I wish we could all just get along

[ricechickie]

You're asking the right guy. I got science up the wazoo. What do you need explained to you?

Wazoo science will not do. I need actual science.

Let's start with diversity being destroyed. In what way?

 

[Rikurzhen]

You're asking the right guy. I got science up the wazoo. What do you need explained to you?

Wazoo science will not do. I need actual science.

Let's start with diversity being destroyed. In what way?

There are two types of diversity, but liberals only know of one. There is external diversity and internal diversity. External diversity refers to diversity between entities and internal diversity refers to diversity within entities. For example, take two cities, Los Angeles and Tokyo. Let's use them as proxies for world population. The people on the planet live only in these two cities. Los Angeles is what liberals recognize as a diverse city. People from everywhere live there. Tokyo is what liberals see as an undiverse city. However, when we compare L.A. to Tokyo there is a vast amount of diversity between them. If the population of these two cities, and their population groups, was equally divided between the two cities so that they looked identical, then liberals would be happy about having made Tokyo diverse. In so doing they would have wiped diversity off the planet for now the two cities are no longer diverse between themselves, they're identical, they have internal diversity and zero external diversity.

The same applies to racial groups. When we wipe out a Amazonian tribe, we wipe out diversity, even though those tribe members have been absorbed into Rio's teeming masses.

Here's another example. By wiping out male universities, our higher education system has become less diverse. There is now no place for a male to attend where he can get his university education in a completely male environment. Zero. Liberals have committed cultural genocide on that issue. The world is poorer for having lost that diversity.

Think of it from the environmentalist viewpoint. Clear cut forests are very diverse regions of forest land. If all of the clear cut sections are replanted with a mix of Cedar, Pine, Douglas Fir, Spruce, Maple, in set proportions, each clear cut section has internal diversity but every clear cut section is now identical to every other clear cut section and you lose the Dogwood trees, the Ponderosa Pine, the Madrossa, that only grew in some regions. The diversity between regions is lost and monoculture, with internal diversity, reigns supreme. If you are a hiker, it doesn't matter if you're hiking in Colorado, Oregon, B.C. or Alaska, the woods you're hiking through now all look alike, they all have the same internal diversity but all of the regional diversity has been destroyed.

 

[ricechickie]

You're asking the right guy. I got science up the wazoo. What do you need explained to you?

Wazoo science will not do. I need actual science.

Let's start with diversity being destroyed. In what way?

There are two types of diversity, but liberals only know of one. There is external diversity and internal diversity. External diversity refers to diversity between entities and internal diversity refers to diversity within entities. For example, take two cities, Los Angeles and Tokyo. Let's use them as proxies for world population. The people on the planet live only in these two cities. Los Angeles is what liberals recognize as a diverse city. People from everywhere live there. Tokyo is what liberals see as an undiverse city. However, when we compare L.A. to Tokyo there is a vast amount of diversity between them. If the population of these two cities, and their population groups, was equally divided between the two cities so that they looked identical, then liberals would be happy about having made Tokyo diverse. In so doing they would have wiped diversity off the planet for now the two cities are no longer diverse between themselves, they're identical, they have internal diversity and zero external diversity.

The same applies to racial groups. When we wipe out a Amazonian tribe, we wipe out diversity, even though those tribe members have been absorbed into Rio's teeming masses.

Here's another example. By wiping out male universities, our higher education system has become less diverse. There is now no place for a male to attend where he can get his university education in a completely male environment. Zero. Liberals have committed cultural genocide on that issue. The world is poorer for having lost that diversity.

Think of it from the environmentalist viewpoint. Clear cut forests are very diverse regions of forest land. If all of the clear cut sections are replanted with a mix of Cedar, Pine, Douglas Fir, Spruce, Maple, in set proportions, each clear cut section has internal diversity but every clear cut section is now identical to every other clear cut section and you lose the Dogwood trees, the Ponderosa Pine, the Madrossa, that only grew in some regions. The diversity between regions is lost and monoculture, with internal diversity, reigns supreme. If you are a hiker, it doesn't matter if you're hiking in Colorado, Oregon, B.C. or Alaska, the woods you're hiking through now all look alike, they all have the same internal diversity but all of the regional diversity has been destroyed.

