Immigration Reform:

[Luddly Neddite]

Allow States to protect their borders and citizens from illegal immigration instead of suing them.

Already being done by the Obama administration. Check the history ... Bush, Kyl, McCain all refused then-Gov Napalitano's repeated requests to increase Border Patrol and refused to deport. As we all know, President Obama has deported more than any other president. And, as we all know, President Obama has increased Border Patrol more than any other president.

1070 is redundant, does nothing to help anyone but the KKK. We all know that too.

12 million illegal got across the border without showing their ID because they were running through the desert. There is vigorous ID check at the border and still 12 million got in without showing ID

Not even close to reality.

Why do we have to keep covering the same "disinformation" over and over again?

Because some people don't want FACTS. They want HATE so, instead of spreading FACTS, they spread HATE.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

While I like the tax idea that doesn't address people coming here and receiving medical benifits or other welfare. Not to mention voting.

ObamaCare does.

Thanks, Mr. President.

 

[UseCaution]

Secure the border first...then we'll discuss immigration reform.

Screw that! Make it so business get an eVfy. login into an account and record active employee! The system will alert to dupes across the list. Come tax time no write-off for unVfy. send bill for all over claim on full employee pay! And start dealing now with illegals.

 

[Intense]

Just wondering how many Decades we are going to stick with that 12 Million number.

I wonder too, what the real number is in NY alone.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Just wondering how many Decades we are going to stick with that 12 Million number.

I wonder too, what the real number is in NY alone.

No where near that many and hasn't been for a long time.

e-verify is a good idea. Makes the US take responsibility for inviting theme here.

Then, stop buying their drugs.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Secure the border first...then we'll discuss immigration reform.

​

This is step 1 in 'VIGOROUSLY checking ID's at the border'.

 

[AVG-JOE]

What ID are you blathering about which is in the possession of every potential immigrant, is eminently reliable, and contains the information required?

Same one they use today - a passport issued by the country of citizenship.

 

[UseCaution]

1. Change the Federal Income Tax Code to read:

>18% on personal income with each Citizen receiving the same $45,000 deduction.
>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.​

2. VIGOROUSLY Check ID's at the border and make sure non-citizens understand that they pay 18% on all income, there is a path to citizenship, and those caught working for ca$h, not paying their bills or convicted of felony fuck-ups will be banished for life.











Fair and simple taxes remains step 1 folks.

How does this address businesses portion of general taxation funds required to subsidize continuing to build their business again on minimum wage workers. The numbers don't add at 45,000, I feel there's a possibility if we lowered it to 25,000 maybe. Our basic community family standards are education for the kids, or babysitting why they work. Plus, The overall impact cost of emergency don't deny service laws for band aid will always be disproportionate to low wage workers taxation. And generally the poor spend their money on food and rent. Which in itself does not inject funds in taxation to compensate for the direct benefit the businesses get from taxpayer funds providing these low wage workers from out of town.

25k deduction / 45k deduction - whatever. The point is to have a tax code that is simple enough to be spelled out in a message board post and the same for everyone.

Giving congress the power to tax us differently, using complicated rules and formulas for prescribed favoritism, was a big mistake. Huge.

I was only addressing items one and two collectively. I was trying to point out that a flat tax does not address the complicated situation.
And if you ever want to modify to a flat tax, it would have to be over the two generation of current retirement boomers, say 70 years into the future. Long time to wait.

One major flaw in flat tax is mortgage interest. Example, the couple at the best practice scenario now is to afford the largest home possible as well as a second home in retirement planning scenario. The devastating effect with this on local taxation would instantly make a crisis in the real estate market as to value and local state tax revenue.

Another major flaw so much of the businesses that are sole proprietor are designed not to be a profit at the end of the calendar year.

So comes to individual taxation, it’s unequal if a single person only gets a deduction for gross income of 25 for 45k. As a couple with two or three kids can be all on the payroll as an employee to reduce the tax liability effectively given the family up to five deductions.

This is a simplified scenario.

 

[Missourian]

Secure the border first...then we'll discuss immigration reform.

​

This is step 1 in 'VIGOROUSLY checking ID's at the border'.

