History of Israel/Palestine and the Jewish Presence in Israel/Palestine

[Shogun]

it means that germans were able to go with the flow despite the travesty happening to the jews equally as easy as these people seem to be able to go with the flow for the sake of israel despite the travesty happening to the pals. In the case of Germany it was all for the master race. In the case of israel it is for the chosen race. same shit, different shoe.

is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. During Groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking. A variety of motives for this may exist such as a desire to avoid being seen as foolish, or a desire to avoid embarrassing or angering other members of the group. Groupthink may cause groups to make hasty, irrational decisions, where individual doubts are set aside, for fear of upsetting the group’s balance. The term is frequently used pejoratively, with hindsight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

 

[doniston]

What is is Mazada? What is the Western wall? What about the recently discovered Herrod Tomb? Are you also going to deny the records the Persians have on Cyrus the Great? Greeks on Alexander the Great?

I am not talking any miracles like the parting of the red seas or the resurrection of Christ. I am talking about the cold hard facts of history of the time. With you same reasoning we can state that anything that has happened in ancient history can be considered! That is crap.




Not only Europe, but also the Middle East. But the Jews are originated from Israel! Bottom line. You can deny the disporas all you want, that does make your interpretations turn. What you will also deny is that many Arabs migrated to the Palestine during the late 1800s and early 1900s! You will also not cry to the fact that most Jewish lands in Arab countries were confiscated and the Jews were murdered and exiled from their lands during the same time period!




WRONG, the Jews came to Europe as exciles from their lands. As slaves in the Roman expire etc. The Christians came freely and most really were converts and nationals were nationals of the country they have been in. Islam came to Europe as immigrants to start a new life.


Genocide!!! God your dense! Genocide is the mass extermination of people on a rapid bases. I don't have time right now to look up the stats, but both the Israeli Arabs and Palestinian populations are growing more rapidly than the Jewish Israeli populations!. LOL if they are committing genocide they are doing a piss-poor job if it.



We did it for the black slaves in Liberia! And the Jews have been BY FAR the most persecuted people of all time. Second to none.


Of course you don't, just like you don't care who the Jews really descended from. Ignorance is bliss.


First off there is nothing even close to a genocide, so you sound like an ignorant anti-semite when you state it. So I suggest, for your creditability stake you pick a better argument
Second, the Pals (direct descendants of the Arab Crusaders) took the lands under the sword. That is theft no less, no?


Germany is not the Jewish homeland. Besides the Holocaust was the 2nd genocide the Germans committed against the Jews, why would they want to remain their when anti-semitism is still very very high.



The problem stated when the Jews were systematically kicked off their lands, mass-murdered and exciled, but the Assyrians, Babloyians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs Crusaders and Christian Crusaders.

After the Babloyians and Assyrians conquered Israel, the Jews fought back with the Persian to get their homeland back. They did the same when the Greeks and succeed. They tried it with the Romans when they tightened their rule. They did it again against the Byzantines and Persians. Any were back-stabbed by both people. Why would you think the would quit now? The Jews have been on a constant struggle to get their homeland back, since 586 BC. To which they have had many semi-autonmous rules and a few temporary independent states!

your opposition is doing fine without my help, but Just one point of order.

THERE IS NO TIME ELEMENT IN GENOCIDE. Slow or fast, the effect is still genocide.

 

[Ruby]

Every state in the ME was created by Europeans with a map and a pen.

As such, all of them have an equal degree of legitimacy, an equal claim to sovereignty, and an equal right to self-defense.

If ONE of these countries doesnt have a right to exist because it was "plopped down" through various international agreements, then NONE of them have a right to exist.

No it wasnt, that land and people didnt just begin to exist because europe created them! Europe DID intefere and did create borders but as long as the colonizing power withdraws and leaves people to SELF-DETERMINE then those borders (or new ones the residents create) are indeed legitimate because the PEOPLE there who are the legitimate community have decided by their OWN POWER, WILL, AND PROCESSES.

 

[Ruby]

If "homeland" is the bases of the Palestinian argument, then history begins before 1948. How far back do YOU think is OK to look?

No you are just trying to pinpoint where you want, its an ONGOING problem that begun even before 1948 and original owners and their legitimate heirs are still there in refugee status and want to go home. They should be allowed to go home and when all the palestinians have returned to Israel and the ENTIRE community get to determine their future (jews included) THEN we will have a fair solution based on inclusion of ALL who have legitimate claim.

The reason Israel wont allow those legitimate palestinians back in is because they know if their will is part of the self determination, they wont get to keep their racist "jews only" state.

The palestinians were CURRENT residents who lived there going back for thousands of years and they are STILL there and still retain their rights of return (as international law recognizes).

