How an NRA mole infiltrated and pw0ned the Brady Campaign

[AllieBaba]

No, the gun deaths could have been prevented.

That's the difference.

Yes, they could have...if the victims had been armed and able to defend themselves!

Still waiting for some sort of explanation which will explain away the alarming fact that gun control steps hand in hand with increased gun murder rates....

 

[Gunny]

One million Americans have been killed by guns since 1960.

The NRA has killed many more Americans than Al Qaeda.

How many of those one million were unarmed citizens murdered by criminals?

Fair and balanced, that's you to a "t".

 

[Chris]

How many of those one million were unarmed citizens murdered by criminals?

Fair and balanced, that's you to a "t".

Most gun deaths are people killing themselves or a member of their family, so if you own a gun, you are much more likely to die of a gun death.

 

[Chris]

Yes, they could have...if the victims had been armed and able to defend themselves!

Still waiting for some sort of explanation which will explain away the alarming fact that gun control steps hand in hand with increased gun murder rates....

That is a lie. The Japanese have no guns and only a handful of gun murders.

Nice try, though.

 

[Gunny]

Most gun deaths are people killing themselves or a member of their family, so if you own a gun, you are much more likely to die of a gun death.

Speculation on your part, and IMO, highly unlikely. Not to mention illogical reasoning.

 

[Gunny]

That is a lie. The Japanese have no guns and only a handful of gun murders.

Nice try, though.

Japan is an island. Not TOO hard to isolate and contain. We can't even stop illegal PEOPLE from coming across our borders but you want to stop something smaller?

Brilliant.

When do we get to the part where you add some logic, common sense and reality to your rhetoric?

 

[Chris]

Japan is an island. Not TOO hard to isolate and contain. We can't even stop illegal PEOPLE from coming across our borders but you want to stop something smaller?

Brilliant.

When do we get to the part where you add some logic, common sense and reality to your rhetoric?

We should bring the troops home and put them on the Mexican border.

 

[Gunny]

We should bring the troops home and put them on the Mexican border.

Ever consider therapy?

 

[editec]

I can't help but note how this discussion has migrated from spying on an organziation to still another pointless discussion about gun control.

How convenient.

 

[William Joyce]

One million Americans have been killed by guns since 1960.

How does this break down by race, both perpetrator and victim?

 

[BrianH]

Japan is an island. Not TOO hard to isolate and contain. We can't even stop illegal PEOPLE from coming across our borders but you want to stop something smaller?

Brilliant.

When do we get to the part where you add some logic, common sense and reality to your rhetoric?

Not to mention that Japan has the highest suicide rate in the world.... Apparently, someone can kill without a gun.

 

[BrianH]

Sorry you have such poor math skills.



"During the 33-year period covered by this report, the total number of firearm deaths increased by 130%, from 16,720 in 1962 to 38,505 in 1994. If present trends continue, firearm-related injuries could become the leading cause of deaths attributed to injury by the year 2003, surpassing injuries due to motor vehicle crashes."

16,720 + 38,505 = 55,225 divided by 2 = 27,612, the average over the 33 year period, times 47 years between 1962 and 2008 = 1,297,764.

I could go back and add each year, but you get the idea.

IF a frog had wings, he wouldn't hit his ass when he jumped. If you didn't eat turds you'd still be full of shit.

 

[BrianH]

No, the gun deaths could have been prevented.

That's the difference.

Not prevented. The death would have simply been transfered to a knife death, hit and run, bow and arrow death, etc...If someone has it in their mind to kill you, they'll do it. Regardless if they have a gun or not. They'll use a hammer, a chainsaw, a knife, they could knock you out with the hammer and hang you from a rafter in your house. I think guns actually decreased violent crimes in society. Before guns, a frequent form of inflicting death was used. There are many others that were used, but I'm talking more about impaling.

It seems to me, that without the invention of guns, there would have been more inventive ideas for torturing and killing people. Impaling was extremely brutal. You could have quick death with them placing the sharp pole by your heart and impaling you. Or you could have a slow death, in which they take a blunt end, shove it in your rectum, and let your own body-weight cause the pole to work it's way to the top. This took days.