That's a good start, but illegal immigration needs to be virtually zero.

Otherwise, IMO, immigration reform is an incentive to illegally entering the country.

 

[BillyV]

1. Change the Federal Income Tax Code to read:

>18% on personal income with each Citizen receiving the same $45,000 deduction.
>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.​

2. VIGOROUSLY Check ID's at the border and make sure non-citizens understand that they pay 18% on all income, there is a path to citizenship, and those caught working for ca$h, not paying their bills or convicted of felony fuck-ups will be banished for life.

Fair and simple taxes remains step 1 folks.

Great idea! Let’s punish capital-intensive businesses as part of tax “reform”. So now a company with 100 guys with shovels will be more tax efficient than one guy with a bulldozer, since the former gets a deduction for payroll for 100, and the latter gets nothing but a deduction for the one individual. How long would it be until we have companies providing digging services with thousands of employees with spoons!

Anyway, what exactly does tax reform have to do with immigration reform? As long as an immigrant is willing to pay his 18%, we open wide the border so he can supplant an American citizen’s job with impunity? Is that really the plan?

Unfortunately, “simple” and “fair” rarely go together. Fair taxation encompasses giving equal weight to various input costs so that the tax system does not favor one type of production (or type of employee) over another.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

1. Change the Federal Income Tax Code to read:

>18% on personal income with each Citizen receiving the same $45,000 deduction.
>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.​

2. VIGOROUSLY Check ID's at the border and make sure non-citizens understand that they pay 18% on all income, there is a path to citizenship, and those caught working for ca$h, not paying their bills or convicted of felony fuck-ups will be banished for life.











Fair and simple taxes remains step 1 folks.

>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.

Businesses can't deduct their supplies?

I agree, the depression caused by widespread business failures would cause massive attrition among illegals. US citizens would probably flee to other countries as well.

 

[UseCaution]

1. Change the Federal Income Tax Code to read:

>18% on personal income with each Citizen receiving the same $45,000 deduction.
>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.​

2. VIGOROUSLY Check ID's at the border and make sure non-citizens understand that they pay 18% on all income, there is a path to citizenship, and those caught working for ca$h, not paying their bills or convicted of felony fuck-ups will be banished for life.

Fair and simple taxes remains step 1 folks.

Great idea! Let’s punish capital-intensive businesses as part of tax “reform”. So now a company with 100 guys with shovels will be more tax efficient than one guy with a bulldozer, since the former gets a deduction for payroll for 100, and the latter gets nothing but a deduction for the one individual. How long would it be until we have companies providing digging services with thousands of employees with spoons!

Anyway, what exactly does tax reform have to do with immigration reform? As long as an immigrant is willing to pay his 18%, we open wide the border so he can supplant an American citizen’s job with impunity? Is that really the plan?

Unfortunately, “simple” and “fair” rarely go together. Fair taxation encompasses giving equal weight to various input costs so that the tax system does not favor one type of production (or type of employee) over another.

As I applaud your fair taxation encompassing viewpoint experience looking at the big picture. As for our current tax system is completely unequal in fairness and simply abusive and needs to be modified to encourage America first.

 

[AVG-JOE]

1. Change the Federal Income Tax Code to read:

>18% on personal income with each Citizen receiving the same $45,000 deduction.
>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.​

2. VIGOROUSLY Check ID's at the border and make sure non-citizens understand that they pay 18% on all income, there is a path to citizenship, and those caught working for ca$h, not paying their bills or convicted of felony fuck-ups will be banished for life.

Fair and simple taxes remains step 1 folks.

Great idea! Let’s punish capital-intensive businesses as part of tax “reform”. So now a company with 100 guys with shovels will be more tax efficient than one guy with a bulldozer, since the former gets a deduction for payroll for 100, and the latter gets nothing but a deduction for the one individual.
How long would it be until we have companies providing digging services with thousands of employees with spoons!

Anyway, what exactly does tax reform have to do with immigration reform? As long as an immigrant is willing to pay his 18%, we open wide the border so he can supplant an American citizen’s job with impunity? Is that really the plan?

Unfortunately, “simple” and “fair” rarely go together. Fair taxation encompasses giving equal weight to various input costs so that the tax system does not favor one type of production (or type of employee) over another.

