how can someone be against school vouchers?

[RodISHI]

Re: the transportation issue. In our town, busses are provided to the local school and to any private (Catholic) school within 10 miles. Between 10 and 20 miles - they offer reimbursement of $800. Over 20 miles, you are on your own. My kid's school is closing at the end of this year. He will have to attend the next closest Catholic High School which is 25 miles away. The parents will be paying for the bus.

I never agreed with vouchers for religious schools, until last night. It seems like the only way to save Catholic education. And even for folks I know who have never considered sending their kids to Catholic school; they too would like that option available - just in case...

Started a program of vouchers for families would improve this nation's education system. Our daughter was valedictorian of her school. Our son is dyslexic and he ended up dropping out of school, yet call the high school here and they will claim he finished high school (son asked me why they would lie, he had applied for a security position and the company was asking him why he would lie. He told the gal seriously why would I tell you I did not finish high school if I had a diploma? head count is money count). We lived in a rural small community where there were very limited choices for either. My son learned more in a few months than he did in years when we had a tutor for him and no public school. It did not cost a whole lot and was worth every penny spent. The teachers that helped him did not have tenure at the school. The teachers with tenure cared less in my opinion. One had been there thirty years. She did not like our son at all and thought she knew it all. She would not let him go to lunch for several weeks. Our son had not said anything about this abuse to us. He had stomach problems his whole childhood, as did I and also my dad. This teacher called me and asked me to come in she told me he was puking everyday in her class on purpose. I was like What, you can't be serious at that point is when I learned he was not being allowed to eat lunch. I was furious. When I asked him about it he let me know he had been puking up blood he told me for several days and told me what they had been doing to him in school. He did not want to say anything because there were other problems and he was trying to get along. I went to the superintendent and gave him two options after we took son to a specialist for his herniated esophagus. I told him he could either provide a teacher away from the school or the school system could be sued, his choice. It was a non tenure teacher that came to teach son. There were two of them in the school that year. Both of those non tenure teachers truly cared about educating the children. Of course the school did not keep either one of them. Local bullshit politics, it goes on everywhere in every school district. When the children were in grade school they had a wonderful principle. I mean this lady really cared about all of the children in her school and her staff. She got so fed up with fighting the good ole boys payback system she quit and went to another school district thirty mile away. That was the second time my son had a tutor instead of public school. the first time was an experiment to see what he was capable of. I was starting a new contract and would be away from home for aprox. six weeks. I called all over up where I would be working and found a special education teacher. Made arrangements with him to teach son while I was starting that job site up. In three weeks with just an hour every other day son did all the work he was behind in public school and six weeks worth of planned studies he teacher had for the whole class. Cost to me less than five hundred dollars and worth every cent. It let me know the public school sucked at teaching not that my son sucked at learning. Public school system told him he was retarded. Talk about a very mad mom that was me. He had to memorize everything because he could not read. Today he lives in a gated community and owns his own businesses. This society would trash everyone who does not conform to the screwed up standards a few are setting if the people would let it.

 

[uscitizen]

I never agreed with vouchers for religious schools, until last night. It seems like the only way to save Catholic education. And even for folks I know who have never considered sending their kids to Catholic school; they too would like that option available - just in case...

What happened last night?

Were you Visited Upon By an Angel of The Vatican?

*****I hate it when that happens: Damn Messkin Food*****

she read about the Pope whipping himself?

 

[Samson]

I never agreed with vouchers for religious schools, until last night. It seems like the only way to save Catholic education. And even for folks I know who have never considered sending their kids to Catholic school; they too would like that option available - just in case...

What happened last night?

Were you Visited Upon By an Angel of The Vatican?

*****I hate it when that happens: Damn Messkin Food*****

she read about the Pope whipping himself?

Without the option of sex with wimmin, I'm content that the Pope should seek some release through whipping himself.

 

[Dr Gregg]

I have no idea, sounds like a great idea and it works well in other countries that do it. Hold schools accountable for doing a poor job.