Your arguments that involve actual humans sound like a case for separate but equal.

 

[Rikurzhen]

You're asking the right guy. I got science up the wazoo. What do you need explained to you?

Wazoo science will not do. I need actual science.

Let's start with diversity being destroyed. In what way?

There are two types of diversity, but liberals only know of one. There is external diversity and internal diversity. External diversity refers to diversity between entities and internal diversity refers to diversity within entities. For example, take two cities, Los Angeles and Tokyo. Let's use them as proxies for world population. The people on the planet live only in these two cities. Los Angeles is what liberals recognize as a diverse city. People from everywhere live there. Tokyo is what liberals see as an undiverse city. However, when we compare L.A. to Tokyo there is a vast amount of diversity between them. If the population of these two cities, and their population groups, was equally divided between the two cities so that they looked identical, then liberals would be happy about having made Tokyo diverse. In so doing they would have wiped diversity off the planet for now the two cities are no longer diverse between themselves, they're identical, they have internal diversity and zero external diversity.

The same applies to racial groups. When we wipe out a Amazonian tribe, we wipe out diversity, even though those tribe members have been absorbed into Rio's teeming masses.

Here's another example. By wiping out male universities, our higher education system has become less diverse. There is now no place for a male to attend where he can get his university education in a completely male environment. Zero. Liberals have committed cultural genocide on that issue. The world is poorer for having lost that diversity.

Think of it from the environmentalist viewpoint. Clear cut forests are very diverse regions of forest land. If all of the clear cut sections are replanted with a mix of Cedar, Pine, Douglas Fir, Spruce, Maple, in set proportions, each clear cut section has internal diversity but every clear cut section is now identical to every other clear cut section and you lose the Dogwood trees, the Ponderosa Pine, the Madrossa, that only grew in some regions. The diversity between regions is lost and monoculture, with internal diversity, reigns supreme. If you are a hiker, it doesn't matter if you're hiking in Colorado, Oregon, B.C. or Alaska, the woods you're hiking through now all look alike, they all have the same internal diversity but all of the regional diversity has been destroyed.

Your arguments that involve actual humans sound like a case for separate but equal.

Canada is doing that with it's black-only public school program:

Toronto students will now be able to follow an Africentric curriculum from kindergarten until graduation after the Toronto District School Board voted Wednesday night to establish an Africentric high school.
​

There is a uniquely American perception of separate but equal which doesn't hold around the world. The sinister implication of Tokyo wanting to remain a wholly Japanese city simply isn't present. If you're a tourist or someone who loves cultural difference, then you should love to fly into Tokyo and celebrate its difference to L.A. or Wichita or Miami. If you flew into Tokyo and it was no different than Seattle or Houston or Rome, then there really would be no point in flying to Tokyo at all because your experience would be replicable in Seattle or Houston or Rome.

I prefer a world of glorious diversity - when I travel to different places I don't want them to be the same as other places I've visited. I hate LA because there's nothing LA about the place anymore, it's a huge bazaar of cultures but the place has lost individuality. I don't look forward to living the liberal's dream vision of a world of clones, I much prefer to live in a world of color and individuality.

 

[ricechickie]

Canada is doing that with it's black-only public school program:

Toronto students will now be able to follow an Africentric curriculum from kindergarten until graduation after the Toronto District School Board voted Wednesday night to establish an Africentric high school.
​

There is a uniquely American perception of separate but equal which doesn't hold around the world. The sinister implication of Tokyo wanting to remain a wholly Japanese city simply isn't present. If you're a tourist or someone who loves cultural difference, then you should love to fly into Tokyo and celebrate its difference to L.A. or Wichita or Miami. If you flew into Tokyo and it was no different than Seattle or Houston or Rome, then there really would be no point in flying to Tokyo at all because your experience would be replicable in Seattle or Houston or Rome.

I prefer a world of glorious diversity - when I travel to different places I don't want them to be the same as other places I've visited. I hate LA because there's nothing LA about the place anymore, it's a huge bazaar of cultures but the place has lost individuality. I don't look forward to living the liberal's dream vision of a world of clones, I much prefer to live in a world of color and individuality.

