amounts of women who are victims of sexual assault/harassment and the large percentage that do not come forward for fear of being shamed and not believed then maybe you can understand why many want to change the status quo. Instead of immediately doubting abuse victims and challenging them to prove their claims what if we fostered a more open environment and treated them with support in the process of them telling their stories.

I don’t think anybody is pushing to convict the accused without due process but you have to admitt there is a problem with intimidation towards the abused. Do you have any productive ideas that may help?

Denying Judge Kavanaugh the appointment to the SCOTUS is pretty close to the same as convicting him in a court of law as far as the consequences go. Are you trying to say that for the reasons you stated it is okay to suspend the normal rules of law and the presumption of innocence should be pre-empted? If you're not saying that, then what other status quo are you referring to? Nobody is suggesting that we should immediately doubt the accusation of any alleged abuse or assault victim, or do you propose that any such accusation should be accepted at face value? With no facts, no proof, no substantiation? Really? How can you accept such claims as true?

It sure looks to me like the Left is definitely pushing to convict Kavanaugh without due process and believe every word Ford says against him. True, it's not a legal conviction, but you have to admit that if not confirmed his judicial career is over and he will have to live under the cloud of suspicion for the rest of his life, as will his family. That's just not right, what if it was you going up for a promotion and somebody comes forward and accuses you of sexual misconduct 36 years ago with nothing at all to back it up. Any job at all, which is probably just as important to you as this SCOTUS position is to Kavanaugh. And your boss says sorry, I can't promote you. What if it's your father, brother, husband, son? How are you going to feel about that?

We've got a serious problem in this country when it comes to sexual misconduct. I don't have much in the way of productive ideas that could help, maybe teaching everyone in school from jr high on up that such behavior cannot be tolerated. Girls have got to be encouraged to say something to somebody, cuz if you don't then the perp will probably do it again to somebody else. BUT - we cannot change the basic, underlying principle of justice in this country. Which is that we do not convict somebody in a court of law or in the court of public opinion without reason or cause. The day we start believing somebody's unfounded accusation against somebody else is the first step down the road to anarchy. One of the primary functions of gov't at every level is to protect our rights, and if we get to the point where innocent people are denied their rights to a fair hearing/trial then we got ourselves one very big problem.

 

[Slade3200]

There have been several democrats who have specifically said that a woman who accuses a man of sexual misconduct should be believed. That is guilty until proven innocent, which for the democrats applies to all men unless of course they are democrats like that Ellison guy in Minnesota who is a democrat running to be the next state AG.

Re the innocent black guys killed by police, I think it most cases the cop doesn't shoot somebody unless he/she feels threatened. It isn't a question of innocence or guilt, it's a question of self-defense. Cops do not decide innocence or guilt, their job is to stop any violence and investigate what happened and arrest anybody who ought to be arrested. Sometimes it turns out that the cop acted inappropriately and should not have shot the person, nobody is saying in every case the shooting was justified. But I would say that most conservatives do not approve of unwarranted police violence against blacks, that's a pretty stupid thing to say.

I don’t think saying that believing abused women is the same as convicting the accused. When you look at the massive amounts of women who are victims of sexual assault/harassment and the large percentage that do not come forward for fear of being shamed and not believed then maybe you can understand why many want to change the status quo. Instead of immediately doubting abuse victims and challenging them to prove their claims what if we fostered a more open environment and treated them with support in the process of them telling their stories.

I don’t think anybody is pushing to convict the accused without due process but you have to admitt there is a problem with intimidation towards the abused. Do you have any productive ideas that may help?

Denying Judge Kavanaugh the appointment to the SCOTUS is pretty close to the same as convicting him in a court of law as far as the consequences go. Are you trying to say that for the reasons you stated it is okay to suspend the normal rules of law and the presumption of innocence should be pre-empted? If you're not saying that, then what other status quo are you referring to? Nobody is suggesting that we should immediately doubt the accusation of any alleged abuse or assault victim, or do you propose that any such accusation should be accepted at face value? With no facts, no proof, no substantiation? Really? How can you accept such claims as true?

It sure looks to me like the Left is definitely pushing to convict Kavanaugh without due process and believe every word Ford says against him. True, it's not a legal conviction, but you have to admit that if not confirmed his judicial career is over and he will have to live under the cloud of suspicion for the rest of his life, as will his family. That's just not right, what if it was you going up for a promotion and somebody comes forward and accuses you of sexual misconduct 36 years ago with nothing at all to back it up. Any job at all, which is probably just as important to you as this SCOTUS position is to Kavanaugh. And your boss says sorry, I can't promote you. What if it's your father, brother, husband, son? How are you going to feel about that?

