I am not understanding why single payer would be bad

[blu]

There is no reason to allow the government to control all our health care. That is nothing more than more big government. Besides Government health care isn't all that great, I've been under their thumb most of my adult life. Problems on top of problems.

so, again, is the only issue the government?

 

[blu]

ObamaCare is going to be repealed or overturned. It is not the governments job to take care of your health- it is yours. You are responsible for your own life. It is time for Big Government Democrats to put your pants on and grow the fuck up

ObamaCare will NOT be overturned or repealed. Insurance companies paid too much money to get it passed.

ObamaCare is NOT a single-payer system, which is the topic of this thread.

Continue as you were.

just ignore zander

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The US ranks behind all those European countries in terms of life span, infant mortality, and nearly every other statistic as well.

Statistics are really misleading.

For instance, infant mortality in the US includes any premie who survives outside the womb for even a few minutes. Most European countries do not count births before an arbitrary cutoff point, even if that child lives for weeks.

Since the US has a higher accidental death rate, and murder rate, than most countries in Europe that makes our life span lower, do you think that adopting a less efficient health care system will change that? If so, how?

What evidence do you have that any European model system is less efficient than ours?

The fact that a lot of rich Europeans prefer to come here to receive care tells me something about their system.

 

[Zander]

i doubt your fantasy will come to fruition, zander. anyhow, obamacare is just another step in the state empowerment of HMOs which set the system on its feet in the first place.

there's not a lot of oxygen up in those clouds of partisan delusion you're in, and it looks like you could use a breath of objective information.

We'll see what happens when ObamaCare goes before the SCOTUS.

The Administration will have to show where in the enumerated powers they have the power to take over "Health Care". Good luck with that one, it ain't in there.....the commerce clause craptrap they sold it on is not going to hold up.

If the American People want government run Health Care they will need to Amend the Constitution.

How exactly does ObamaCare "take over Health Care"? All the legislation did was require people to buy healthcare, and add regulations to the industry. All the scary-sounding "government takeover" rhetoric is bullshit.

Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Statistics are really misleading.

For instance, infant mortality in the US includes any premie who survives outside the womb for even a few minutes. Most European countries do not count births before an arbitrary cutoff point, even if that child lives for weeks.

Since the US has a higher accidental death rate, and murder rate, than most countries in Europe that makes our life span lower, do you think that adopting a less efficient health care system will change that? If so, how?

What evidence do you have that any European model system is less efficient than ours?

The fact that a lot of rich Europeans prefer to come here to receive care tells me something about their system.

Link?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

We'll see what happens when ObamaCare goes before the SCOTUS.

The Administration will have to show where in the enumerated powers they have the power to take over "Health Care". Good luck with that one, it ain't in there.....the commerce clause craptrap they sold it on is not going to hold up.

If the American People want government run Health Care they will need to Amend the Constitution.

How exactly does ObamaCare "take over Health Care"? All the legislation did was require people to buy healthcare, and add regulations to the industry. All the scary-sounding "government takeover" rhetoric is bullshit.

Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

I'm not defending ObamaCare. I dislike nearly everything about the bill.

But it's not "government takeover of healthcare".

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What evidence do you have that any European model system is less efficient than ours?

The fact that a lot of rich Europeans prefer to come here to receive care tells me something about their system.

Link?

To what? People wanting to save their lives?

CBC News - Nfld. & Labrador - Danny Williams going to U.S. for heart surgery

 

[Zander]

How exactly does ObamaCare "take over Health Care"? All the legislation did was require people to buy healthcare, and add regulations to the industry. All the scary-sounding "government takeover" rhetoric is bullshit.

Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

I'm not defending ObamaCare. I dislike nearly everything about the bill.

But it's not "government takeover of healthcare".

Not yet......

 

[theDoctorisIn]

The fact that a lot of rich Europeans prefer to come here to receive care tells me something about their system.

Link?

To what? People wanting to save their lives?

CBC News - Nfld. & Labrador - Danny Williams going to U.S. for heart surgery

This is a side note, but Newfoundland and Labrador isn't in Europe.