Thank you for providing that link. I am distinctly uncomfortable with that whole notion, but the point is, nowhere does the article say that only African students may attend that school.

I think you have a narrow view of diversity. I assure you, LA is still very much LA, which is different from NY. NYC is ONLY NYC because of all the diversity. But when you separate people by race, very often they are separated by class. Thus one gets tied to the other, and since a person can't change their race, their class can become fixed.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Canada is doing that with it's black-only public school program:

Toronto students will now be able to follow an Africentric curriculum from kindergarten until graduation after the Toronto District School Board voted Wednesday night to establish an Africentric high school.
​

There is a uniquely American perception of separate but equal which doesn't hold around the world. The sinister implication of Tokyo wanting to remain a wholly Japanese city simply isn't present. If you're a tourist or someone who loves cultural difference, then you should love to fly into Tokyo and celebrate its difference to L.A. or Wichita or Miami. If you flew into Tokyo and it was no different than Seattle or Houston or Rome, then there really would be no point in flying to Tokyo at all because your experience would be replicable in Seattle or Houston or Rome.

I prefer a world of glorious diversity - when I travel to different places I don't want them to be the same as other places I've visited. I hate LA because there's nothing LA about the place anymore, it's a huge bazaar of cultures but the place has lost individuality. I don't look forward to living the liberal's dream vision of a world of clones, I much prefer to live in a world of color and individuality.

Thank you for providing that link. I am distinctly uncomfortable with that whole notion, but the point is, nowhere does the article say that only African students may attend that school.

Okay, nowhere it is written that a man can't do to his doctor and ask for a pap smear. You see the point? No Asian or white is really going to be interested in sending their kid through 12 years of Afro-centric schooling. The point of separate but equal in the Toronto School District is not to punish blacks but to actually give them a SEPARATE BUT EQUAL education option. Most blacks there are not taking advantage of it, but some are. The fact that this school system/program exists ACTUALLY INCREASES diversity. You see that, right?

Look, you raised the separate but equal issue, but realize that increasing diversity in the world doesn't have to equate to separate but equal.

I think you have a narrow view of diversity. I assure you, LA is still very much LA, which is different from NY. NYC is ONLY NYC because of all the diversity. But when you separate people by race, very often they are separated by class. Thus one gets tied to the other, and since a person can't change their race, their class can become fixed.

I've traveled all over the world, I've lived in multiple countries. I assure you that I've been exposed to plenty of diversity and I'm pretty confident that my view of diversity is more broad than most people's and probably yours too.

So NYC wasn't NYC back in the 50s or the 30s? There was no Brooklyn diversity or Bronx diversity? NYC only became NYC when Koreans and Liberians and Haitians moved there?

Your race and class comment is too cryptic for me to decipher.

 

[ricechickie]

Okay, nowhere it is written that a man can't do to his doctor and ask for a pap smear. You see the point? No Asian or white is really going to be interested in sending their kid through 12 years of Afro-centric schooling. The point of separate but equal in the Toronto School District is not to punish blacks but to actually give them a SEPARATE BUT EQUAL education option. Most blacks there are not taking advantage of it, but some are. The fact that this school system/program exists ACTUALLY INCREASES diversity. You see that, right?

Look, you raised the separate but equal issue, but realize that increasing diversity in the world doesn't have to equate to separate but equal.

I've traveled all over the world, I've lived in multiple countries. I assure you that I've been exposed to plenty of diversity and I'm pretty confident that my view of diversity is more broad than most people's and probably yours too.

So NYC wasn't NYC back in the 50s or the 30s? There was no Brooklyn diversity or Bronx diversity? NYC only became NYC when Koreans and Liberians and Haitians moved there?

Your race and class comment is too cryptic for me to decipher.

Good point. So places change. The world is changing. So, you say that LA lost its unique LA feel, but really, it just changed.

My point about race and class is that race has become tied to class. Thankfully, it is getting less tied, so that being black doesn't automatically mean being poor. But it used to mean that, to such an extent that anything for black people was not equal.

