Huwaida Arraf - Free Gaza Movement

[Ropey]

And we do know that the Palestinians are working as hard as they can with whatever and whoever will hold their hand and help them in their endeavors.

I believe Hamas. They are clear. The apologists may be less clear, but the leadership is not cloudy at all and never have been.

That is true. Hamas is clear. They do not need apologists.

Hamas Principles

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery.

The "Zionists" and the freemasons and others are blamed for what Hamas and radical Islamists see as the major calamities of the world, especially the French Revolution.

One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith:

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take."

Hamas Charter

So, sue me.

 

[Ropey]

And this is interesting because it comes from a Muslim

Does it?

Zaki Ameen dedicated his life to Islam. He was raised as a Muslim and studied for a degree in Sharia law, in order to become a qualified Imam. Zaki earned his living from preaching and teaching the principles of Islam, working as an Imam in Egypt, Iraq, Yemen and many gulf states.

It most certainly does.

 

[P F Tinmore]

And we do know that the Palestinians are working as hard as they can with whatever and whoever will hold their hand and help them in their endeavors.

I believe Hamas. They are clear. The apologists may be less clear, but the leadership is not cloudy at all and never have been.

That is true. Hamas is clear. They do not need apologists.

Hamas Principles

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery.

The "Zionists" and the freemasons and others are blamed for what Hamas and radical Islamists see as the major calamities of the world, especially the French Revolution.

One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith:

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take."

Hamas Charter

So, sue me.

Hamas does not like Israel occupying Palestine. They are clear on that.

Nobody likes to be occupied. They are no different than anyone else.

 

[Ropey]

We have both already stated our views. That will not change for either of us P F.

 

[P F Tinmore]

We have both already stated our views. That will not change for either of us P F.

You believe that it was right for foreigners to attack Palestine and take over their country.

That runs against my moral values.

 

[Jos]

Ropey gives a link for a charter Not from hamas, but from an Israeli

Domain Name:MIDEASTWEB.ORG

Registrant Name:Ami Isseroff
MidEast Web
Hanassi Harishon 29
Rehovot
76302
IL

MideastWeb.org - Middle East: MidEastWeb

 

[Ropey]

As I said, we have already discussed this. You have dismissed my side and I have dismissed your side. Repetition, whilst you may appreciate it is useless to me.

Likely those who are more moderate than either of us will be determinate in the event of any peace. Likely those who are less moderate then either of us will be determinate in the event of any war.

Not much else to say.

 

[Ropey]

Ropey gives a link for a charter Not from hamas, but from an Israeli

Domain Name:MIDEASTWEB.ORG

Registrant Name:Ami Isseroff
MidEast Web
Hanassi Harishon 29
Rehovot
76302
IL

MideastWeb.org - Middle East: MidEastWeb

Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Charter
Main article: Hamas Charter

The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlines the organization's position on many issues, and identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[40] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[67][68] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts.[69]

The Charter also asserts that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Zionists were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. Among the charter's controversial statements is the following: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”[39] The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews of Israel.[70] presenting the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam,[39] adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom.[39] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[71]

As for the current status of the charter, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that it is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."[72] British diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006".[73]

Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, “It’s a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended... It projects anger, not vision.”[74] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[72]

They refuse to amend the document.

 

[Ropey]

Ropey gives a link for a charter Not from hamas, but from an Israeli

And so, all Israeli are liars?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ropey gives a link for a charter Not from hamas, but from an Israeli

Domain Name:MIDEASTWEB.ORG

Registrant Name:Ami Isseroff
MidEast Web
Hanassi Harishon 29
Rehovot
76302
IL

MideastWeb.org - Middle East: MidEastWeb

I am waiting for someone to post a link that has a .ps extension.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ropey gives a link for a charter Not from hamas, but from an Israeli

And so, all Israeli are liars?

No, just misinformed.

 

[Jos]

If you say it, Ropey but then again you are prone to lying yourself

 

[P F Tinmore]

You have never read the Hamas Charter PF?

I'm surprised at you.

Go to Wikepedia. You love them so much. They even amended to their slippery 'historic document'.



Continue to wait.

OK.

As for the current status of the charter, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that it is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."[72] British diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006"

Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW, what Hamas official signed that document?

 

[Ropey]

You have never read the Hamas Charter PF?

I'm surprised at you.

Go to Wikepedia. You love them so much. They even amended to their slippery 'historic document'.



Continue to wait.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You have never read the Hamas Charter PF?

I'm surprised at you.

Go to Wikepedia. You love them so much. They even amended to their slippery 'historic document'.



Continue to wait.

Sure I have read it.

Normally a charter, constitution or similar document has a number of signatures of those officials who endorse that document.

So, who signed that charter?

 

[Ropey]

You have never read the Hamas Charter PF?

I'm surprised at you.

Go to Wikepedia. You love them so much. They even amended to their slippery 'historic document'.



Continue to wait.

Sure I have read it.

Normally a charter, constitution or similar document has a number of signatures of those officials who endorse that document.

So, who signed that charter?

You need to research rather than ask an Israeli Jew, don't you think? Learn on your own what you already know and pretend to an even greater ignorance than that is your usual wont.

