I found this shocking. Why do so many Jews in Israel wish to leave?

[abi]

You have no right AT ALL to decide who speaks for the Jewish people.

Nor do you.

There is no difference, collectively, between "Zionists" and the Jewish people. The only ones who make that false distinction are those who are antisemitic but wish to appear not to be.

That is just silly and using the anti-Semite card here of all places is telling.

You likely never even read the OP of this thread. The Jewish people do NOT see this as a settled matter.

Most Jews have still not yet moved to Israel and over a quarter of the ones who have, wish to leave. But, they cannot?

Furthermore, not only is there a large segment of Jews who today are anti-Zionist, but from the beginning, prominent Jews, both religious and secular, opposed the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and even warned everyone that was willing to listen.

 

[Shusha]

You likely never even read the OP of this thread. The Jewish people do NOT see this as a settled matter.

Most Jews have still not yet moved to Israel and over a quarter of the ones who have, wish to leave. But, they cannot?

On the contrary, you are making assumptions about the meaning of a simple poll question in an attempt to somehow discredit the idea of self-determination for the Jewish people.

 

[abi]

On the contrary, you are making assumptions about the meaning of a simple poll question in an attempt to somehow discredit the idea of self-determination for the Jewish people.

Not true, and if you would simply offer answers to the questions, as opposed to skipping over them and proclaiming ignorance, I would really appreciate it.

To be clear for you, let me reiterate.

The Jewish people do NOT see this as a settled matter. Fair?

Most Jews have still not yet moved to Israel and over a quarter of the ones who have, wish to leave. But, they cannot? Why can't they leave and how telling is this simple statistic?

Furthermore, not only is there a large segment of Jews who today are anti-Zionist, but from the beginning, prominent Jews, both religious and secular, opposed the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and even warned everyone that was willing to listen. Those are facts, correct?

 

[rylah]

Most Jews have still not yet moved to Israel and over a quarter of the ones who have, wish to leave. But, they cannot? Why can't they leave and how telling is this simple statistic?

You're spreading a lie

Half of Jews live in Israel, while a quarter of single 20 something's wish to leave for better pastures.

They can leave easily, through education, marriage, business, family or work - depends on each countries' demands for citizenship.

 

[abi]

You are lying.

Israel at 69 has 8,680,000 citizens, 43% of world Jewry

And the OP was clear: A whopping 27% of the Jewish population of Israel would leave the country if they could

 

[Shusha]

The Jewish people do NOT see this as a settled matter. Fair?

I reject your premise. There is nothing to BE settled. Israel exists. Its not subject to an on-going debate.

But, they cannot? Why can't they leave and how telling is this simple statistic?

Its only 'telling' if you make assumptions about what it means. What assumptions are you making about this 'simple' statistic? Rylah has pointed out the desire to leave is primarily an economic drive in young men and that you find similar statistics in many places in the world, including the US. So what is your point? That young men seek economic success? So what?

Furthermore, not only is there a large segment of Jews who today are anti-Zionist

You have presented no evidence to support this. So no, its not a fact.

from the beginning, prominent Jews, both religious and secular, opposed the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and even warned everyone that was willing to listen. Those are facts, correct?

You have presented no evidence to support this. So no, its not a fact. I'm absolutely certain you can come up with one or two "prominent" Jews who opposed the creation of a Jewish homeland. So what? I could produce many more who did not. Again, so what?

 

[abi]

I reject your premise. There is nothing to BE settled. Israel exists. Its not subject to an on-going debate.

Yes, it exists. We are not even discussing that. We are discussing whether or not the Zionists have the right to speak for the Jewish people. I have shown you multiple ways why this does not appear so.

1) Most Jews have never moved there.
2) A seemingly staggering percentage wish to leave.
3) Anti-Zionist Jews exist. They have since creating Israel in Palestine was a thought. From many sects, backgrounds and nations.

The rest of your post illustrates that you have either never actually researched any of this or simply refuse to stray from your narrative. Either way, thanks for answering.

 

[rylah]

You are lying.