 

[MaryL]

There isn't any point that can be made finer enough to divide the human race, and that is a fact. Hutus and the Tutsis in Rwanda. Blacks slicing innocent people to death with machetes. Whites murdering each other.The Protestants and the Catholics kneecapping each other, planting bombs and slaughtering each other in Ireland. Please. It will never ever end.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Okay, nowhere it is written that a man can't do to his doctor and ask for a pap smear. You see the point? No Asian or white is really going to be interested in sending their kid through 12 years of Afro-centric schooling. The point of separate but equal in the Toronto School District is not to punish blacks but to actually give them a SEPARATE BUT EQUAL education option. Most blacks there are not taking advantage of it, but some are. The fact that this school system/program exists ACTUALLY INCREASES diversity. You see that, right?

Look, you raised the separate but equal issue, but realize that increasing diversity in the world doesn't have to equate to separate but equal.

I've traveled all over the world, I've lived in multiple countries. I assure you that I've been exposed to plenty of diversity and I'm pretty confident that my view of diversity is more broad than most people's and probably yours too.

So NYC wasn't NYC back in the 50s or the 30s? There was no Brooklyn diversity or Bronx diversity? NYC only became NYC when Koreans and Liberians and Haitians moved there?

Your race and class comment is too cryptic for me to decipher.

Good point. So places change. The world is changing. So, you say that LA lost its unique LA feel, but really, it just changed.

My point about race and class is that race has become tied to class. Thankfully, it is getting less tied, so that being black doesn't automatically mean being poor. But it used to mean that, to such an extent that anything for black people was not equal.

Black doesn't have to equal poor when Government puts it big fat thumb on the scale to purposely increase black prosperity.

The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits. It’s a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.

Dayton is in desperate need of officers to replace dozens of retirees. The hiring process was postponed for months because the D.O.J. rejected the original scores provided by the Dayton Civil Service Board, which administers the test.

Under the previous requirements, candidates had to get a 66% on part one of the exam and a 72% on part two.

The D.O.J. approved new scoring policy only requires potential police officers to get a 58% and a 63%. That’s the equivalent of an ‘F’ and a ‘D’.
​

As far back as the 1970s actual racial wage discrimination in the labor market didn't exist:

The analyses of the General Social Survey data from 1974 to 2000 replicate earlier findings from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth that racial disparity in earnings disappears once cognitive ability is controlled for. The results are robust across many alternative specifications, and further show that blacks receive significantly greater returns to their cognitive ability than nonblacks. The trend data show that there was no sign of racial discrimination in the United States as early as 1970s. The analyses call into question the necessity of and justification for preferential treatment of ethnic minorities.​

The de-linkage that you're observing and praising is the direct result of Government violating principles of fairness and merit. This outcome arises through active management/cheating and this corruption weakens society. Measures which weaken society are not sustainable in the long run for they help in destroying society. If you continually chip away at a house's foundation, eventually that house is going to collapse from the weakened foundation.

 

[ricechickie]

Black doesn't have to equal poor when Government puts it big fat thumb on the scale to purposely increase black prosperity.

The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits. It’s a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.

Dayton is in desperate need of officers to replace dozens of retirees. The hiring process was postponed for months because the D.O.J. rejected the original scores provided by the Dayton Civil Service Board, which administers the test.

Under the previous requirements, candidates had to get a 66% on part one of the exam and a 72% on part two.

The D.O.J. approved new scoring policy only requires potential police officers to get a 58% and a 63%. That’s the equivalent of an ‘F’ and a ‘D’.
​

As far back as the 1970s actual racial wage discrimination in the labor market didn't exist:

The analyses of the General Social Survey data from 1974 to 2000 replicate earlier findings from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth that racial disparity in earnings disappears once cognitive ability is controlled for. The results are robust across many alternative specifications, and further show that blacks receive significantly greater returns to their cognitive ability than nonblacks. The trend data show that there was no sign of racial discrimination in the United States as early as 1970s. The analyses call into question the necessity of and justification for preferential treatment of ethnic minorities.​

The de-linkage that you're observing and praising is the direct result of Government violating principles of fairness and merit. This outcome arises through active management/cheating and this corruption weakens society. Measures which weaken society are not sustainable in the long run for they help in destroying society. If you continually chip away at a house's foundation, eventually that house is going to collapse from the weakened foundation.

So, you think "black" generally equalling "poor" is good for society?