I was asking for a link to any source that proves that this is a widespread fact, not a single instance.

In fact, a link to any metric that ranks the US higher than Canada or Europe, in terms of Healthcare.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

I'm not defending ObamaCare. I dislike nearly everything about the bill.

But it's not "government takeover of healthcare".

Not yet......

But what do you see in your crystal ball, Great Swami?

 

[Trajan]

the way I see it:

1) I want healthcare and pay for it already

how so?

2) Their be more "choice" in which doctors you can see since virtually all of them would enroll in the single payer system

at the end of a gun, they would be told what they will be paid, how they would operate and treat, prescribe etc. .

3) Giving everyone preventive care early will save us millions in not having to treat them for cancer and other expensive illnesses

actually that not exactly so, there are studies that say all in preventive care actually costs a great deal. You'd have folks seeing doctors, and getting tests/ screening for maladies you/they may never get.

"The problem with early detection strategies is it identifies so many well people as having abnormalities that may be worrisome for disease. But it turns out most of them will never become a problem," said Welch, who has looked at the costs and benefits of the routine testing patients undergo.

Preventive care not always cost effective, experts say - Page 2 - CNN

4) the single payer system wouldn't drop you for "pre-existing conditions" or any other nonsense they make up at the time like private insurers can

well, if you are honest AND pay attention to your coverage, you know what you have contracted for or not.

5) I would rather pay into a pool that helps other people in need rather than further enrich immoral millionaires that run the current insurance companies

you are already doing that, you are in a pool now. And because they take a cut for profit means little, you could take every single dime in profit from every ins. co. and maybe, fund the current health care system for a week.

and at the end of the day, if you truly believe that every single person deserves just as much and equal ( access) and as good ( quality) care as anyone else, well, that problematic, we live in a collective, and one of the yardsticks used in a collective is contribution and merit.

what about any of these are bad and what would be so bad about single payer?

if its run by the gov., there's your answer.


bend the cost curve....bend the cost curve.

 

[Trajan]

Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

I'm not defending ObamaCare. I dislike nearly everything about the bill.

But it's not "government takeover of healthcare".

Not yet......

bingo.

its in the works right now....for god sakes people.

 

[antagon]

Yes, it would. That's what single payer is.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a single payer system is feasible right now - private insurance companies own too many of our politicians.

Claims of how bad it is in Europe and Canada are dumb though - they have it better than us, when it comes to healthcare. There's no denying that.

i think that america, to include politicians, have made an investment in HMOs going on 40 years and there's no reason to abandon that for other nation's model. certainly not for a medicare expansion.

this medicare for all deal of yours is ridiculous, as is your idea that european public health services are undeniably better than those available in the US. you clearly haven't been inside a fair share of european hospitals or had any comparative experience between them and private care in the US.

the top systems in europe among which i'm sure holland is included employ private health care insurers at the center of the system. because we've got a massive population and land mass, i feel that it is astute that we have our public/private system. your proposal simply doesnt fit with reality at the basis of its presumptions and doesnt fit with the resources, economy and demands of the US.

it wont matter who owns our politicians.

It's not my idea.

And in terms of which system is better, you're right, I can't judge it for myself, the only time I was in a European hospital, I was 6 years old. But all quantifiable metrics say that European healthcare is better than ours.

Have you spent much time in a national healthcare system? Where do you get your claims that ours is better from?

i've been to a hospital in amsterdam. i lived in london for about a year and had been to a few of their hospitals then and on occasions i had otherwise visited. none have been for my own care, but i've accompanied my mother and friends to the hospital.

my mother, brother and his family have lived in london since 2000. we were raised predominantly in the US with private care or CA medicaid. the prenatal care is what my brother would describe as night and day between private and NHS coverage in the UK, having had one each of his daughters in the respective systems.

i would describe NHS hospitals to be similar to larger, older county hospitals here in the US most seem to have been built around the same time, in the 1940s to 1970s. The service is worse, but that's england, perhaps, not specifically because the hospitals are public. cleanliness is a different standard at one of the hospitals which i went to... all of how i describe these systems is based on mine, my family's and friends' experiences.

i could imagine ways which stats could betray the reality on account of americans' healthfulness (a lack thereof, generally) and the standards which brits seem real cheery with, together with some wild ideas about how healthcare goes down in the US.

the hospital in amsterdam was a year old. it was blingin. the nicest hospital ive been to was this new hospital with a boutique maternity ward in las vegas. newer hospitals with newer materials and design approaches offer an unfair advantage in comparison, but i argue that private systems are the only ones itching for competitive gamesmanship.