What part of 'job creation' don't you understand?

Tell me again how its fair to custom design taxes for individuals and companies based on their ability to contribute to political campaigns...

Simple and fair means we all pay the same rate and get EXACTLY the same deduction.

Simple and fair means not making business decisions based on the tax implications of those decisions.

Tax reform is the necessary beginning. Until we have a clue as to what the tax base is actually worth, ALL other reform attempts are just wheels spinning in mud. The Constitution may be the blue-print, but the budget is the foundation upon which the entire government built. That's why congress not passing a budget in so many years is so frightening.

 

[Seawytch]

If people knew that they were turning in "illegals" that would just get taxed and not deported, folks might turn in more "illegals".

 

[AVG-JOE]

1. Change the Federal Income Tax Code to read:

>18% on personal income with each Citizen receiving the same $45,000 deduction.
>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.​

2. VIGOROUSLY Check ID's at the border and make sure non-citizens understand that they pay 18% on all income, there is a path to citizenship, and those caught working for ca$h, not paying their bills or convicted of felony fuck-ups will be banished for life.




Fair and simple taxes remains step 1 folks.

>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.

Businesses can't deduct their supplies?

I agree, the depression caused by widespread business failures would cause massive attrition among illegals. US citizens would probably flee to other countries as well.

The devil is in the details, Bro... Do you reckon a $25k deduction for "stuff" isn't enough? Don't forget that the tax is only 18 pennies on a dollar - those companies will still have an extremely certain 82 pennies of every dollar earned to plow back in to the business. "Certainty" is the key, no?

I certainly didn't carve the number in stone... the trick is to ensure that Exxon/Mobile, Inc. pays the same rate and has the same deductions as Mom/Pop, LLC.

Keep it simple / keep it fair.

If the government coffers over-flow and the debt is paid off, slide the percentage down to 15 for all and/or slide the deduction up to $35k for all.

Keep it simple / keep it fair / keep it consistent.

It's time to relieve congress of the power to customize taxes for the highest bidders.

 

[BillyV]

1. Change the Federal Income Tax Code to read:

>18% on personal income with each Citizen receiving the same $45,000 deduction.
>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.​

2. VIGOROUSLY Check ID's at the border and make sure non-citizens understand that they pay 18% on all income, there is a path to citizenship, and those caught working for ca$h, not paying their bills or convicted of felony fuck-ups will be banished for life.

Fair and simple taxes remains step 1 folks.

Great idea! Let’s punish capital-intensive businesses as part of tax “reform”. So now a company with 100 guys with shovels will be more tax efficient than one guy with a bulldozer, since the former gets a deduction for payroll for 100, and the latter gets nothing but a deduction for the one individual.
How long would it be until we have companies providing digging services with thousands of employees with spoons!

Anyway, what exactly does tax reform have to do with immigration reform? As long as an immigrant is willing to pay his 18%, we open wide the border so he can supplant an American citizen’s job with impunity? Is that really the plan?

Unfortunately, “simple” and “fair” rarely go together. Fair taxation encompasses giving equal weight to various input costs so that the tax system does not favor one type of production (or type of employee) over another.

What part of 'job creation' don't you understand?

Tell me again how its fair to custom design taxes for individuals and companies based on their ability to contribute to political campaigns...

Simple and fair means we all pay the same rate and get EXACTLY the same deduction.

Simple and fair means not making business decisions based on the tax implications of those decisions.

Tax reform is the necessary beginning. Until we have a clue as to what the tax base is actually worth, ALL other reform attempts are just wheels spinning in mud. The Constitution may be the blue-print, but the budget is the foundation upon which the entire government built. That's why congress not passing a budget in so many years is so frightening.

Simple is all you're offering; "fair" does not include favoring labor over capital. "Job creation", while a beneficial side effect, is not the goal of capitalism; efficiency in production is the goal. That is how wealth is created.