Kirk, guns do not kill people. Once again, a gun is an inanimate object...just like a knife, a cup-holder, a picture frame, etc.....It is inbcapable of using itelf. You could load a gun and place it on the table, and it would not fire or go off unless a human operates it. All gun accidents are caused by human error or human operation. If a three year old gets a hold of a gun, then it's the parents fault for having the gun where their three year old can get to it. If a gun falls out of your pocket at a restaurant and shoots the person at the table next to you...it's your fault. Not the guns. The gun will not go to trial and receive a sentence. You should have have the gun safely secured. Get the picture???

 

[Chris]

IF a frog had wings, he wouldn't hit his ass when he jumped. If you didn't eat turds you'd still be full of shit.

I can see you feel bad for the deaths of one million Americans.

 

[Chris]

Most murderers are not hired killers. Instead, killings happen during fights between rival gangs or angry spouses, or even from road rage, and leave deep regret in their wake. "How often might you appropriately use a gun in self-defense?" Hemenway asks rhetorically. "Answer: zero to once in a lifetime. How about inappropriately—because you were tired, afraid, or drunk in a confrontational situation? There are lots and lots of chances. When your anger takes over, it's nice not to have guns lying around."

Many suicides, similarly, are impulsive acts. Follow-up interviews with people who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge reveal that few of them tried suicide again. One survivor volunteered this epiphany after jumping: "I realized that all the problems I had in life were solvable—except one: I'm in midair." In the United States, suicide rates are high in states with an abundance of guns—southern and western mountain states, for example—and lower in places like New Jersey, New England, or Hawaii, where guns are relatively scarce. Nine case-control studies have shown that guns in the house are a risk factor for suicide. Firearms turn the agonizing into the irreversible.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2004/09/death-by-the-barrel.html

 

[BrianH]

Most murderers are not hired killers. Instead, killings happen during fights between rival gangs or angry spouses, or even from road rage, and leave deep regret in their wake. "How often might you appropriately use a gun in self-defense?" Hemenway asks rhetorically. "Answer: zero to once in a lifetime. How about inappropriately—because you were tired, afraid, or drunk in a confrontational situation? There are lots and lots of chances. When your anger takes over, it's nice not to have guns lying around."

Many suicides, similarly, are impulsive acts. Follow-up interviews with people who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge reveal that few of them tried suicide again. One survivor volunteered this epiphany after jumping: "I realized that all the problems I had in life were solvable—except one: I'm in midair." In the United States, suicide rates are high in states with an abundance of guns—southern and western mountain states, for example—and lower in places like New Jersey, New England, or Hawaii, where guns are relatively scarce. Nine case-control studies have shown that guns in the house are a risk factor for suicide. Firearms turn the agonizing into the irreversible.

Death by the Barrel  (September-October 2004)

To you scenario about using a guns for self-defence. So if the odds are that you would use one once in a lifetime for self defense, would that also show that using a gun once in your life time for self-defense also prevents death and extends/preserves your lifetime?

So it's obvious that you admit that people are to blame. The gun doesn't load itself, jump out of your window, run down the streat on imaginary legs and start shooting people...do I have this right. The highest suicide rate in the world is in Japan...an area with very very few guns. Make up your mind Kirk.

 

[Chris]

To you scenario about using a guns for self-defence. So if the odds are that you would use one once in a lifetime for self defense, would that also show that using a gun once in your life time for self-defense also prevents death and extends/preserves your lifetime?

So it's obvious that you admit that people are to blame. The gun doesn't load itself, jump out of your window, run down the streat on imaginary legs and start shooting people...do I have this right. The highest suicide rate in the world is in Japan...an area with very very few guns. Make up your mind Kirk.

The issue is gun deaths not suicide rates.

Guns make it easy to kill. Convienent. That's the way we like things. Pick up a gun and kill our spouse...or ourselves.

 

[BrianH]

The issue is gun deaths not suicide rates.

Guns make it easy to kill. Convienent. That's the way we like things. Pick up a gun and kill our spouse...or ourselves.

But you made suicide an issue when you brought up it's statistics in other threads about gun-control.