 

[Dr Gregg]

I have not had any children in the school system for 20 something years.
Still paying the taxes though. Heck it was cheaper to educate my own son than everyone elses.

hate hate hate this argument. Everybody benefits from having educated children. ANd people were paying for your kids when they went to school.

So sick of this "its my money". We all pay taxes, we all benefit from an educated workforce, security, roads, etc.

 

[Samson]

I have not had any children in the school system for 20 something years.
Still paying the taxes though. Heck it was cheaper to educate my own son than everyone elses.

hate hate hate this argument. Everybody benefits from having educated children. ANd people were paying for your kids when they went to school.

So sick of this "its my money". We all pay taxes, we all benefit from an educated workforce, security, roads, etc.

uscitizen clearly doesn't want to pay for education, since he has no children in school.

I see nothing wildly ridiculous about this: If he had his own farm, and his own water supply, and lived in a castle surrounded with a mote, he should be able to declare his independence from the state.

Of course, all would need to pay a $1000.00/pp toll to enter the USA if anyone ever wanted to exit his colony.

 

[chanel]

I never agreed with vouchers for religious schools, until last night. It seems like the only way to save Catholic education. And even for folks I know who have never considered sending their kids to Catholic school; they too would like that option available - just in case...

What happened last night?

Were you Visited Upon By an Angel of The Vatican?

*****I hate it when that happens: Damn Messkin Food*****

A fallen angel my friend. Apparently, Bishop Galante wants the real estate. Jersey Shore property is still worth mega bucks. He has closed four schools in our county so far, including the only Catholic high school.

Many of the public school teachers I know send their kids to Catholic school. Even the non-Catholics. It is going to hurt the entire community. If I had small kids, I'd move.

 

[Samson]

I never agreed with vouchers for religious schools, until last night. It seems like the only way to save Catholic education. And even for folks I know who have never considered sending their kids to Catholic school; they too would like that option available - just in case...

What happened last night?

Were you Visited Upon By an Angel of The Vatican?

*****I hate it when that happens: Damn Messkin Food*****

A fallen angel my friend. Apparently, Bishop Galante wants the real estate. Jersey Shore property is still worth mega bucks. He has closed four schools in our county so far, including the only Catholic high school.

Many of the public school teachers I know send their kids to Catholic school. Even the non-Catholics. It is going to hurt the entire community. If I had small kids, I'd move.

The Vatican needs funds to pay-off the Claimants Associated with Priestly Indescretions.

If I lived in New Jersey, I wouldn't need to have small kids to move....

At any rate, I'm surprised there aren't parents mobilizing to open Charter Schools to fill the vacuum left from the closures?

 

[chanel]

Unfortunately there"s not enough interest in education period to start a charter school. That's why the public schools suck. There's a committee to save the school but I'm not getting my hopes up.

And I really thought the pedo lawsuit shit was over for the most part, but apparently I was wrong. Makes me sick.

Oh - and NJ is still a great state. Aside from all the crap. Lol

 

[Samson]

Unfortunately there"s not enough interest in education period to start a charter school. That's why the public schools suck. There's a committee to save the school but I'm not getting my hopes up.

And I really thought the pedo lawsuit shit was over for the most part, but apparently I was wrong. Makes me sick.

Oh - and NJ is still a great state. Aside from all the crap. Lol

Nice Bumper Sticker:

NJ is still a great state.....
... Aside from all the crap!!

I'm astonished there's no interest in the Charter School option. Even among a fraction of parents who were supporting 4 Catholic schools, I'd expect one or two Lawyers that could get the necessaries off the ground. Here in Colorado, there seems to be no lack of community activists willing to begin a Charter School. They even advertise for enrollment

 

[Dr Gregg]

I have not had any children in the school system for 20 something years.
Still paying the taxes though. Heck it was cheaper to educate my own son than everyone elses.

hate hate hate this argument. Everybody benefits from having educated children. ANd people were paying for your kids when they went to school.

So sick of this "its my money". We all pay taxes, we all benefit from an educated workforce, security, roads, etc.

uscitizen clearly doesn't want to pay for education, since he has no children in school.