Israel at 69 has 8,680,000 citizens, 43% of world Jewry

And the OP was clear: A whopping 27% of the Jewish population of Israel would leave the country if they could

Hmm...what part of 'citzients' didn't You get?
While You tried to spin all that "they wanna leave Israel" narrative, You've stumbled on a contrary notion - those want to leave are 20 somethings, s1ngles.
Next is the issue You've totally overlooked in the statistics - non- Israeli citizens who live in Israel on a regular basis. Those are not counted in Your statistics.They may be the most ant-Zionist people...but still live in Israel.

Then if You'd ever know where most of those "anti-Zionists" live...You'd need a chair.

 

[rylah]

I reject your premise. There is nothing to BE settled. Israel exists. Its not subject to an on-going debate.

Yes, it exists. We are not even discussing that. We are discussing whether or not the Zionists have the right to speak for the Jewish people. I have shown you multiple ways why this does not appear so.

1) Most Jews have never moved there.
2) A seemingly staggering percentage wish to leave.
3) Anti-Zionist Jews exist. They have since creating Israel in Palestine was a thought. From many sects, backgrounds and nations.

The rest of your post illustrates that you have either never actually researched any of this or simply refuse to stray from your narrative. Either way, thanks for answering.

This is a totally different subject, You're deflecting.
Israeli govt has the right to speak for the Israeli citizens, and has an exclusive right to speak for those Jews who seek Israel's help or are in need of it. This connection of survival between Israel and Jews worldwide will remain forever.

 

[Shusha]

Yes, it exists. We are not even discussing that. We are discussing whether or not the Zionists have the right to speak for the Jewish people.

We are discussing whether or not the Jewish people have the right to speak for the Jewish people? That's ridiculous.

 

[Shusha]

3) Anti-Zionist Jews exist.

An "anti-Zionist" is someone who believes that the Jewish people don't have the same rights as other people. Sure, they exist.

 

[jillian]

A whopping 27% of the Jewish population of Israel would leave the country if they could, according to a survey conducted for Masa Israeli – Israeli Roots Odyssey on the eve of its fourth conference to be held at the Knesset Monday.

The highest rate of those who wish to leave was among secular Jews, where 36% said they would have left.
Survey: 36% of Secular Jews Want to Leave Israel | The Jewish Press - JewishPress.com | JNi.Media | 22 Adar 5777 – March 20, 2017 | JewishPress.com

Over and over we see Israel's posters tell us about "the Jewish people," and their "rights to self-determination," especially in "their ancestral homeland," but from the looks of things, the Jewish people do NOT see this as a settled matter.

Most Jews have still not yet moved to Israel and over a quarter of the ones who have, wish to leave. But, they cannot?

Furthermore, not only is there a large segment of Jews who today are anti-Zionist, but from the beginning, prominent Jews, both religious and secular, opposed the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and even warned everyone that was willing to listen.

Does anyone wish to share any insight on this? Thanks in advance.

probably because they get thousands of bombs dropped on them by terrorists

and 36% of secular jews isn't that large a number.

 

[abi]

You have presented no evidence to support this. So no, its not a fact. I'm absolutely certain you can come up with one or two "prominent" Jews who opposed the creation of a Jewish homeland. So what?

One or two? Again, research this yourself. I'll start you out. Here is a statement from Hungary's Rabbis that was written in 1920.


WARNING


We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we have arrived at the following determination that:


Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah

Zionism has proved itself to be a false ideology that is very far from the faith of our Torah. Zionism is extremely dangerous and destructive to our religion.


Therefore, we request and admonish every person who still retains a spark of Judaism within his heart:


DO NOT GO IN THE WAYS OF THE ZIONISTS, KEEP AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE THEIR ENTIRE WAY IS EVIL.


It is forbidden to associate with this sect, to support them in any way whatsoever!


As far as we are concerned this issue is of extreme important and affects the spiritual and physical existence of our People, and shall be presented to the national assembly of the Orthodox Bureau, who will analyze this matter.


Therefore, every intelligent person must realize that it is forbidden to attend any of the assemblies held by the Zionists whatsoever!


May those who listen to us be blessed.


City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920

And there is so much more.

Good luck in your search for truth.

 

[Indeependent]

Unfortunately for the Jew haters here, young Orthodox Jewish couple are moving to Israel.
Israel is about to start a push to attract more retirees because they have to fill the South.