While I agree that there are abuses in the awarding of tax benefits, your approach is dramatically more unfair and inefficient, and flies in the face of basic common sense. We have a system by which business income is determined, and it includes all inputs to production; machinery, plant, raw materials, marketing, finance, all play a role and deserve equal consideration as part of the cost of the product or service produced. You would throw out all of those costs and tax any revenue created without significant amounts of labor. Let's assume we have a business that sells $1 million worth of widgets produced in a factory and the labor cost is $100,000, and their net profit is 5%. Under your system, they would be taxed at 18% on $875,000, or $157,500, but their net is only $50,000. That factory would never be built under that scenario. That doesn't seem to be an economically sound tax regime, nor would it aid job creation.

No, the beginning for tax reform is not to throw out hundreds of years of experience and knowledge about what, in fact, comprises business income. The beginning is to look at credits and deductions that do not align with normal business income principles and decide whether or not those tax advantages are fair or unfair, and then to phase them out slowly to avoid inevitable unintended consequences. For instance, is it fair to offer credits for alternative energy like solar and wind? Environmentalists would say yes, because it will ultimately lead to cleaner and renewable energy which the current economics do not support; others would say it's just a gift to the "green" crowd from a liberal administration. There are no simple answers to these issues and they certainly cannot be solved by your one line tax "plan." Sorry.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

1. Change the Federal Income Tax Code to read:

>18% on personal income with each Citizen receiving the same $45,000 deduction.
>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.​

2. VIGOROUSLY Check ID's at the border and make sure non-citizens understand that they pay 18% on all income, there is a path to citizenship, and those caught working for ca$h, not paying their bills or convicted of felony fuck-ups will be banished for life.




Fair and simple taxes remains step 1 folks.

>18% on all business income with $25,000 + payroll as the only deductions.

Businesses can't deduct their supplies?

I agree, the depression caused by widespread business failures would cause massive attrition among illegals. US citizens would probably flee to other countries as well.

The devil is in the details, Bro... Do you reckon a $25k deduction for "stuff" isn't enough? Don't forget that the tax is only 18 pennies on a dollar - those companies will still have an extremely certain 82 pennies of every dollar earned to plow back in to the business. "Certainty" is the key, no?

I certainly didn't carve the number in stone... the trick is to ensure that Exxon/Mobile, Inc. pays the same rate and has the same deductions as Mom/Pop, LLC.

Keep it simple / keep it fair.

If the government coffers over-flow and the debt is paid off, slide the percentage down to 15 for all and/or slide the deduction up to $35k for all.

Keep it simple / keep it fair / keep it consistent.

It's time to relieve congress of the power to customize taxes for the highest bidders.

The devil is in the details, Bro... Do you reckon a $25k deduction for "stuff" isn't enough?

Yes, I reckon $25k isn't enough .

I certainly didn't carve the number in stone... the trick is to ensure that Exxon/Mobile, Inc. pays the same rate and has the same deductions as Mom/Pop, LLC.

In FY2011, Exxon spent about $307 billion to get the oil they sold.
They should pay taxes on all their oil revenue without deducting the $307 billion they spent to get it?
An 18% revenue tax when most companies have a profit margin much lower than 18% is a bad idea.

If the government coffers over-flow

Governments generally bring in less money during a depression.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Great idea! Let’s punish capital-intensive businesses as part of tax “reform”. So now a company with 100 guys with shovels will be more tax efficient than one guy with a bulldozer, since the former gets a deduction for payroll for 100, and the latter gets nothing but a deduction for the one individual.
How long would it be until we have companies providing digging services with thousands of employees with spoons!

Anyway, what exactly does tax reform have to do with immigration reform? As long as an immigrant is willing to pay his 18%, we open wide the border so he can supplant an American citizen’s job with impunity? Is that really the plan?

Unfortunately, “simple” and “fair” rarely go together. Fair taxation encompasses giving equal weight to various input costs so that the tax system does not favor one type of production (or type of employee) over another.

What part of 'job creation' don't you understand?

Tell me again how its fair to custom design taxes for individuals and companies based on their ability to contribute to political campaigns...

Simple and fair means we all pay the same rate and get EXACTLY the same deduction.

Simple and fair means not making business decisions based on the tax implications of those decisions.