I see nothing wildly ridiculous about this: If he had his own farm, and his own water supply, and lived in a castle surrounded with a mote, he should be able to declare his independence from the state.

Of course, all would need to pay a $1000.00/pp toll to enter the USA if anyone ever wanted to exit his colony.

yeah, reap the benefits of your kids getting public education on other people's dimes that didn't have kids, then complain about it when kids get older.

 

[chanel]

Unfortunately there"s not enough interest in education period to start a charter school. That's why the public schools suck. There's a committee to save the school but I'm not getting my hopes up.

And I really thought the pedo lawsuit shit was over for the most part, but apparently I was wrong. Makes me sick.

Oh - and NJ is still a great state. Aside from all the crap. Lol

Nice Bumper Sticker:

NJ is still a great state.....
... Aside from all the crap!!

I'm astonished there's no interest in the Charter School option. Even among a fraction of parents who were supporting 4 Catholic schools, I'd expect one or two Lawyers that could get the necessaries off the ground. Here in Colorado, there seems to be no lack of community activists willing to begin a Charter School. They even advertise for enrollment

I'm not sure what's involved with getting a charter but like all things "New Jersey" I suspect there are way too many regulations and far too many palms to grease.

NJ is a great state - aside from all the crap.

 

[blu]

hate hate hate this argument. Everybody benefits from having educated children.

most public schools now don't educate anyone and are a waste of time.

ANd people were paying for your kids when they went to school.

what if he home schooled or sent his kids to private school?

So sick of this "its my money". We all pay taxes, we all benefit from an educated workforce, security, roads, etc.

It is my money and I would rather chose where it goes. the workforce isn't educated now, cops respond to calls slower than pizza is delivered, and especially where I live (near new orleans) the roads suck.

 

[Samson]

It is my money and I would rather chose where it goes. the workforce isn't educated now, cops respond to calls slower than pizza is delivered, and especially where I live (near new orleans) the roads suck.

Anyone that still lives near New Orleans deserves bad roads and slow, ignorant police.

 

[FA_Q2]

I understand that it would be difficult for many parents but that is not to say impossible even for many inner city student. You seem to think that I am only referring to private schools but I also include other public schools. There are a wide variety of schools in most arias, particularly in the inner city. Where I live there are 5 different elementary schools that are within a 10 min drive, 3 of which are within walking distance. I have ONE choice as to where to send my children and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. Even though they are geographically located in the same aria they are also not equal in their teaching ability.

When it comes to choices amongst public schools I don't think I'd have an objection - assuming there is space in those schools. For example - schools have to take all those in their jurisdiction right? Then if there is space they can take others. In that case no voucher should be needed because all the money
should be staying within the public school system right of that state?

The voucher system in this case would be to shift the funding that one school is receiving to the other school that is taking in the new student. In this manner, the school will be receiving funds based on the number of students that are attending as well as the location rather than just the location.

The difference here is that you seem to believe that if a voucher system were to be put into place the state would somehow then become responsible for the transportation of the students. I do not see why. It is not the states job to ensure that your child can get to the school you choose. That is your responsibility. I also believe it is not the states right to take your taxes and then place artificial barriers in the use of those taxes. I can see the basic argument for not allowing those funds to go to private schools though I disagree with it. I do not see where a voucher system would be a bad thing for public schools in general.

My big argument is less transportation than other issues.

One is this - we guarantee every citizen a chance at a basic education. We do not guarantee the education of choice. Because of this - even though I have no children - I fully support paying for education as it benefits every single one of us but I do not support paying for someone's choice or subsidizing private schools.

The other thing is - you feel that it is only "difficult" but parents can somehow manage to get their kids to the school if they really wanted to....that's a nice belief, but I wonder if you've ever been in the position to test it out with a minimum wage job or two or three and no car?

I have been in that position and whether or not you are there has no bearing on the option of choice for others. Most people have put themselves in that state and even if you did nothing that put you there you always have options to get out. I have been homeless before and now I own my own home and make a decent living. None of that was due to luck, it was a lot of hard choices and sacrifice but here I am today. I really dislike the poormouth defense for anybody; you can drag yourself out of poverty if you are will to work for it.