 

[antagon]

We'll see what happens when ObamaCare goes before the SCOTUS.

The Administration will have to show where in the enumerated powers they have the power to take over "Health Care". Good luck with that one, it ain't in there.....the commerce clause craptrap they sold it on is not going to hold up.

If the American People want government run Health Care they will need to Amend the Constitution.

How exactly does ObamaCare "take over Health Care"? All the legislation did was require people to buy healthcare, and add regulations to the industry. All the scary-sounding "government takeover" rhetoric is bullshit.

Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

congress has the right to tax you, zander, if you haven't read the constitution. where are you required to buy anything?

 

[Trajan]

How exactly does ObamaCare "take over Health Care"? All the legislation did was require people to buy healthcare, and add regulations to the industry. All the scary-sounding "government takeover" rhetoric is bullshit.

Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

congress has the right to tax you, zander, if you haven't read the constitution. where are you required to buy anything?

3:15

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL7ak__MGyw]YouTube - Obama Goes Toe-To-Toe With Stephanopoulos On "Tax Increases"[/ame]

my 2 cents- they do not have a right to force you to engage in commerce.

 

[antagon]

any twit could answer. what constitutes a requirement or force in the law?

 

[Zander]

I'm not defending ObamaCare. I dislike nearly everything about the bill.

But it's not "government takeover of healthcare".

Not yet......

But what do you see in your crystal ball, Great Swami?

lemme see.......I see a landslide victory for Conservatives in 4 weeks.

Back to the topic - Hugo Chavez didn't nationalize the entire industrial base of Venezuela overnight. He's doing it bit by bit. A war is waged one battle at a time. The people that passed ObamaCare want a single payer takeover of health care. Why pretend that is not the case? Why don't you like it? Lemme guess - it didn't go far enough?

 

[Zander]

How exactly does ObamaCare "take over Health Care"? All the legislation did was require people to buy healthcare, and add regulations to the industry. All the scary-sounding "government takeover" rhetoric is bullshit.

Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

congress has the right to tax you, zander, if you haven't read the constitution. where are you required to buy anything?

It was not sold as a tax. In fact Obama mentioned at least 10,000 times that it wasn't a tax. Here is a video where Obama defends that this is NOT A TAX...maybe it will help refresh your selective memory...
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_-qh9XDbgE]YouTube - OBAMA MANDITORY TAX ON HEALTH CARE IS NOT A TAX[/ame]
It's not a tax. Obama said so. Are you calling him a fucking liar?

 

[Wry Catcher]

the way I see it:

1) I want healthcare and pay for it already

2) Their be more "choice" in which doctors you can see since virtually all of them would enroll in the single payer system

3) Giving everyone preventive care early will save us millions in not having to treat them for cancer and other expensive illnesses

4) the single payer system wouldn't drop you for "pre-existing conditions" or any other nonsense they make up at the time like private insurers can

5) I would rather pay into a pool that helps other people in need rather than further enrich immoral millionaires that run the current insurance companies

what about any of these are bad and what would be so bad about single payer?

Stupid people believe it's "Socialism", that is the only argument against your suggestion.

 

[Zander]

any twit could answer. what constitutes a requirement or force in the law?

You are acting like a twit yourself!

Here is what happens if you refuse to purchase health insurance before ObamaCare - Nothing. You cannot be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine for refusing.

What will happen under Obamacare if you refuse to purchase health insurance? Well, starting in 2014- our friendly tax collectors - Those nice folks at the IRS - will have another task: making sure all Americans have health insurance. Under the law, Americans who can afford health insurance but refuse to buy it will face a fine of up to $695 or 2.5% of their income, whichever is higher.

Twit indeed.