We've got a serious problem in this country when it comes to sexual misconduct. I don't have much in the way of productive ideas that could help, maybe teaching everyone in school from jr high on up that such behavior cannot be tolerated. Girls have got to be encouraged to say something to somebody, cuz if you don't then the perp will probably do it again to somebody else. BUT - we cannot change the basic, underlying principle of justice in this country. Which is that we do not convict somebody in a court of law or in the court of public opinion without reason or cause. The day we start believing somebody's unfounded accusation against somebody else is the first step down the road to anarchy. One of the primary functions of gov't at every level is to protect our rights, and if we get to the point where innocent people are denied their rights to a fair hearing/trial then we got ourselves one very big problem.

So far the Left has called for a hearing and an investigation. What part of that makes you conclude that they were pushing to skip due process and convict Kavanaugh.

Now look at the other side where many republicans didn’t want to delay, didn’t want a hearing, didn’t want an investigation and just wanted to vote. Where is the due process in that?

 

[oldsoul]

"Innocent until proven guily is for Criminal Charges, NOT confirmation hearings/job interviews.

If you heard from credible friends (or Yale Grads), that the woman you were considering for baby sitter had molested 3 other children, would you hire her?

No, not send her to jail, hire her.
`

Just to clarify, Is it then ok to smear her character on Facebook( AKA publicly)? That's what is being done to Kavanaugh. His character is being publicly smeared because of a 30+ year old allegation that has NO EVIDENCE. Is Mrs. Ford correct? She may be, I don't know, Bret may very well have done it. Unfortunately, short of time-travel, we will never know, because there is no evidence. Therefore, should we hold it against him? I say no, what do you say?

The Kavanaugh HEARING is a PUBLIC/National issue. On TV.... not a baby sitter affair.

I want to keep this CDZ, but we have to have some reasonable/analagous comparisons here.
thx

If you do not see the clear comparison I laid out, I do not know how to make it more clear. So, is it ok, in your opinion, to publicly smear her via Facebook, with no further evidence than that of "credible friends"?

 

[oldsoul]

What is your opinion of the allegations leveled by Karen Monahan? Do you care as much about her as you do about the "...innocent blacks that have been killed by police"? Are you at least consistent?

I don't see what an alleged sexual case has to do w/police brutality.

What's the consistency there?

But to answer your red herring question, my opinion is that I look forward to the facts found in the investigation that Keith Ellison, himself, requested conducted.

Whatever comes from that investigation where the facts are searched and discovered, will be fine with me.

Is that your position as well?

The consistency, or lack thereof, is that most people have to google Karen's name to even know what I am asking(I have no idea if this includes you or not). Yet, one need only to turn on the TV to hear about alleged Police brutality. Well, at least until the Kavanaugh thing came along. Additionally, nearly everyone knows who Christine Ford is, and many think she should be believed (without any evidence, or even a corroborating witness), yet most people want to wait and see what the investigation finds when it comes to Karen. Do you not agree that there seems to be a lack of consistency there? What about the times where Police are brutally attacked? Any consistency there? I'm not seeing it.

Don't get me wrong, when police unlawfully shoot, or otherwise attack ANYONE, they should be held to account. Should the opposite not hold as well? Even in the "court of public opinion"? If not, where does that leave us? Would that not mean that the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" is, indeed, under attack?

 

[task0778]

So far the Left has called for a hearing and an investigation. What part of that makes you conclude that they were pushing to skip due process and convict Kavanaugh.

Now look at the other side where many republicans didn’t want to delay, didn’t want a hearing, didn’t want an investigation and just wanted to vote. Where is the due process in that?

Maybe it's the part where many of them were saying on TV that we should believe all women accusers. That's not innocent until proven guilty but rather the reverse. Maybe it's the part where they deliberately withheld the allegation until the last possible minute. There's already been hearings and investigations, this isn't about justice, this is about pure politics.

As I said, there already were hearings and investigations, from the 6 FBI background checks to the Senate investigators who have already checked out Ford's allegations and found NOTHING to substantiate it. So how long do we continue this farce? Let me tell you something about due process, it's not supposed to be an ongoing, never-ending process. Ever hear the saying justice delayed is justice denied? We've already had due process up the ying-yang, it's time to vote one way or the other as soon as the FBI is done.