Honestly, it matters not anyway. You should not remove choices and chances for the middle class to improve just because it is more difficult for the poorer to use it.

On the transportation issue: my state in particular has had a history of problems with the school system. Schools are widely spaced sometimes one per county and mountain geography makes distances much harder to negotiate. Children are bused long distances. Some areas have private school alternatives others don't. There many areas with high rates of unemployment or employment in minimum wage level jobs. These people can't just take off and drive their kids to and from a private school - they depend on a bus to get their kids safely to school. Innercity areas have very real problems with safety for kids going to and from schools and private schools are most likely to be located some distance away. I don't think the voucher, state, or anyone should have to be using tax money to pay for transport to a private school - only for the school in your jurisdiction because anything else will syphon money away from the school.

And the point is…. As stated above, just because some arias are more difficult for people to use vouchers (not impossible mind you) that does not negate the use by others. If it costs nothing then there is no reason not to use it.

You are worried about class stratification? Does that mean that we should disadvantage intelligent or well off individuals on purpose to ensure that those in the lower end can compete better?

I never said that. We provide a level playing field. It's up to the parents to make the most of that opportunity. If your child is in a troubled school what is to stop you, the parent from providing extra help, tutoring, extracurricular educational opportunities? For some that might mean sending the kid to another school if they can afford it. I'll use your argument - if they want it bad enough, they can find a way. Many of the people who could make use of vouchers could likely afford private schools without the voucher. They are the ones with kids stuck in, not a bad school maybe, but mediocre and they want to switch to better. Vouchers do not tend to be enough to cover the full cost of tuition, books, uniforms so those who most need it still can't take advantage of it. And that is not even looking at transportation.

You did say that it would further class stratification here:

I will tell you how it would work: the poor schools will continue on the path to failure, the mediocre schools might or might not improve, the good schools will strongly improve and the end result will be an increasing chasm between the under-educated and the educated in terms of wealth and opportunity.

If that is not an argument about classes then I do not know what is. We most certainly DO NOT provide anything even close to a level playing field. That is why vouchers are so important, they give a chance to the disadvantaged to attend better schools in better arias. THAT gives people a level playing field. To continue to force poor children into crap schools is not giving people a level playing field, it is forcing people to stay in the class they are in. The good schools will not be the benefactors here; it is the poor and middle class that will benefit the most.

As to the options point, I agree. There are other opportunities like homeschooling even though those options are not as good as an actual school. It is difficult to teach children when you do not have the education to begin with so that option is a very poor one for the disadvantaged. Home school also lacks the very valuable interaction with other children and the hardships that come with dealing with them. Having that option does not mean that you should limit the alternatives. I believe that you should be provided with as many options and choices as possible. It gives you more power over your own fate.

Maybe we should simply bring all curriculums to the level of inner city schools and shut down private schools because individuals in the slums are getting further and further behind those that have the means to educate their children in private schools. This is completely un-American.

No one is arguing bringing everything to the lowest common denomenater. That's a false argument. Don't you think that the idea of subsidizing a select group of people at the cost of another group's right to an education is rather unAmerican as well? I believe in offering a level playing field - what each family does afterwards is up to them.

It is NOT subsidizing a select group; it is subsidizing EVERYONE with their own money! That is American, the ability to take your money where you want and make decisions on your own with your own money. That is called freedom.

If anything, vouchers would help the middle class the most. It would not help the well off much at all as they already have the means to send their children to private schools and get the best education.

Exactly. But it isn't the middle class that is stuck in the worst schools.

I see nothing in the voucher system that would do anything to improve public schools or prevent and increasing gap between the educated and uneducated.

You speak of things being unAmerican but one of the strengths of our country has always been education. We were among the first to offer and require education paid for by the state - for everyone regardless of birth, means, gender. Unlike other nations where class and birth helped or blocked social advancement - education was the key in America. An education could help a person escape poverty. That is something I am willling to subsidize because it is an opportunity offered to all.