 

[Shusha]

You have presented no evidence to support this. So no, its not a fact. I'm absolutely certain you can come up with one or two "prominent" Jews who opposed the creation of a Jewish homeland. So what?

One or two? Again, research this yourself. I'll start you out. Here is a statement from Hungary's Rabbis that was written in 1920.


WARNING


We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we have arrived at the following determination that:


Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah

Zionism has proved itself to be a false ideology that is very far from the faith of our Torah. Zionism is extremely dangerous and destructive to our religion.


Therefore, we request and admonish every person who still retains a spark of Judaism within his heart:


DO NOT GO IN THE WAYS OF THE ZIONISTS, KEEP AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE THEIR ENTIRE WAY IS EVIL.


It is forbidden to associate with this sect, to support them in any way whatsoever!


As far as we are concerned this issue is of extreme important and affects the spiritual and physical existence of our People, and shall be presented to the national assembly of the Orthodox Bureau, who will analyze this matter.


Therefore, every intelligent person must realize that it is forbidden to attend any of the assemblies held by the Zionists whatsoever!


May those who listen to us be blessed.


City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920

And there is so much more.

Good luck in your search for truth.

Straight from the NK website. Truth? Hardly. You are claiming that the views of a tiny non-normative extremist sect of Judaism is somehow "prominent" and the driving force for today's young Israelis. I call bullshit.

 

[Shusha]

You have presented no evidence to support this. So no, its not a fact. I'm absolutely certain you can come up with one or two "prominent" Jews who opposed the creation of a Jewish homeland. So what?

One or two? Again, research this yourself. I'll start you out. Here is a statement from Hungary's Rabbis that was written in 1920.


WARNING


We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we have arrived at the following determination that:


Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah

Zionism has proved itself to be a false ideology that is very far from the faith of our Torah. Zionism is extremely dangerous and destructive to our religion.


Therefore, we request and admonish every person who still retains a spark of Judaism within his heart:


DO NOT GO IN THE WAYS OF THE ZIONISTS, KEEP AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE THEIR ENTIRE WAY IS EVIL.


It is forbidden to associate with this sect, to support them in any way whatsoever!


As far as we are concerned this issue is of extreme important and affects the spiritual and physical existence of our People, and shall be presented to the national assembly of the Orthodox Bureau, who will analyze this matter.


Therefore, every intelligent person must realize that it is forbidden to attend any of the assemblies held by the Zionists whatsoever!


May those who listen to us be blessed.


City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920

And there is so much more.

Good luck in your search for truth.

Hmmmmm. It appears one of the Rabbis listed as the author of that letter in 1920, actually died in 1845. Odd, that.

 

[abi]

Straight from the NK website. Truth? Hardly. You are claiming that the views of a tiny non-normative extremist sect of Judaism is somehow "prominent" and the driving force for today's young Israelis. I call bullshit.

You think they made it up and the Hungarian Rabbis never wrote that document?

Hmmmmm. It appears one of the Rabbis listed as the author of that letter in 1920, actually died in 1845. Odd, that.

I am sure you are mistaken. You may have found a Rabbi with the same name.

And I did not realize that calling "bullshit" at Rabbis who expose the falsehood of your narrative settles this issue. Let's just agree that neither you, nor the zionist regime, nor Isreal's leaders today, can speak for "the Jewish people."

 

[teddyearp]

I find the whole premise of this thread shockingly false. Based, again, upon a fringe element and not at all representing majority opines.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Isn't it obvious, they live in a neighborhood that has neighbors who have called for their destruction...tough place to raise a family

 

[abi]

I find the whole premise of this thread shockingly false. Based, again, upon a fringe element and not at all representing majority opines.

Which premise, Teddy, please be specific. They studied this and simply exposed the fact that: A whopping 27% of the Jewish population of Israel would leave the country if they could...

The "Jewish press" reported this. Are they some fringe element? And why can't these poor people leave? That might be the scariest part and the article wasn't clear there.

Isn't it obvious, they live in a neighborhood that has neighbors who have called for their destruction...tough place to raise a family

I get that part and we see this posted over and over. The question this raises is why would anyone in their right mind wish to move there to begin with. Bring children there? Raise children there?