Tax reform is the necessary beginning. Until we have a clue as to what the tax base is actually worth, ALL other reform attempts are just wheels spinning in mud. The Constitution may be the blue-print, but the budget is the foundation upon which the entire government built. That's why congress not passing a budget in so many years is so frightening.

Simple is all you're offering; "fair" does not include favoring labor over capital. "Job creation", while a beneficial side effect, is not the goal of capitalism; efficiency in production is the goal. That is how wealth is created.

While I agree that there are abuses in the awarding of tax benefits, your approach is dramatically more unfair and inefficient, and flies in the face of basic common sense. We have a system by which business income is determined, and it includes all inputs to production; machinery, plant, raw materials, marketing, finance, all play a role and deserve equal consideration as part of the cost of the product or service produced. You would throw out all of those costs and tax any revenue created without significant amounts of labor. Let's assume we have a business that sells $1 million worth of widgets produced in a factory and the labor cost is $100,000, and their net profit is 5%. Under your system, they would be taxed at 18% on $875,000, or $157,500, but their net is only $50,000. That factory would never be built under that scenario. That doesn't seem to be an economically sound tax regime, nor would it aid job creation.

No, the beginning for tax reform is not to throw out hundreds of years of experience and knowledge about what, in fact, comprises business income. The beginning is to look at credits and deductions that do not align with normal business income principles and decide whether or not those tax advantages are fair or unfair, and then to phase them out slowly to avoid inevitable unintended consequences. For instance, is it fair to offer credits for alternative energy like solar and wind? Environmentalists would say yes, because it will ultimately lead to cleaner and renewable energy which the current economics do not support; others would say it's just a gift to the "green" crowd from a liberal administration. There are no simple answers to these issues and they certainly cannot be solved by your one line tax "plan." Sorry.

Right now businesses pay upwards of 40% on all the income their lawyers and accountants can't find a legal way to exempt and corruption is running rampant while spending millions on lobbying to buy tax favoritism from congress.

18% with a single deduction + payroll will allow businesses to stop spending so much on accountants, lawyers and lobbyists instead of expanding their businesses through good old fashioned hard work.

Stop focusing on the trees and look at the fucking forest, Bud.

 

[BillyV]

What part of 'job creation' don't you understand?

Tell me again how its fair to custom design taxes for individuals and companies based on their ability to contribute to political campaigns...

Simple and fair means we all pay the same rate and get EXACTLY the same deduction.

Simple and fair means not making business decisions based on the tax implications of those decisions.

Tax reform is the necessary beginning. Until we have a clue as to what the tax base is actually worth, ALL other reform attempts are just wheels spinning in mud. The Constitution may be the blue-print, but the budget is the foundation upon which the entire government built. That's why congress not passing a budget in so many years is so frightening.

Simple is all you're offering; "fair" does not include favoring labor over capital. "Job creation", while a beneficial side effect, is not the goal of capitalism; efficiency in production is the goal. That is how wealth is created.

While I agree that there are abuses in the awarding of tax benefits, your approach is dramatically more unfair and inefficient, and flies in the face of basic common sense. We have a system by which business income is determined, and it includes all inputs to production; machinery, plant, raw materials, marketing, finance, all play a role and deserve equal consideration as part of the cost of the product or service produced. You would throw out all of those costs and tax any revenue created without significant amounts of labor. Let's assume we have a business that sells $1 million worth of widgets produced in a factory and the labor cost is $100,000, and their net profit is 5%. Under your system, they would be taxed at 18% on $875,000, or $157,500, but their net is only $50,000. That factory would never be built under that scenario. That doesn't seem to be an economically sound tax regime, nor would it aid job creation.

No, the beginning for tax reform is not to throw out hundreds of years of experience and knowledge about what, in fact, comprises business income. The beginning is to look at credits and deductions that do not align with normal business income principles and decide whether or not those tax advantages are fair or unfair, and then to phase them out slowly to avoid inevitable unintended consequences. For instance, is it fair to offer credits for alternative energy like solar and wind? Environmentalists would say yes, because it will ultimately lead to cleaner and renewable energy which the current economics do not support; others would say it's just a gift to the "green" crowd from a liberal administration. There are no simple answers to these issues and they certainly cannot be solved by your one line tax "plan." Sorry.