Why would there be an outcry over Israelis moving into and settling Israeli land?
Why would there be an issue with Israel putting up a wall to keep terrorists out?

First they arent using their OWN land, they are destroying more palestinian farms to do and cutting off owners from their own lands. I wonder what the reaction would be if Palestinians were building a huge wall that cut Isreali communities in half, took their land away, cut farmers off from their farms, destroyed Israeli farms etc.

Afterall, Israel commits plenty of terrorism against palestinians.

They arent settling Israeli land, they are settling Palestinian land. Isreal wont claim its permanant borders because it keeps expanding so they can push Palestinians into the sea. Actions always speak louder than words dont ya think?

Perhaps the Palestinians should have thought of that a little more over the last 40 years, rather than trying to realize their dream of the total destruction of Israel.

No Isreal shouldnt have totally destroyed Palestine. Palestinians have no choice but to defend themselves.

There are zillions of Palestinians in Jordan, which was the "Palestinian state" prior to 1967. If you are truly worried about the (non-existent) genocide of the Palestinians, why don't you suggest they go back to their original country?

Bullshit, palestinians are a seperate people and are entitled to stay on the same land they have lived on for thousands of years and were forced off of. Isreal IS their original country.

Here is a list of the original palestinian towns that were destroyed to make Israel and you will notice they are NOT IN JORDAN.

http://www.doublestandards.org/villages.html

District of al-Quds (Jerusalem): 37 localities
Al-Jura (420) - [Ora]
Al-Maliha (1940) - [Manahat]
Al-Qabu (260)
Al-Qastal (90)
Al-Walaja (1650) - [Amminadav]
Allar (x)
Aqqur (40)
Artuf (350) - [Naham/Har Tuv]
Beit Itab (540)
Beit Mahsir (2400) - [Beit Me'ir]
Beit Naqquba (240) - [Beit Neqofa]
Beit Thul (260)
Beit Umm al-Meis (70)
Bureij (720)
Deir al-Hawa (60)
Deir ash-Sheikh (220)
Deir Rafat (430)
Deir Yasin (610) - [Kefar Shaul]
Deiraban (2100) - [Mahseya]
Ein Karim (3180) - [Ein Kerem]
Ishwa (620) - [Eshta'ol]
Islin (260)
Jarash (190)
Kasla (280) - [Kesalon]
Khirbet al-Lauz (450)
Khirbet al-Umur (270)
Khirbet Deir Amr (10) - [Etanim]
Khirbet Ismallah (20)
Khirbet Nataf (40)
Lifta (2550) - [Me-Neftoah]
Qaluniya (910)
- [Mevassert Jerushal.]
Ras Abu Ammar (620)
Sar'a (340)
Saris (560) - [Shoresh]
Sataf (450)
Suba (620) - [Zova]
Sufla (60)


District of al-Khalil (Hebron): 15 localities
Ajjur (3730)
Al-Qubeiba (1060) - [Lakhish]
Barqusiya (330)
Beit Jibrin (2430) - [Beit Guvrin]
Beit Nattif (2150) - [Netiv B"L]
Deir ad-Dubban (730)
Deir Nakhkhas (600)
Kidna (450)
Mughallis (540)
Ra'na (190)
Tall as-Safi (1290)
Zakariya (1180) - [Kefar Zekharya]
Zeita (330)
Zikrin (960)
Ad-Dawayima (3710) - [Amazya]


District of Gaza: 45 localities
Al-Faluja (4670)
Al-Jiya (1230) - [Ge'a]
Al-Jura (2420) - [Ashkelon]
Al-Masmiya al-Kabira (2510)
- [Mashmia' Shalom]
Al-Masmiya al-Saghira (530)
- [Kefar Ha-Rif]
Al-Muharraqa (580)
As-Sawafir al-Gharbiya (1030)
- [Merkaz Shapira]
As-Sawafir ash-Shamaliya (680)
As-Sawafir ash-Sharquiya (960)
- [En Zurim]
Barbara (2410) - [Mavqi'im]
Barqa (890) - [Gan Yavne]
Batani al-Gharbi (980) - [Azriqam]
Batani ash-Sharqi (650)
Beit Affa (700) - [Yad Natan]
Beit Daras (2750)
Beit Jirya (940)
Beit Tima (1060)
Bi'lin (180)
Bureir (2740)
Deir Suneid (730)
Dimra (520) - [Erez]
Haj (810)
Hamama (5010) - [Ashqelon-Barnea]
Hatta (970) - [Rewaha]
Hirbiya (2240) - [Karmiya]
Huleiqat (420)
Ibdis (540)
Iraq al-Manshiya (2010)
Iraq Suweidan (660)
Isdud (4630)
Jaladiya (360) - [Zeharya]
Julis (1030) - [Hodiya]
Juseir (1180) - [Menuha]
Karatiya (1370)
Kaufakha (500)
Kaukaba (680) - [Kokhav]
Khirbet al-Khisas (150)
Najd (620)
Ni'iliya (1310)
Qastina (890)
Summeil (950) - [Nahala]
Sumsum (1290)
Tall al-Turmus (760) - [Arugot]
Yasur (1070)