 

[Slade3200]

So far the Left has called for a hearing and an investigation. What part of that makes you conclude that they were pushing to skip due process and convict Kavanaugh.

Now look at the other side where many republicans didn’t want to delay, didn’t want a hearing, didn’t want an investigation and just wanted to vote. Where is the due process in that?

Maybe it's the part where many of them were saying on TV that we should believe all women accusers. That's not innocent until proven guilty but rather the reverse. Maybe it's the part where they deliberately withheld the allegation until the last possible minute. There's already been hearings and investigations, this isn't about justice, this is about pure politics.

As I said, there already were hearings and investigations, from the 6 FBI background checks to the Senate investigators who have already checked out Ford's allegations and found NOTHING to substantiate it. So how long do we continue this farce? Let me tell you something about due process, it's not supposed to be an ongoing, never-ending process. Ever hear the saying justice delayed is justice denied? We've already had due process up the ying-yang, it's time to vote one way or the other as soon as the FBI is done.

You honestly think that partisan sentate investigators are sufficient? That’s fine but in a case like this I think a more professional approach is warranted

 

[task0778]

So far the Left has called for a hearing and an investigation. What part of that makes you conclude that they were pushing to skip due process and convict Kavanaugh.

Now look at the other side where many republicans didn’t want to delay, didn’t want a hearing, didn’t want an investigation and just wanted to vote. Where is the due process in that?

Maybe it's the part where many of them were saying on TV that we should believe all women accusers. That's not innocent until proven guilty but rather the reverse. Maybe it's the part where they deliberately withheld the allegation until the last possible minute. There's already been hearings and investigations, this isn't about justice, this is about pure politics.

As I said, there already were hearings and investigations, from the 6 FBI background checks to the Senate investigators who have already checked out Ford's allegations and found NOTHING to substantiate it. So how long do we continue this farce? Let me tell you something about due process, it's not supposed to be an ongoing, never-ending process. Ever hear the saying justice delayed is justice denied? We've already had due process up the ying-yang, it's time to vote one way or the other as soon as the FBI is done.

You honestly think that partisan senate investigators are sufficient? That’s fine but in a case like this I think a more professional approach is warranted

The Democrats could have been included in the Senate investigation but deliberately chose not to participate. And they did that for one reason and one reason only: so they could push for an FBI investigation and thereby delay the vote. And you know damn well that is the truth. Since when did ANYONE associated with the Ford investigation step up and say they didn't talk to me or got what I said wrong? Hmmm? Didn't happen, did it? To this very minute NOBODY has come forward and corroborated her story. So yeah, I think that's sufficient. In view of recent developments with the Clinton email investigation and the Trump collusion investigation, yeah I got some reservations about their "more professional" approach.

 

[abu afak]

If you do not see the clear comparison I laid out, I do not know how to make it more clear. So, is it ok, in your opinion, to publicly smear her via Facebook, with no further evidence than that of "credible friends"?

Actually, I pointed out why they were Invalid with 100% Clarity.

1. "Innocent until proven Guilty" is for Criminal Trials, and does NOT apply to Hearings or job interviews. Not even Civil Lawsuits for that matter.

2. this is a Public and Televised National Hearing, and people can and have come forward.
That's what happens and has happened.

Debunking both of your comparisons.
I'm sure you understand but you persisted.
`

 

[Leo123]

"Innocent until proven guily" is for Criminal Charges, NOT confirmation hearings/job interviews.

If you heard from credible friends (or Yale Grads), that the woman you were considering for baby sitter had molested 3 other children, would you hire her?

No, not send her to jail, hire her.
`

That is a bad comparison because none of Ford's 'credible' friends or anyone else remembers the incident.

 

[abu afak]

That is a bad comparison because none of Ford's 'credible' friends or anyone else remembers the incident.

And that also has Nothing to do with him MIsappropriating a Criminal standard to a Public hearing.

Judges can, and have been, turned down without any Criminal culpability.

your take is 100% as misplaced.

And aside from that... Kavanagh has already apparently LIED Under oath to Congress about his drinking habits.
So say many Yale classmates.
People are oft nailed for Lying under oath, or to the FBI, not for committing the orignal crime under consideration.

Bill Clinton was impeached (not jailed) for Lying, not sex, and not the original charge: Whitewater.
`

 

[miketx]

I wish Republicans and other assorted self-proclaimed conservatives had a scintilla of the amount of care for innocent blacks that have been killed by police as they have for this grown-up prep-kid Kavanaught that they've been weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth over.