As far as making it easy to kill. Guns as opposed to what? You can pick up a knife and kill your spouse. You can pick up a hammer and kill your spouse. In fact, a story was posted here the other day about a man being stabbed to death in a bus, then beheaded. Personally, I'd rather see someone shot and killed than seeing someone being stabbed to death and beheaded. The point is, people are going to kill people or themselves regardless of what tool is used. Baseball bat, golf-club, knife, hammer, shovel, razor blades, etc...I knew a boy in school that hung himself from the rafter in his room. He could have easily used a gun to do so. People are going to kill...simple as that. Guns are not the issue. Now, do I favor stricter gun laws that would do more to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally unstable...without jeapordizing my right as a law abiding citizen to own a gun? Yes. Do I believe that guns are the devil and should be banned??? No.

The Japanese people aren't allowed to own guns. Could you imagine if an army ever invaded their country? The only people protecting them is their army. And if their army fails, they're toast. Could you have imagined what would have happened to the New England colonies had the colonists not been allowed to own guns?

 

[Chris]

Friday, April 17, 1998
U.S. Leads Richest Nations In Gun Deaths

BY CHELSEA J. CARTER
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

ATLANTA -- The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found.
The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000.
The study, done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, is the first comprehensive international look at gun-related deaths. It was published Thursday in the International Journal of Epidemiology.
The CDC would not speculate why the death rates varied, but other researchers said easy access to guns and society's acceptance of violence are part of the problem in the United States.
``If you have a country saturated with guns -- available to people when they are intoxicated, angry or depressed -- it's not unusual guns will be used more often,'' said Rebecca Peters, a Johns Hopkins University fellow specializing in gun violence. ``This has to be treated as a public health emergency.''
The National Rifle Association called the study shoddy because it failed to examine all causes of violent deaths.
``What this shows is the CDC is after guns. They aren't concerned with violence. It's pretending that no homicide exists unless it's related to guns,'' said Paul Blackman, a research coordinator for the NRA in Fairfax, Va.
The 36 countries chosen were listed as the richest in the World Bank's 1994 World Development Report, with the highest GNP per capita income.
The study used 1994 statistics supplied by the 36 countries. Of the 88,649 gun deaths reported by all the countries, the United States accounted for 45 percent, said Etienne Krug, a CDC researcher and co-author of the article.
Japan, where very few people own guns, averages 124 gun-related attacks a year, and less than 1 percent end in death. Police often raid the homes of those suspected of having weapons.
The study found that gun-related deaths were five to six times higher in the Americas than in Europe or Australia and New Zealand and 95 times higher than in Asia.
Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

 

[BrianH]

Friday, April 17, 1998
U.S. Leads Richest Nations In Gun Deaths

BY CHELSEA J. CARTER
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

ATLANTA -- The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found.
The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000.
The study, done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, is the first comprehensive international look at gun-related deaths. It was published Thursday in the International Journal of Epidemiology.
The CDC would not speculate why the death rates varied, but other researchers said easy access to guns and society's acceptance of violence are part of the problem in the United States.
``If you have a country saturated with guns -- available to people when they are intoxicated, angry or depressed -- it's not unusual guns will be used more often,'' said Rebecca Peters, a Johns Hopkins University fellow specializing in gun violence. ``This has to be treated as a public health emergency.''
The National Rifle Association called the study shoddy because it failed to examine all causes of violent deaths.
``What this shows is the CDC is after guns. They aren't concerned with violence. It's pretending that no homicide exists unless it's related to guns,'' said Paul Blackman, a research coordinator for the NRA in Fairfax, Va.
The 36 countries chosen were listed as the richest in the World Bank's 1994 World Development Report, with the highest GNP per capita income.
The study used 1994 statistics supplied by the 36 countries. Of the 88,649 gun deaths reported by all the countries, the United States accounted for 45 percent, said Etienne Krug, a CDC researcher and co-author of the article.
Japan, where very few people own guns, averages 124 gun-related attacks a year, and less than 1 percent end in death. Police often raid the homes of those suspected of having weapons.
The study found that gun-related deaths were five to six times higher in the Americas than in Europe or Australia and New Zealand and 95 times higher than in Asia.
Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

More stats NOT based on the fact that PEOPLE are behind the violence. Not a top-secret conspiracy by my shotgun. If guns didn't exist, the U.S. would still lead other countries in some other type of murder...by knife, hammer, explosives, etc... We would also still be stabbing each other with swords and more other inventive weapons.