Hmmm...I thought churches didn't have to worry about performing gay marriages...what about this...

[Rikurzhen]

Excellent news everyone:

The city has been embroiled in controversy ever since the owners of the Hitching Post sued the city. They say a city anti-discrimination law threatened to force them to marry same-sex couples now that gay marriage is legal in Idaho.

The story lit up conservative and gay-rights blogs. Wedding chapel owners Donald and Evelyn Knapp said they feared jail time or fines if they declined marriage services to a same-sex couple.

Initially, the city said its anti-discrimination law did apply to the Hitching Post, since it is a commercial business. Earlier this week, Coeur d'Alene city attorney Mike Gridley sent a letter to the Knapps’ attorneys at the Alliance Defending Freedom saying the Hitching Post would have to become a not-for-profit to be exempt.

But Gridley said after further review, he determined the ordinance doesn’t specify non-profit or for-profit.

“After we've looked at this some more, we have come to the conclusion they would be exempt from our ordinance because they are a religious corporation,” Gridley explained.​

The first crack in the totalitarian wall that liberals are erecting to violate people's human rights. A commercial business now has license to exercise its right of free association. All great human rights struggles have to start somewhere. Now we need a court to legitimize the city's interpretation.

We can borrow a tactic from the human right oppressing left - the city lawyer declines to defend public accommodation law and then the business wins by default.

The next step in expanding human rights protections is to expand this notion of religious corporations. My human rights to free association are just as important as this business rights to associate on the basis of religion, so a religious corporation designation next needs to be expanded to all corporations, a right to free association is afforded to everyone to exercise as they please.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Besides, UNLESS you are running a business that does some type of marriage related service, you probably would not even know for sure if a person is gay or not, other than just making an educated guess, but that is no guarantee.

I don't need a reason to choose my associations, just like you don't need a reason to pick one guy over another guy. I certainly don't need to justify myself, nor does any business owner. We're fighting to overthrow liberal oppression of human rights.

 

[ChrisL]

Besides, UNLESS you are running a business that does some type of marriage related service, you probably would not even know for sure if a person is gay or not, other than just making an educated guess, but that is no guarantee.

I don't need a reason to choose my associations, just like you don't need a reason to pick one guy over another guy. I certainly don't need to justify myself, nor does any business owner. We're fighting to overthrow liberal oppression of human rights.

No, you just like to make people feel bad. That's what I think.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No one, far right or far left can impose in the public square their personal standards on people who don't accept their standards.

Only We the People through the faculty of our government can impose such standards, as guided by our Constitution.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I agree, wouldn't be smart business. Now, tell me why you believe the government has the right to stop people from being stupid.

You have every right to put up a sign discriminating against fat people and you will subsequently either pay out a huge settlement or they will end up owning your business.

Since you came up with that idiotic scenario it is patently obvious that you have never run a business of your own.

I in fact own a restaurant, and can you with certainty that where I live you can discriminate against fat people.

Are you too stupid to understand that the way the laws are written unless the law SPECIFICALLY says that you can't discriminate for X reason, you CAN discriminate for that reason?

Do you make moral judgments about specific people or groups of people and refuse them service? If so, why? Just to be mean to them, or to make them feel bad? For what purpose would you want to do this?

Do you date 98 pound weaklings or body-builders? Why do you choose one over the other? Justify your taste in men and let us judge you on your answer.

You are crazy. Preferences for personal relationships are completely different than business practices.

Oh really? so you're personal preferences had no part in your decision as to what kind of business you are in?

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Besides, UNLESS you are running a business that does some type of marriage related service, you probably would not even know for sure if a person is gay or not, other than just making an educated guess, but that is no guarantee.

I don't need a reason to choose my associations, just like you don't need a reason to pick one guy over another guy. I certainly don't need to justify myself, nor does any business owner. We're fighting to overthrow liberal oppression of human rights.

No, you just like to make people feel bad. That's what I think.

At NO point have either Rik or myself said that we would personally discriminate?