Right now businesses pay upwards of 40% on all the income their lawyers and accountants can't find a legal way to exempt and corruption is running rampant while spending millions on lobbying to buy tax favoritism from congress.

18% with a single deduction + payroll will allow businesses to stop spending so much on accountants, lawyers and lobbyists instead of expanding their businesses through good old fashioned hard work.

Stop focusing on the trees and look at the fucking forest, Bud.

Maybe we're not on the same page. Your plan as stated is to tax all income that can't be offset by payroll and an additional $25,000. I have already provided an example of a company with $1 million in sales, $100,000 in payroll and $50,000 in net income after all business expenses (because you know, they have to buy raw materials, equipment, rent or buy a building, etc), and you want to tax that company $157,500, even though they only made $50,000. Current law would tax them at 35% of $50,000 ($17,500). Under your system as I understand it, that company will cease to exist. Now maybe you really mean that we will tax business income as currently defined at 18% (as a flat tax) and do away with preferential credits and deductions that are in addition to what would be allowed under normal business income and expense principles; that is a position that could be debated. Or maybe you don't understand how our current system works. In either case, your forest won't grow trees under your tax plan as stated. If I have misunderstood your OP, please elaborate (without resorting to insults would be preferred, but either way).

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What part of 'job creation' don't you understand?

Tell me again how its fair to custom design taxes for individuals and companies based on their ability to contribute to political campaigns...

Simple and fair means we all pay the same rate and get EXACTLY the same deduction.

Simple and fair means not making business decisions based on the tax implications of those decisions.

Tax reform is the necessary beginning. Until we have a clue as to what the tax base is actually worth, ALL other reform attempts are just wheels spinning in mud. The Constitution may be the blue-print, but the budget is the foundation upon which the entire government built. That's why congress not passing a budget in so many years is so frightening.

Simple is all you're offering; "fair" does not include favoring labor over capital. "Job creation", while a beneficial side effect, is not the goal of capitalism; efficiency in production is the goal. That is how wealth is created.

While I agree that there are abuses in the awarding of tax benefits, your approach is dramatically more unfair and inefficient, and flies in the face of basic common sense. We have a system by which business income is determined, and it includes all inputs to production; machinery, plant, raw materials, marketing, finance, all play a role and deserve equal consideration as part of the cost of the product or service produced. You would throw out all of those costs and tax any revenue created without significant amounts of labor. Let's assume we have a business that sells $1 million worth of widgets produced in a factory and the labor cost is $100,000, and their net profit is 5%. Under your system, they would be taxed at 18% on $875,000, or $157,500, but their net is only $50,000. That factory would never be built under that scenario. That doesn't seem to be an economically sound tax regime, nor would it aid job creation.

No, the beginning for tax reform is not to throw out hundreds of years of experience and knowledge about what, in fact, comprises business income. The beginning is to look at credits and deductions that do not align with normal business income principles and decide whether or not those tax advantages are fair or unfair, and then to phase them out slowly to avoid inevitable unintended consequences. For instance, is it fair to offer credits for alternative energy like solar and wind? Environmentalists would say yes, because it will ultimately lead to cleaner and renewable energy which the current economics do not support; others would say it's just a gift to the "green" crowd from a liberal administration. There are no simple answers to these issues and they certainly cannot be solved by your one line tax "plan." Sorry.

Right now businesses pay upwards of 40% on all the income their lawyers and accountants can't find a legal way to exempt and corruption is running rampant while spending millions on lobbying to buy tax favoritism from congress.

18% with a single deduction + payroll will allow businesses to stop spending so much on accountants, lawyers and lobbyists instead of expanding their businesses through good old fashioned hard work.

Stop focusing on the trees and look at the fucking forest, Bud.

18% with a single deduction + payroll will allow businesses to stop spending so much on accountants, lawyers and lobbyists instead of expanding their businesses through good old fashioned hard work.

Taxing companies at 18% of revenues, after you subtract payroll and $25,000, won't leave them with any money to expand.
They borrow money to expand, can't deduct the interest.
Buy equipment, can't deduct that expense.
Buy raw materials, can't deduct that either.

Just how high do you feel profit margins are in our economy?