Again, how is helping the middle class a bad thing? You continually mention this as if we should suppress the middle class in fear they are pulling ahead of the poor. It is up to everyone to reach their potential. It is defiantly not the job of the government to put up barriers to reaching that potential. That is what forcing people into specific public schools does.

Sorry for the late reply, internet is spotty over here as well as my free time.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

The only argument I see against it is funding of tuition for religious schools.

Here's a another - its called supply and demand.

If you provide everyone with $3000 a year to spend on private education - what do you think will happen to the cost of private education? it will probably go up about $3000 a year. The same exact thing happened with college tuition when student grants and loans became widely available.

If all the private schools in my area charge $5000 a year or more, and my voucher is only worth $3000, and I don't make shit for money - my kid just doesn't get an education I guess.

Or are you suggesting the government simply give vouchers that are big enough to cover whatever tuition a private school demands?


The soluation, IMO, is CHARTER SCHOOLS. The school itself operates on profit motive - but the students don't have to pay tuition.

 

[FA_Q2]

It is my money and I would rather chose where it goes. the workforce isn't educated now, cops respond to calls slower than pizza is delivered, and especially where I live (near new orleans) the roads suck.

And imagine what it would be like if there was no education for people. Public schools need fixing but it is far superior to nothing. The few people I have met that have never been to school or have not made it out of elementary were scary ignorant. To think that they had the right to vote makes me queasy. At least I can take some solace in the fact they may be to dumb to find the voting booth ;p

 

[FA_Q2]

School vouchers are pushed a lot for the wrong reason.

A big reason school vouchers are pushed is to route tax dollars to the private sector. Not necessarially to improve the childs education. Of course that is the reason given. The other one is not very sellable.

Exactly.

I'm against school vouchers because it's just another government giveaway to the private sector. School vouchers take my tax dollars and give them to the religious schools. This violates the seperation of church and state in my opinion. I don't want to pay for children to be indoctrinated in religion. I don't think my government should be paying for that.

I do not see a problem with this. It is the parent’s decision not the governments so I do not believe that it is a separation of church and state. It would be if the state said you can ONLY pick a religious school or was directing the money to a school of their choice. If it is the parent’s choice and the school meets whatever requirements for a school the government sets then it should be fair game.

Why is money going to the private sector a bad thing?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

hate hate hate this argument. Everybody benefits from having educated children.

most public schools now don't educate anyone and are a waste of time.

ANd people were paying for your kids when they went to school.

what if he home schooled or sent his kids to private school?

So sick of this "its my money". We all pay taxes, we all benefit from an educated workforce, security, roads, etc.

It is my money and I would rather chose where it goes. the workforce isn't educated now, cops respond to calls slower than pizza is delivered, and especially where I live (near new orleans) the roads suck.

I just wanna take this opportunity to say:


WHO DAT

I also confirm all he has said. The roads suck, the cops are useless, and people are idiots.

 

[FA_Q2]

The only argument I see against it is funding of tuition for religious schools.

Here's a another - its called supply and demand.

If you provide everyone with $3000 a year to spend on private education - what do you think will happen to the cost of private education? it will probably go up about $3000 a year. The same exact thing happened with college tuition when student grants and loans became widely available.

If all the private schools in my area charge $5000 a year or more, and my voucher is only worth $3000, and I don't make shit for money - my kid just doesn't get an education I guess.

Or are you suggesting the government simply give vouchers that are big enough to cover whatever tuition a private school demands?


The soluation, IMO, is CHARTER SCHOOLS. The school itself operates on profit motive - but the students don't have to pay tuition.

Personally, I believe the opposite would happen. Private schools would attempt to match their prices to the amount of the voucher in order to attract more business. You see it all the time with military bases and rent. Many homeowners and apartments around military bases all over the world adjust the rent to an amount that agrees with a soldiers housing pay in order to attract more renters. I believe the private industry would do exactly that in order to vastly expand the number of people attending.

And as a side note, I can see the merit of phasing out eligibility after a certain income point. That would alleviate some of the concern that the rich, who will send their children to private schools anyway, are getting some sort of kickback.