I'm sorry you're so dishonest that the only rights you defend are those which YOU wish to partake of.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

No one, far right or far left can impose in the public square their personal standards on people who don't accept their standards.

Only We the People through the faculty of our government can impose such standards, as guided by our Constitution.

Jake, you damn well know the government doesn't have the right to tell me who I must associate with simply because I'm a business. Be honest for probably the first time since I've been here.

 

[ChrisL]

Besides, UNLESS you are running a business that does some type of marriage related service, you probably would not even know for sure if a person is gay or not, other than just making an educated guess, but that is no guarantee.

I don't need a reason to choose my associations, just like you don't need a reason to pick one guy over another guy. I certainly don't need to justify myself, nor does any business owner. We're fighting to overthrow liberal oppression of human rights.

No, you just like to make people feel bad. That's what I think.

At NO point have either Rik or myself said that we would personally discriminate?

I'm sorry you're so dishonest that the only rights you defend are those which YOU wish to partake of.

What are you talking about? That post makes no sense since I'm not gay. I think all humans should be treated equally if they are not harming others. What's the problem?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your opinion, bub, is not the law. We the People in our legislatures and our courts disagree with you,

You are out of step, not everyone else.

 

[ChrisL]

No one, far right or far left can impose in the public square their personal standards on people who don't accept their standards.

Only We the People through the faculty of our government can impose such standards, as guided by our Constitution.

Jake, you damn well know the government doesn't have the right to tell me who I must associate with simply because I'm a business. Be honest for probably the first time since I've been here.

Fine, be hateful. Hopefully the word gets out.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Besides, UNLESS you are running a business that does some type of marriage related service, you probably would not even know for sure if a person is gay or not, other than just making an educated guess, but that is no guarantee.

I don't need a reason to choose my associations, just like you don't need a reason to pick one guy over another guy. I certainly don't need to justify myself, nor does any business owner. We're fighting to overthrow liberal oppression of human rights.

No, you just like to make people feel bad. That's what I think.

At NO point have either Rik or myself said that we would personally discriminate?

I'm sorry you're so dishonest that the only rights you defend are those which YOU wish to partake of.

What are you talking about? That post makes no sense since I'm not gay. I think all humans should be treated equally if they are not harming others. What's the problem?

Who said you were gay? I fear I must conclude that you are illiterate.

 

[ChrisL]

Besides, UNLESS you are running a business that does some type of marriage related service, you probably would not even know for sure if a person is gay or not, other than just making an educated guess, but that is no guarantee.

I don't need a reason to choose my associations, just like you don't need a reason to pick one guy over another guy. I certainly don't need to justify myself, nor does any business owner. We're fighting to overthrow liberal oppression of human rights.

No, you just like to make people feel bad. That's what I think.

At NO point have either Rik or myself said that we would personally discriminate?

I'm sorry you're so dishonest that the only rights you defend are those which YOU wish to partake of.

What are you talking about? That post makes no sense since I'm not gay. I think all humans should be treated equally if they are not harming others. What's the problem?

Who said you were gay? I fear I must conclude that you are illiterate.

You said rights that I can partake in, right? What were you referring to then?

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Your opinion, bub, is not the law. We the People in our legislatures and our courts disagree with you,

You are out of step, not everyone else.

At one time, slavery was the law. Thankfully a Republican President rectified that.

Point being the law isn't always correct Jake.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

No one, far right or far left can impose in the public square their personal standards on people who don't accept their standards.

Only We the People through the faculty of our government can impose such standards, as guided by our Constitution.

Jake, you damn well know the government doesn't have the right to tell me who I must associate with simply because I'm a business. Be honest for probably the first time since I've been here.

Fine, be hateful. Hopefully the word gets out.

That is exactly how it should be handled. If George the barkeep wants to refuse to serve blacks, let him, that's his right. It's your right to go picket his ass. It isn't your right to bludgeon him with an illegal law.

 

[ChrisL]

No one, far right or far left can impose in the public square their personal standards on people who don't accept their standards.

