How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[Boss]

Nothing was - god created chaos - out of the chaos came the light of love before time was born.

Which is nothing but metaphoric pablum that means nothing.

 

[zaangalewa]

¿Not? So why exists something? It makes no sense that someting is existing - except maybe we are the nigthmare of an invisible fairy who dreams us because god liked to create us in this way.

I stopped trying to figure out what you're saying a couple of pages ago. I'm not sure why you're still posting when no one is responding to you.

Aha

.. and why do you think we need to see your videos? The videos are not making any more sense than you are.

I don't know about a deity god or whether one exists. All I know is that physical nature can't have created itself because that's a paradox in logic.

What's just simple wrong. We could in some billion years decide to create our universe on our own. Why should we not do so? So we could be on our own the physical nature which creates the physical nature.

Now we can call whatever that thing is by any name we choose, it just so happens that we chose "spiritual nature" to define it. Apparently, that angers some anti-Christian zealots and conjures up images of invisible fairies and such. I can't help that.

Close Guantanamo. You know the reasons why.

 

[emilynghiem]

Step number one should be realizing that for 'God' to be 'God', definition is not possible. It should be realized that any revelation one might have that lead to belief is personal, intimate, and exclusive to the person. This means all religions are at most nebulous guides, at worst dangerous deceptions.
Humanity needs to grow up and out of this father complex concept of an impossible image of deity.

Yes and no there4eyeM
Even though you are right, that no definition is going to be perfect since God represents something infinite (and our perceptions and language are finite) what we can do is
AGREE that the various definitions and manifestations/meanings we relate to God
are all coming from or pointing to the same source. We don't have to agree perfectly on all the aspects to see and agree we're talking about different angles on the same "thing."

As for "religions" they are like different cultural languages for universal laws. Once you map out the terms used to symbolize certain concepts and principles, then you can "translate or interpret" back and forth between different languages. Again these will not be perfect.
Sometimes there is NOT a word or concept that means the same thing in both systems, but at least there can be parallels drawn between "equivalents" from one cultural paradigm to the next.

For example the Christian may talking about God manifesting as God the father, Christ the son, and the Holy Spirit. But someone else may symbolize their universal values as
Truth, Justice and Peace. And these are not the same, but the RELATIONSHIP between the three levels is similar.

Other examples of parallels:
Body Mind and Spirit
Superego Ego Id
Judicial Legislative Executive

The common pattern is some individual/physical/local level,
some collective/universal/spiritual level,
and some connecting level joining these
two to describe laws or relations between them.

The reason for this common pattern found in all religions and systems of laws is that humans are body/mind/spirit. We are individuals but experience life in relation with others socially/spiritually. So we end up defining our laws in terms of individual relating to the collective level by means of conscience or laws governing us in relation to others.

Because people compete for power and control by groups, of course history will show repeat patterns of abuse of both church and state laws to oppress and attack others to try to dominate. That is the abusive use of authority. But the positive use of laws is to teach people to respect equal justice, freedom and peace for all people.

Any laws can be abused due to collective authority and influence bearing greater pressure and force than individual will. So that's why teaching equal justice is so important, so people correct abuses and maintain peaceful relations based on respect.

 

[zaangalewa]

Nothing was - god created chaos - out of the chaos came the light of love before time was born.

Which is nothing but metaphoric pablum that means nothing.

That's nearly what the ancient Greeks said about 2500 years ago. In 2500 years I guess someone will maybe remember that an American president was a Catholic from Berlin who was murdered because he said once: "昔者莊周夢為胡蝶，栩栩然胡蝶也，自喻適志與！不知周也。俄然覺，則蘧蘧然周也。不知周之夢為胡蝶與，胡蝶之夢為周與？周與胡蝶，則必有分矣。此之謂物化"

 

[HUGGY]

Once your thinking foundation has been polluted with nonsense the door has been left wide open to any form of illogical crap to justify and explain your conclusions.

 

[zaangalewa]

Step number one should be realizing that for 'God' to be 'God', definition is not possible. It should be realized that any revelation one might have that lead to belief is personal, intimate, and exclusive to the person. This means all religions are at most nebulous guides, at worst dangerous deceptions.
Humanity needs to grow up and out of this father complex concept of an impossible image of deity.

Everyone can use the word "god". Who respects god respects life. So why should someone who disrespects god respect life? Concrete background: Lots of the leading Nazis in Germany were once educated in humanistic high schools. This was less than senseless. Take Heinrich Himmler as an example: He was one of the worst mass murderers the world ever had seen. Another example: Lots of "humanists" today fight for the human right "abortion". Abortion means to kill human beings. To kill human beings is never able to be naturally a human right.