Blacks need to learn what stop resisting and show me your hands and get out of the car mean.

 

[Papageorgio]

Another gift to the colonies from Britain.

I have seen comments on here that it is under threat in the US.

What say you ? Is it under threat and if so is it worth defending ?

The court of public opinion is the new standard. Facts, evidence are no longer needed.

 

[Freiheit]

Seems every post you make has a racial element. As I said the poor not just blacks are victims of the system and until all of us recognize what the problem is nothing will be solved. There is one race the human race with a lot of variation when all the variations come together to make demands it is powerful while separate groups demands are weak.

"Seems" being the operative word here.

However...

1. Do you agree or disagree that racism/bigotry is America's original sin?
2. Do you agree or disagree that America hasn't fully dealt w/the issue of race?

These are the base questions that needs to be answered before you & I can communicate effectively.

I think race has been used to divide and conquer the population in America. Classism is the problem not race. Racial issues are a red herring and will never be dealt with. Classism is where the problem is and until that is dealt with there will be strife.

 

[Slade3200]

So far the Left has called for a hearing and an investigation. What part of that makes you conclude that they were pushing to skip due process and convict Kavanaugh.

Now look at the other side where many republicans didn’t want to delay, didn’t want a hearing, didn’t want an investigation and just wanted to vote. Where is the due process in that?

Maybe it's the part where many of them were saying on TV that we should believe all women accusers. That's not innocent until proven guilty but rather the reverse. Maybe it's the part where they deliberately withheld the allegation until the last possible minute. There's already been hearings and investigations, this isn't about justice, this is about pure politics.

As I said, there already were hearings and investigations, from the 6 FBI background checks to the Senate investigators who have already checked out Ford's allegations and found NOTHING to substantiate it. So how long do we continue this farce? Let me tell you something about due process, it's not supposed to be an ongoing, never-ending process. Ever hear the saying justice delayed is justice denied? We've already had due process up the ying-yang, it's time to vote one way or the other as soon as the FBI is done.

You honestly think that partisan senate investigators are sufficient? That’s fine but in a case like this I think a more professional approach is warranted

The Democrats could have been included in the Senate investigation but deliberately chose not to participate. And they did that for one reason and one reason only: so they could push for an FBI investigation and thereby delay the vote. And you know damn well that is the truth. Since when did ANYONE associated with the Ford investigation step up and say they didn't talk to me or got what I said wrong? Hmmm? Didn't happen, did it? To this very minute NOBODY has come forward and corroborated her story. So yeah, I think that's sufficient. In view of recent developments with the Clinton email investigation and the Trump collusion investigation, yeah I got some reservations about their "more professional" approach.

I never said the Dems weren’t playing politics. They absolutely are. So are the republicans. Thankfully the fair minded have found middle ground and the right steps are being taken

 

[2aguy]

Another gift to the colonies from Britain.

I have seen comments on here that it is under threat in the US.

What say you ? Is it under threat and if so is it worth defending ?

Yes...the democrats don't want their enemies to have that Right.... and yes, it is worth defending...

 

[2aguy]

"Innocent until proven guily" is for Criminal Charges, NOT confirmation hearings/job interviews.

If you heard from credible friends (or Yale Grads), that the woman you were considering for baby sitter had molested 3 other children, would you hire her?

No, not send her to jail, hire her.
`

Nope....any statement made to the committee is under threat of perjury and up to 5 years in prison...sorry, it is more than just a job interview, you don't go to jail for lying at a job interview....

 

[2aguy]

Another gift to the colonies from Britain.

I have seen comments on here that it is under threat in the US.

What say you ? Is it under threat and if so is it worth defending ?

No, it's not under threat.

But most conservatives have contempt for the doctrine, particularly with regard to undocumented immigrants.

Wrong, illegal aliens get their day in court, and the presumption of innocence in a court of law.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Another gift to the colonies from Britain.

I have seen comments on here that it is under threat in the US.

What say you ? Is it under threat and if so is it worth defending ?

Yes...the democrats don't want their enemies to have that Right.... and yes, it is worth defending...

That right doesnt seem to apply to Mrs Clinton though ?

 

[abu afak]

Nope....any statement made to the committee is under threat of perjury and up to 5 years in prison...sorry, it is more than just a job interview, you don't go to jail for lying at a job interview....

Which has NOTHING to do with whether Kavanagh has to be "Proven Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" to be Rejected.

He does NOT.
Many nominees have been rejected, not "Proven" anything.

YOU LOST.
But you persist depite the decorum that should be accorded here.
`