Affirmative action needs to end, because it has outlived its usefulness. But to pretend that wide disparity between the haves and the have-nots, and further, for that disparity to fall along racial or religious lines, is good for society.....well, you've lost me.

I notice "have-nots" rarely feel like income and power inequality is a positive thing.

 

[Rotagilla]

My point about race and class is that race has become tied to class. Thankfully, it is getting less tied, so that being black doesn't automatically mean being poor. But it used to mean that, to such an extent that anything for black people was not equal.

Of course you make wild claims and assertions..all based on what you've "been told"....not a shred of evidence.

..but you demand proof from others...and when it's provided, your "rebuttal" is essentially "nuh uh"...

Just seeking attention and arguing for the sake of argument...weak...

 

[ricechickie]

My point about race and class is that race has become tied to class. Thankfully, it is getting less tied, so that being black doesn't automatically mean being poor. But it used to mean that, to such an extent that anything for black people was not equal.

Of course you make wild claims and assertions..all based on what you've "been told"....not a shred of evidence.

..but you demand proof from others...and when it's provided, your "rebuttal" is essentially "nuh uh"...

Just seeking attention and arguing for the sake of argument...weak...

I'm not sure what you need evidence for? That being black used to almost invariably mean you were poor in our nation's history, or that it means less so now.

By the way, I also base assertions on what I've lived.

But you seem cranky. Do you need a hot water bottle? Chamomile tea?

 

[Rotagilla]

There isn't any point that can be made finer enough to divide the human race, and that is a fact. Hutus and the Tutsis in Rwanda. Blacks slicing innocent people to death with machetes. Whites murdering each other.The Protestants and the Catholics kneecapping each other, planting bombs and slaughtering each other in Ireland. Please. It will never ever end.

Humans are tribal, ethnocentric and imperfect...They have been for over 20,000 years.

Only hard core leftists and naive, idealistic young people with little life experience think forcing people together at gunpoint will "cure" those traits.

...and when government by force collapses you get ethnic cleansing due to long standing hatred and resentment...

 

[Rotagilla]

I'm not sure what you need evidence for? That being black used to almost invariably mean you were poor in our nation's history, or that it means less so now.

whatever you say...play dumb..do whatever you need to...just arguing for arguments sake..

By the way, I also base assertions on what I've lived.

Very narrow and sheltered world view..
You never went to the moon, but it happened.

But you seem cranky. Do you need a hot water bottle? Chamomile tea?

Oh yes...you're so very witty...as you try to now cause a distraction and change the subject to make it about me...weak.

 

[ricechickie]

There isn't any point that can be made finer enough to divide the human race, and that is a fact. Hutus and the Tutsis in Rwanda. Blacks slicing innocent people to death with machetes. Whites murdering each other.The Protestants and the Catholics kneecapping each other, planting bombs and slaughtering each other in Ireland. Please. It will never ever end.

Humans are tribal, ethnocentric and imperfect...They have been for over 20,000 years.

Only hard core leftists and naive, idealistic young people with little life experience think forcing people together at gunpoint will "cure" those traits.

...and when government by force collapses you get ethnic cleansing due to long standing hatred and resentment...

Who is being forced together at gunpoint?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Black doesn't have to equal poor when Government puts it big fat thumb on the scale to purposely increase black prosperity.

The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits. It’s a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.

Dayton is in desperate need of officers to replace dozens of retirees. The hiring process was postponed for months because the D.O.J. rejected the original scores provided by the Dayton Civil Service Board, which administers the test.

Under the previous requirements, candidates had to get a 66% on part one of the exam and a 72% on part two.

The D.O.J. approved new scoring policy only requires potential police officers to get a 58% and a 63%. That’s the equivalent of an ‘F’ and a ‘D’.
​

As far back as the 1970s actual racial wage discrimination in the labor market didn't exist:

The analyses of the General Social Survey data from 1974 to 2000 replicate earlier findings from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth that racial disparity in earnings disappears once cognitive ability is controlled for. The results are robust across many alternative specifications, and further show that blacks receive significantly greater returns to their cognitive ability than nonblacks. The trend data show that there was no sign of racial discrimination in the United States as early as 1970s. The analyses call into question the necessity of and justification for preferential treatment of ethnic minorities.​

The de-linkage that you're observing and praising is the direct result of Government violating principles of fairness and merit. This outcome arises through active management/cheating and this corruption weakens society. Measures which weaken society are not sustainable in the long run for they help in destroying society. If you continually chip away at a house's foundation, eventually that house is going to collapse from the weakened foundation.