 

[rightwinger]

I question whether the universe is ordered

It is what it is and we accept it as ordered

 

[Boss]

I question whether the universe is ordered

And you have exactly zero scientists who support your view.

 

[Boss]

Gravitational constant. Cosmological constant. Plank's constant. Faraday constant. Boltzmann constant. Loschmidt constant. Couloumb's constant. Josephson constant. vonKlitzing constant. Fermi coupling constant. Rydberg constant. Madelung constant. Electric constant. Magnetic constant. Wein displacement law constant. Sackur-Tetrode constant. Gas constant. Electrical resistivity. Heat capacity. Fine-structure constant. Elementary charge. Speed of Light. Proton-to-electron mass ratio. Proton mass. Electron mass. Classical electron radius. Bohr radius. Yawaka couplings. Bohr magneton. Nuclear magneton. Efimov factor. ...and about 20 more physical constants. (we won't even get into the myriad of quantum constants)

So... yeah... an ordered universe.

 

[rightwinger]

Gravitational constant. Cosmological constant. Plank's constant. Faraday constant. Boltzmann constant. Loschmidt constant. Couloumb's constant. Josephson constant. vonKlitzing constant. Fermi coupling constant. Rydberg constant. Madelung constant. Electric constant. Magnetic constant. Wein displacement law constant. Sackur-Tetrode constant. Gas constant. Electrical resistivity. Heat capacity. Fine-structure constant. Elementary charge. Speed of Light. Proton-to-electron mass ratio. Proton mass. Electron mass. Classical electron radius. Bohr radius. Yawaka couplings. Bohr magneton. Nuclear magneton. Efimov factor. ...and about 20 more physical constants. (we won't even get into the myriad of quantum constants)

So... yeah... an ordered universe.

The laws of physics
We also have laws of chemistry and biology

Doesn't mean they are ordered only subject to the rules of nature

 

[Boss]

The laws of physics
We also have laws of chemistry and biology

Doesn't mean they are ordered only subject to the rules of nature

No... they ARE the rules of nature. Yes, they are ordered. Very precisely ordered, as it were. And despite all efforts, this can't be explained by a supposedly random phenomenon.

Like I said, you can sit here and idiotically state you don't believe the universe is ordered... you can't find a single credible scientist who agrees with you. They have all kinds of different explanations or theories for an ordered universe but virtually no one in science claims the universe isn't ordered. Now, it could be, like the other dumbass earlier... you don't comprehend what is meant by "ordered" universe? He was mistaking "order" for "serenity" and that's not what it means.

 

[rightwinger]

The laws of physics
We also have laws of chemistry and biology

Doesn't mean they are ordered only subject to the rules of nature

No... they ARE the rules of nature. Yes, they are ordered. Very precisely ordered, as it were. And despite all efforts, this can't be explained by a supposedly random phenomenon.

Like I said, you can sit here and idiotically state you don't believe the universe is ordered... you can't find a single credible scientist who agrees with you. They have all kinds of different explanations or theories for an ordered universe but virtually no one in science claims the universe isn't ordered. Now, it could be, like the other dumbass earlier... you don't comprehend what is meant by "ordered" universe? He was mistaking "order" for "serenity" and that's not what it means.

If there was a creator...why would the universe still be expanding?
Some "order"

Why is the earth still shifting with volcanic eruptions?
You call that order?

Why are organisms continually evolving?
Order would make that unnecessary

 

[there4eyeM]

'Order' may, indeed, be an anthropomorphism. The universe is as it is and we cast our perceptions upon it, using nouns to satisfy our curiosity.

 

[Boss]

The laws of physics
We also have laws of chemistry and biology

Doesn't mean they are ordered only subject to the rules of nature

No... they ARE the rules of nature. Yes, they are ordered. Very precisely ordered, as it were. And despite all efforts, this can't be explained by a supposedly random phenomenon.

Like I said, you can sit here and idiotically state you don't believe the universe is ordered... you can't find a single credible scientist who agrees with you. They have all kinds of different explanations or theories for an ordered universe but virtually no one in science claims the universe isn't ordered. Now, it could be, like the other dumbass earlier... you don't comprehend what is meant by "ordered" universe? He was mistaking "order" for "serenity" and that's not what it means.

If there was a creator...why would the universe still be expanding?
Some "order"

Why is the earth still shifting with volcanic eruptions?
You call that order?

Why are organisms continually evolving?
Order would make that unnecessary

Again, you are using an ignorant interpretation of "order" here. You are assuming "order" means serenity. It doesn't mean serenity. What else can I do to get that point across to you?

Organisms AREN'T continually evolving. Some organisms are capable of adapting to changes and some aren't. Volcanic eruptions are physics happening. Evidence of an ordered universe.