Only We the People through the faculty of our government can impose such standards, as guided by our Constitution.

Jake, you damn well know the government doesn't have the right to tell me who I must associate with simply because I'm a business. Be honest for probably the first time since I've been here.

Fine, be hateful. Hopefully the word gets out.

That is exactly how it should be handled. If George the barkeep wants to refuse to serve blacks, let him, that's his right. It's your right to go picket his ass. It isn't your right to bludgeon him with an illegal law.

Okay, that's fine. If you want to be a dick, then so be it. Perhaps there shouldn't be laws, but there are laws about discriminatory business practices already in place. Businesses that cater to the public have to follow some rules. What if a store like Walmart decides to discriminate? What if the only grocery store in town does it? What do those poor people do? Just because some jerk business owner is a dick, means they have to suffer? What's the big deal about doing business with a gay person or a fat person or whatever? You aren't sleeping with them. Also, gay is not contagious.

 

[ChrisL]

Pfft . . . these guys . . . I'll bet you they wouldn't think two hot lesbians were "yucky" and turn them away.

 

[Derideo_Te]

See, here's where "public accommodation" laws are fucked up.

What in the world makes you believe I don't have the right to discriminate? Of COURSE I have a right to discriminate.

Can I hang a sign outside my business that says "I don't serve fat people?"

In most places yes.

However you can't hang a sign outside your shop saying "I don't serve "Ni**ers" or "I don't serve Christians"- you would have legal problems.

I'm not sure, but I don't think you can refuse to serve fat people either. I've never heard of such a thing. Why any smart business owner would want to use discriminatory business practice is unfathomable. It is not very smart business.

I agree, wouldn't be smart business. Now, tell me why you believe the government has the right to stop people from being stupid.

You have every right to put up a sign discriminating against fat people and you will subsequently either pay out a huge settlement or they will end up owning your business.

Since you came up with that idiotic scenario it is patently obvious that you have never run a business of your own.

I in fact own a restaurant, and can you with certainty that where I live you can discriminate against fat people.

Are you too stupid to understand that the way the laws are written unless the law SPECIFICALLY says that you can't discriminate for X reason, you CAN discriminate for that reason?

No wonder restaurants have such a high failure rate when they are run by ignorant bigots.

Yes, you can post that sign and yes, you can be sued because you chose to discriminate. There are plenty of lawyers who are only too willing to take up a case such as this purely for the sake of setting a precedent and making a name for themselves. They will argue that you discriminated against their client who was suffering from a disability. It really doesn't matter what legal basis they use because what really matters is that they will cost you a lot of money and the bad publicity could even put you out of business. It is a lose-lose for you no matter what the outcome.

So yes, go right ahead and destroy your business through your own abject stupidity.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

No one, far right or far left can impose in the public square their personal standards on people who don't accept their standards.

Only We the People through the faculty of our government can impose such standards, as guided by our Constitution.

Jake, you damn well know the government doesn't have the right to tell me who I must associate with simply because I'm a business. Be honest for probably the first time since I've been here.

Fine, be hateful. Hopefully the word gets out.

That is exactly how it should be handled. If George the barkeep wants to refuse to serve blacks, let him, that's his right. It's your right to go picket his ass. It isn't your right to bludgeon him with an illegal law.

Okay, that's fine. If you want to be a dick, then so be it. Perhaps there shouldn't be laws, but there are laws about discriminatory business practices already in place. Businesses that cater to the public have to follow some rules. What if a store like Walmart decides to discriminate? What if the only grocery store in town does it? What do those poor people do? Just because some jerk business owner is a dick, means they have to suffer? What's the big deal about doing business with a gay person or a fat person or whatever? You aren't sleeping with them. Also, gay is not contagious.

You seem to be having a problem with what should be a fairly simple concept here

Just because I defend the RIGHT to discriminate does NOT mean I would discriminate. Why you can't understand that is beyond comprehension. I mean are you gay? You defend their right to marry, so you must be gay by your own "logic"

 

[Andylusion]

I don't care what the city says. I don't care what you say. We're not going to perform gay marriage.... Period. Jail us. Attack us. Smear us. Whatever you want.