So, you think "black" generally equalling "poor" is good for society?

Here;s the thing. Anytime you introduce an inefficiency into a system it's never a clean and constrained operation, meaning that if you want to boost some factor by 10% it's never as simple as just reducing another factor by 10%. That inefficiency ripples throughout the system and while one factor gets a 10% benefit the cost of achieving that is a 20% decrease in overall efficiency. In economic terms this is called Deadweight Loss.

The reality is that Some People Will Be Poor. Right? We agree on that, don't we? All that is achieved by working to make sure that the poor isn't filled mostly with blacks is that society, in the aggregate becomes poorer while some blacks climb out of poverty and others replace them.

All we've accomplished is a charade. We've made society less efficient, therefore poorer than it otherwise would have been, we've corrupted fairness in governance and culture, in order to engineer more racially measured wealth outcomes. The ranks of the poor are still there, so what of the new people who have been shoved into poverty? Is their poverty OK so long as government corruption was used to elevate some blacks out of poverty?

I'm more inclined to favor fairness and efficiency which make us all richer, even if that means there is more racial stratification with blacks being more visible in the poor and the lower middle class. I prefer fairness over corruption designed to bring about a delusion of equality.

Affirmative action needs to end, because it has outlived its usefulness. But to pretend that wide disparity between the haves and the have-nots, and further, for that disparity to fall along racial or religious lines, is good for society.....well, you've lost me.

I notice "have-nots" rarely feel like income and power inequality is a positive thing.

Affirmative Action can't end because it now has too many defenders who are utterly reliant on AA to improve their lives. Look at the Dayton Police Department. No blacks qualified for the job. You're going to see that everywhere and blacks and Hispanics won't let them come about.

You don't want blacks to dominate the poor but that's exactly what will happen in you remove AA.

The wide disparity between haves and have-nots is actually wider within the black population than between the white and black populations. Why then the focus on the difference between black and white instead of between rich black and poor black?

 

[Rotagilla]

There isn't any point that can be made finer enough to divide the human race, and that is a fact. Hutus and the Tutsis in Rwanda. Blacks slicing innocent people to death with machetes. Whites murdering each other.The Protestants and the Catholics kneecapping each other, planting bombs and slaughtering each other in Ireland. Please. It will never ever end.

Humans are tribal, ethnocentric and imperfect...They have been for over 20,000 years.

Only hard core leftists and naive, idealistic young people with little life experience think forcing people together at gunpoint will "cure" those traits.

...and when government by force collapses you get ethnic cleansing due to long standing hatred and resentment...

Who is being forced together at gunpoint?

I'm not going to play word games with you. Maybe someone else will. Have fun.

 

[Pogo]

uh --- they're your words, dood....

Only hard core leftists and naive, idealistic young people with little life experience think forcing people together at gunpoint will "cure" those traits..

Wtf?

 

[Rotagilla]

uh --- they're your words, dood....

Only hard core leftists and naive, idealistic young people with little life experience think forcing people together at gunpoint will "cure" those traits..

Wtf?

..ok "dood".
The last time people in america tried to exercise the right to peacefully withdraw from the union and form their own nation, they were invaded, attacked and forced (after having their homes, businesses and infrastructure wrecked) to submit at gunpoint....they are called vile names and slandered for wanting the right to self determine their own future and manner of government....."dood"

....but this nation was founded by people who wanted to peacefully withdraw from england..and they were invaded, attacked and their homes, businesses and infrastructure wrecked. They are called "patriots" for wanting the right to self determine their own future and manner of government...."dood"

These words below and the lincoln quote following are just that..empty, meaningless words... essentially lies...

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."

Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848


Samuel Adams had it right;
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams

 

[Pogo]

Wow...

So you're saying Abe Lincoln was a "hard core leftist"? Or a "naive, idealistic young person with little life experience"? Which one?