District of Tulkarm: 10 localities
Kafr Saba (1270) - [Kefar Saba]
Kh. al-Jalama (70) - [Lahavot Haviva]
Kh. al-Manshiya (260) -[Giv'at Hayyim]
Khirbet Beit Lid (460) - [Nordiya]
Khirbet Zalafa (210) - [Giv'at Hayyim]
Miska (880)
Qaqun (1970) - [Yikkon]
Tabsar (x) - [Ra'anana]
Kafr Saba (1270) ' [Kefar Sava]
Umm Khalid (970) - [Netanya]


District of Ramleh: 54 ocalities
A.. Fadl as-Sautariya (x)
- [Talme Menashe]
Abu Shusha (870)
Al-Barriya (510) - [Azarya]
Al-Burj (480)
Al-Haditha (760) - [Hadid]
Al-Kheima (190)
Al-Kuneisiya (40)
Al-Latrun (390)
Al-Mansura (90)
Al-Mughar (1740)
Al-Mukheizin (200) - [Yad Binyamin]
Al-Muzeiri'a - [Mazor]
Al-Qubab (1980) - [Kefar Bin Nun]
Al-Qubeiba (1720) - [Kefar Gebirol]
Al-Tira (1290) - [Bareqet]
Aqir (2480) - [Qiryat Eqron]
At-Tina (750)
Bashshit (1620) - [Aseret]
Beit Jiz (550) - [Har'el]
Beit Nabala (2310) - [Beit Nehemya]
Beit Shanna (210)
Beit Susin (210) - [Ta'oz]
Bir Ma'in (510)
Bir Salim (x) - [Nezer Sereni]
Burfiliya (730)
Daniyal (410) - [Kefar Daniel]
Deir Abu Salama (60)
Deir Aiyub (320)
Deir Muheisin (460)
Deir Tarif (1750) - [Beit Arif]
Idhnibba (490)
Innaba (1420)
Jilya (330)
Jimzu (1510) - [Gimzo]
Jindas (x) - [Ginnaton]
Kharruba (170)
Khirbet adh-Dhuheiriya (100)
Khirbet al-Buweira (190)
Khulda (280) - [Mishmar David]
Majdal Yaba (1520) - [Rosh Ha-Ayin]
N... (1470)
Nabi Rubin (1420)
Qatra (1210) - [Gedera]
Qazaza (940)
Qula (1010)
Sajad (370)
Salbit (510) - [Shal'avim]
Sarafand al-Amar (1950)
Sarafand al-Kharab (1040) - [Nes Ziona]
Seidun (210)
Shahma (280) - [Qidron]
Shilta (100)
Yibna (5420) - [Yavne]
Zarnuqa (2380)


District of Jaffa: 19 localities
Al-Haram (520) - [Reshef]
Al-Kheiriya (1420)
Al-Mirr (170) - [Kefar Ha-Baptistim]
Al-Yahudiya (5650) - [Yehud]
As-Safiriya (3070)
Beit Dajan (3840) - [Beit Dagan]
Biyar Adas (300) - [Ganne Am]
Fajja (1200) - [Petah Tikva]
Jalil (470) - [Gelilot]
Jammasin (1810) - [Tel Aviv]
Kafr Ana (2800) - [Neve Efrayim]
Rantiya (590) - [Nofekh]
Salama (6670) - [Kefar Shalem]
Saqiya (1100) - [Or Yehuda]
Sheikh Muwannis (1930) - [Ramat Aviv]
Yazur (4030) - [Azor]