We have a right to run business. We have a right to our religion and beliefs. You don't have a say in the matter.

We're not doing it. Period. You'll have to jail millions of Christians across this country. We're not going away, and we're not going to follow your laws. Sucks to be you.

It's not a "church" Androw. It's a wedding chapel which is a business that marries people. IF gay marriage is legal there, then they are using discriminatory business practices which is illegal.

Don't care. I said that the first time, and I'll say it every time here after.

Church, business, hobby. It's mine. My hobby... my business.. my church. Not yours. You don't have a right to tell me what to do with it.

"well that law says..."

Don't care.

"but it's not a church..."

Don't care.

"but discrimination...."

I DO NOT CARE.

I have a religious view, and it's not up for debate. That's what freedom of religion means. I can believe the moon is full of hamsters, and Obama is an alien hamster controlling the government, if I so desire to have a such a view.

We are not going to do gay marriage, those of use who believe in the Biblical Christian faith. We not doing it. PERIOD.

Not doing it. PERIOD. Not up for debate, I don't care about your reasons. Not happening.

Well guess what Androw? Discrimination IS against the law. The LAW doesn't care if you don't care. What are you so frightened about? Don't worry, nobody with half a brain would want to join your exclusive little club of judgmental jerks. That is why your churches are losing parishioners. People are realizing that it is not "Godly" to treat other people like crap.

Um... actually my church is growing. So... apparently people are realizing that it IS Godly. lol
I'm not frightened at all!

If I was scared... then I'd be worried about your laws, and your courts, and your regulations and statutes and anti-discrimination rules.
If I was really worried, I'd be asking these laws be repealed. I haven't said that at all.

I'm not. I'm just telling you straight up, I'm not scared, not going to follow your laws, and you are not going to stop me. Make all the laws you wish. Not going to follow them. Oh well.

And I don't care if no one joins my "exclusive little club of judgmental jerks" or not. I don't live my life to please you. If you think I'm terrible..... ok. If you think I'm great.... ok. I'm good either way.

Now, I'm not intentionally trying to piss people off, but I'm also not going to squeeze myself into whatever mold you demand. I'm going to live out my faith. You can like it, or hate it, but you are not going to change it.

Don't care what laws you pass. Not going to follow them. Don't care what fines you give. I'm not going to pay them.

Nobody is asking you to squeeze into any mold. Just don't treat people like crap. They are no less "people" created by God than you are. You don't have to personally approve of another person or their lifestyle, but that doesn't give the right to discriminate against them either, when their actions are NOT hurting anyone else.

It's not about them.

It's about me following G-d's commands. He says, do this... I do it as best I can. He says don't do that... I don't do that.

I am not supposed to be involved in activities that are consider sinful and abhorrent to G-d. Therefore..... I will not be involved in those activities.

If you think that's treating others like crap... oh well. I'd rather you hate me, than G-d hate me. He can inflict far worse punishment on me, than you, or the entire country, could ever do.

So.... I'm going to follow him, before worrying about what you or anyone else thinks, even the courts, police, and politicians.

 

[Andylusion]

I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.

So I don't give a crap what you think it is.

Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.

Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap

The article you cited lied.

You don't care.

You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.

Just more crap from Conservatives.

No, I wanted you to tell me if the article was true, or false, and provide evidence.

Either the city officials did, or did not, tell them that they must marry gay couples. It's either true, or false. You claim they lied.

Ok. Please explain the following letter written to them from the City Attorney's office.
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappCityAttorneyLetter.pdf

The letter makes it clear that if they are operating their Chapel as a for-profit business, that they are required to marry gay couples.

Was the letter from the Attorney's office a lie?

If the entire thing, every bit of evidence is a lie... then I respectfully accept your position. That's a heck of a lot of people that all lied, and only you on an internet forum have the truth.

I doubt they all lied, and only you are telling the truth.