“We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we will take from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.”

- Hassan Nasrallah, Secretary General of Hezbollah

This is the frightening progression of Islamic terrorism. Rather than an anomaly, killing children and babies is actually the natural next step in its dark development. In her book, Death Orders: The Vanguard of Modern Terrorism in Revolutionary Russia, Anna Geifman, a professor of history at Boston College, explains the background of this disturbing evolution, saying the basis for all modern terrorist movements, especially of the three best known ones — Communist, Nazi and Islamic — is thanatophilia, or worship of death.

 

[Kalam]

Well, kind of like that but not so condensed Kalam. I believe that G-d creates nations for a reason. I believe the creation of nations to be attributable to only G-d. So, if Israel is to be destroyed for G-d's will. Then so be it. That's not the end result I believe, but in the end, I believe that the movement will come as it is supposed to in the way it is supposed to and all humanity has on it's hand, is the ability to lengthen the time of the end.

So, it's all immediate perception and you know where I stand there as well. Sometimes I am mischievous and sometimes I am more crotchety than I would like. Sometimes I like to counter P F's continual spew with some spew of my own. It comes with age I suppose. But its matter Kalam?

I'm wondering why your spew so often involves attempts to vilify my religion, particularly since PF isn't a Muslim (as far as I know)...

I know where you stand as well and in the great scheme of things, Que Sera, Sera. You worry more about thoughts than I, so continue on with your thoughts. If what you think is to be will be, then I personally hope it is the utopia that you philosophically have spoken of and to which I say might have popped up for some periods and was not glamorized for we know that the Arabs are great writers and poets. There is other history, that does not show such a light though, and the history that shows this light you speak of had conquered much of that area. Expansionist? Colonists? Treatments of dhimmi. Today it's the dratted Zionists? Why then all the hate teachings for Jews? No, you have your reality and I have mine Kalam. We don't meld well, but I do wish you well and think you are likely a very good man in all your endeavors even if religiously skewed Heck, the Shia say far worse about the Sunni, but that's your stuff, not mine and that's what's driving what is going on at the moment.

But there is only one reality. Did we practice expansionism? Absolutely. Colonialism? Perhaps. As for the ahl adh-dhimmah, their position in society changed according to the whims of whoever happened to be ruling over them after Mu'awiyah's usurpation. Nonetheless, a Jew living under the most worldly and insincere khalifah probably still enjoyed a higher standard of living than he would have under European rule. Medieval Christendom did not produce a Musa ibn Maymun.

I don't think negatively of you or your religion. Bitterness and 'hate teachings' are corollaries of the humiliation we've allowed ourselves to suffer at your hands and at the hands of the West. Most of it is misdirected.

Islam has more rules than Carter has little liver pills Kalam. I hope that changes if what you want does come to pass.

"The best of your religion is that which is easiest."

No soul is burdened beyond its capacity; every sin other than ash-shirk al-akbar is forgiven upon sincere repentance if someone forgets or errs.

 

[Ropey]

"No soul is burdened beyond its capacity; every sin other than ash-shirk al-akbar is forgiven upon sincere repentance if someone forgets or errs."

Yes, I'm sure that's what the Madrasas in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Gaza are pumping out at this time Kalam.

"I'm wondering why your spew so often involves attempts to vilify my religion, particularly since PF isn't a Muslim (as far as I know)..."

This is not about P F. It's about me. Remember? You posted about me. So if you rephrase, I will likely answer your query directly, and vilify your religion? I vilify the acts of so many people who seem to all follow your religion.

I mean, let's face it. In the ME when people hear yells of Allah Akbar, they often do not think the "Religion of Peace."

Regardless of my "attempts to vilify Islam" I put forwards that Islam can defend itself. When Muslims choose to defend Islam, people die all over the bloody world.

Bitterness and 'hate teachings' are corollaries of the humiliation we've allowed ourselves to suffer at your hands and at the hands of the West. Most of it is misdirected.

Jihad demands response to victimization and there are 21 border flash points world wide with the single variable being that they are all Muslims who just coincidentally practice the same belief and who 'some' say are all being victimized to jihad. Misdirected? Indeed.

Go figure, eh?

 

[Kalam]

And this is interesting because it comes from a Muslim

Does it?

Zaki Ameen dedicated his life to Islam. He was raised as a Muslim and studied for a degree in Sharia law, in order to become a qualified Imam. Zaki earned his living from preaching and teaching the principles of Islam, working as an Imam in Egypt, Iraq, Yemen and many gulf states.

It most certainly does.

Eh, I don't really find extremely vague claims about being an imam and studying the shari'ah to be particularly convincing, especially without independent confirmation or any accompanying academic credentials. As I said, one must be able to distinguish between fluff and works of actual substance. Anybody can adopt a pseudonym and profit off of Western fear and ignorance by claiming first-hand knowledge and making sensational pronouncements. In any case, "Zaki" claims to be an apostate, not a Muslim.

I watched an interview with a formerly Jewish Wahhabi who claimed that Jews are taught to deceive everyone and be cunning. Your thoughts?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel/Palestine is not a religious conflict. Yet most threads turn to arguments about religion.

Why is that? Is it some kind of propaganda thing?