And expansion OR evolution doesn't negate a Creator. Music was surely created by some human at some time... wouldn't you agree? So is music unchanged since it's inception or is it ever-evolving and ever-expanding?

 

[rightwinger]

The laws of physics
We also have laws of chemistry and biology

Doesn't mean they are ordered only subject to the rules of nature

No... they ARE the rules of nature. Yes, they are ordered. Very precisely ordered, as it were. And despite all efforts, this can't be explained by a supposedly random phenomenon.

Like I said, you can sit here and idiotically state you don't believe the universe is ordered... you can't find a single credible scientist who agrees with you. They have all kinds of different explanations or theories for an ordered universe but virtually no one in science claims the universe isn't ordered. Now, it could be, like the other dumbass earlier... you don't comprehend what is meant by "ordered" universe? He was mistaking "order" for "serenity" and that's not what it means.

If there was a creator...why would the universe still be expanding?
Some "order"

Why is the earth still shifting with volcanic eruptions?
You call that order?

Why are organisms continually evolving?
Order would make that unnecessary

Again, you are using an ignorant interpretation of "order" here. You are assuming "order" means serenity. It doesn't mean serenity. What else can I do to get that point across to you?

Organisms AREN'T continually evolving. Some organisms are capable of adapting to changes and some aren't. Volcanic eruptions are physics happening. Evidence of an ordered universe.

And expansion OR evolution doesn't negate a Creator. Music was surely created by some human at some time... wouldn't you agree? So is music unchanged since it's inception or is it ever-evolving and ever-expanding?

We don't need a creator to have rules of physics, chemistry or biology

 

[Boss]

We don't need a creator to have rules of physics, chemistry or biology

Oh, you make it very obvious you don't NEED a Creator. You can be a totally ignorant dipshit and not believe basic truths of the universe around you... and you'll survive just fine. You prove that point every day!

Math and physics don't lie though. We can't explain the vast array of physical constants our universe happens to have.... it just has them. There's no reason a random universe should... but it does.

And it seems to me... LOGICALLY... you DO need a Creator if something EXISTS.... unless that something ALWAYS existed. So, if you believe Newton, Einstein and others... that the physical universe had a beginning, then SOMETHING had to create it. If you don't believe them, then you believe in an Eternal Universe... aka: God.

 

[rightwinger]

We don't need a creator to have rules of physics, chemistry or biology

Oh, you make it very obvious you don't NEED a Creator. You can be a totally ignorant dipshit and not believe basic truths of the universe around you... and you'll survive just fine. You prove that point every day!

Math and physics don't lie though. We can't explain the vast array of physical constants our universe happens to have.... it just has them. There's no reason a random universe should... but it does.

And it seems to me... LOGICALLY... you DO need a Creator if something EXISTS.... unless that something ALWAYS existed. So, if you believe Newton, Einstein and others... that the physical universe had a beginning, then SOMETHING had to create it. If you don't believe them, then you believe in an Eternal Universe... aka: God.

If that is the case then "something" had to create your god...he can't have always existed

Your god would also have to violate one of your basic laws of physics......matter cannot be created or destroyed

 

[Boss]

If that is the case then "something" had to create your god...he can't have always existed

How is something spiritual "created"? Once you explain exactly what you mean by that, we'll talk about it.

 

[Boss]

Your god would also have to violate one of your basic laws of physics......matter cannot be created or destroyed

Which seems to illustrate your problem in communication here. You think a spiritual entity is physical matter. I don't believe in a spiritual physical God.

I agree that in physics, matter can't be created or destroyed... which begs the question, how did it originate? Obviously, it can't create itself without defying itself.... so it's a hopeless paradox. Yet we know... or at least, according to Newton and others... the physical universe did begin at some point. That's either a truth or you have faith in an "eternal universe" which is ostensibly faith in God.

 

[emilynghiem]

We don't need a creator to have rules of physics, chemistry or biology

Oh, you make it very obvious you don't NEED a Creator. You can be a totally ignorant dipshit and not believe basic truths of the universe around you... and you'll survive just fine. You prove that point every day!

Math and physics don't lie though. We can't explain the vast array of physical constants our universe happens to have.... it just has them. There's no reason a random universe should... but it does.

And it seems to me... LOGICALLY... you DO need a Creator if something EXISTS.... unless that something ALWAYS existed. So, if you believe Newton, Einstein and others... that the physical universe had a beginning, then SOMETHING had to create it. If you don't believe them, then you believe in an Eternal Universe... aka: God.

If that is the case then "something" had to create your god...he can't have always existed

Your god would also have to violate one of your basic laws of physics......matter cannot be created or destroyed

Yes rightwinger it is possible that the universe and laws thereunder have always been self existent. That is as faith based as believing in a source of life and laws. Both are possible. Neither is proven or disproven.