As for 'more crap from conservatives'... oh no.... no no no. I'm far far worse than that. I'm a true Bible believing Christian. Conservatism is a political ideological belief system that encompasses dozens of topics, all of which I'd be more than willing to debate and discuss with you.

This.... is about true faith. It's not an abstract ideal for me. It's true worship of G-d in Heaven.

No, I'm not here to discuss my beliefs, or my religious views. I'm not here to debate practice of my faith, or the merits thereof.

No, I'm just here to TELL YOU what my faith is, and that I am going to practice it, with or without it being legal, or your approval.

I won't give my life for 'conservatism', but I most certainly will give my life for my faith. Allow me to make that crystal clear, in no uncertain or ambiguous terms. I will DIE over this issue. If you fine me, I won't pay the fine. If you fail me, I'll go gladly, but I won't follow your rules on this. When I get out of jail, I'll go right back to practicing my faith.

I will operate my church, run my business, and provide my services, to whomever I please, and refuse when it violates my faith. If you send me to prison for 20 years, when I get out, I'll resume my business, and still deny gay marriage, and there is nothing you will do to prevent it. I'll go back to prison for another 20 years, or the rest of my life. But I'm not going to follow this evil immoral law, no matter what.

And that.... is all there is to it.

I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.

So I don't give a crap what you think it is.

Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.

Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap

The article you cited lied.

You don't care.

You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.

Just more crap from Conservatives.

No, I wanted you to tell me if the article was true, or false, and provide evidence.

Either the city officials did, or did not, tell them that they must marry gay couples. It's either true, or false. You claim they lied.

Ok. Please explain the following letter written to them from the City Attorney's office.
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappCityAttorneyLetter.pdf

The letter makes it clear that if they are operating their Chapel as a for-profit business, that they are required to marry gay couples.

Was the letter from the Attorney's office a lie?

If the entire thing, every bit of evidence is a lie... then I respectfully accept your position. That's a heck of a lot of people that all lied, and only you on an internet forum have the truth.

I doubt they all lied, and only you are telling the truth.

As for 'more crap from conservatives'... oh no.... no no no. I'm far far worse than that. I'm a true Bible believing Christian. Conservatism is a political ideological belief system that encompasses dozens of topics, all of which I'd be more than willing to debate and discuss with you.

This.... is about true faith. It's not an abstract ideal for me. It's true worship of G-d in Heaven.

No, I'm not here to discuss my beliefs, or my religious views. I'm not here to debate practice of my faith, or the merits thereof.

No, I'm just here to TELL YOU what my faith is, and that I am going to practice it, with or without it being legal, or your approval.

I won't give my life for 'conservatism', but I most certainly will give my life for my faith. Allow me to make that crystal clear, in no uncertain or ambiguous terms. I will DIE over this issue. If you fine me, I won't pay the fine. If you fail me, I'll go gladly, but I won't follow your rules on this. When I get out of jail, I'll go right back to practicing my faith.

I will operate my church, run my business, and provide my services, to whomever I please, and refuse when it violates my faith. If you send me to prison for 20 years, when I get out, I'll resume my business, and still deny gay marriage, and there is nothing you will do to prevent it. I'll go back to prison for another 20 years, or the rest of my life. But I'm not going to follow this evil immoral law, no matter what.

And that.... is all there is to it.

Who do you imagine is threatening you?

I never said anyone was threatening me. I was simply stating what my position, and what my intentions are, regardless of threat or not.

If no one threatens my faith values... Great. If everyone threatens... Great. I intend to live out my faith, regardless of anything else.

Okay let me state mine.

I don't care if the law tells me that I have to beat up and kill homosexuals- I am not going to do it.

I don't care if Christians threaten my life or my livelihood because I believe in equal marriage rights for homosexuals- I will still continue to support them.

I also don't care if aliens invade the earth and want us to bow to the Great Spaghetti Monster in the Sky- I won't do it.

I intend to live to my principles.

Yippy skippy! I have no problem with any of that. If only you respected others to follow their beliefs, as I do yours.