District of Haifa: 45 localities
? Ein Ghazal (2170) - [Ofer]
Abu Shusha (720) - [Mishmar Ha'Emeq]
Abu Zureiq (550) - [Nahala'ot]
Al-Buteimat (110) - [Regavim]
Al-Kafrin (920)
Al-Khureiba (x)
Al-Mansi (1200) - [Midrakh Oz]
Al-Mazar (210)
Al-Tira (5270)
Al-Waraqani (x) - [Kefar Barukh]
An-Naghnaghiya
Ar-Rihaniya (240) - [Ein Ha-Emeq]
As-Sarafand (290) - [Zerufa]
As-Sindiyana (1250) - [Ammiqam]
Balad ash-Sheikh (1420) - [Tel Hanan]
Bureika (29) - [Zikhron Ya'akov]
Daliyat ar-Ruha (280)
- [Ramot Menashe]
Ein Haud (650) - [En Hod]
Ghubaiya at-Tahta (1130)
- [Mishmar Ha'Emeq]
Ijzim (2970) - [Kerem Maharal]
Jaba (1140)
Jalama (x)
Kafr Lam (340) - [Ha-Bonim]
Khirbet ad-Damun (340)
Khirbet al-Burj (x)
Khirbet al-Majdal (x) - [Sede Yitzhaq]
Khirbet al-Manshiya (260)
Khirbet al-Mansura
Khirbet Qumbaza (x)
Khirbet Umm ad-Daraj (x)
Khubbeiza (290) - [Even Yitzhaq]
Lidd (Al-Awwadim) (640)
Qannir (750)
Qira wa Qamun (410) - [Yoqne'am]
Qisariya (960) - [(Caesarea)]
Sabbarin (1700) - [Ammiqam]
Tantura (1490) - [Dor / Nahsholim]
Umm ash-Sha'uf (480) - [Giv'at Nili]
Umm az-Zinat (1470)
Wadi Ara (230) - [Barqai]
Yajur (610) - [Nesher]


District of Akka (Acre): 25 localities

Ad-Damun (1310)
Al-Bassa (2950) - [Shelomi]
Al-Birwa (1460) - [Ahihud]
Al-Ghabisiya (690)
Al-Kabri (1530) - [Kabri]
Al-Mansura (360)
Amqa (1240) - [Amqa]
An-Nahr (610)
Ar-Ruweis (330)
As-Sumeiriya (760) - [Regba]
At-Tall
Az-Zib (1910) - [Gesher Ha-Ziv]
Deir al-Qasi (1250) - [Elqosh]
Iqrit (490)
Kafr I'nan (360)
Khirbet Ja'atun (x)
Khirbet Samah (360)
Kuweikat (1050) - [Beit Ha-Emeq]
Manshiya (1080)
Mi'ar (770)
Nabi Rubin (1420) - [Even Menachem]
Suhmata (1130) - [Zuri'el]
Suruh (x)
Tarbikha (1000) - [Shomera]
Umm al-Faraj (800) - [Ben Ammi]


District of Nazareth: 4 localities
? Indur (620)
Al-Mujeidil (1900) -[Migdal Ha-Emeq]
Ma'lul (690)
Saffuriya (4330) - [Zippori]


District of Jenin: 6 localities
Al-Lajjun (1103) - [Megiddo]
Al-Mazar (270)
Ein al-Mansi (90)
Khirbet al-Jaufa (x)
Nuris (580) - [Nurit]
Zir'in (1420) - [Yizre'el]


District of Beisan (Beth Shean): 22 localities
Al-Ashrafiya (230) - [Sheluhot]
Al-Bira (260)
Al-Hamidiya (220) - [Hamadya]
Al-Murassas (460)
As-Samiriya (x) - [Sede Terumot]
At-Taqa (x)
At-Tira (150) - [Gazit]
Danna (190)
Farwana (330)
Hakimiya (520)
Jabbul (250)
Kafra (430)
Kaukab al-Hawa (300) - [(Belvoir)]
Khirbet al-Mazar (x)
Khirbet az-Zawiya (x)
Khirbet Umm Sabuna (x)
Khirbet Umm Sarhan (x)
Khirbet Zab'a (1931:143) - [Doshen]
Qumiya (440) - [Ein Harod]
Sirin (810)
Tall ash-Shauk (120) - [Nir David]
Yubla (210)


District of Taburiya (Tiberias): 24 localities

Al-Hadatha (520)
Al-Hamma (290) - [Hammat Gader]
Al-Manara (x) - [Menora Hospital]
Al-Manshiya (1938:362)
Al-Mansura (x)
Al-Ubeidiya (870) - [Beit Zera']
An-Nuqeib (320)
As-Samakiya (380) - [(Cafarnaum)]
As-Samra (290) - [Ha-On]
Ash-Shajara (770) - [Ilaniya]
At-Tabigha (330) - [(Heptapegon)]
Ghuweir Abu Shusha (1240) - [Ginossar]
Hittin (1190) - [Kefar Zeitim]
Kafr Sabt (480) - [Sede Ilan]
Khirbet al-Wa'ra as-Sauda (x)
Lubiya (2350) - [Lavi]
Ma'dhar (480)
Majdal (360)
Nimrin (320)
Samakh (3460) - [Ma'agan]
Ulam (720)
Yaquq (210) - [Huqoq]

District of Safed (Zefat): 76 localities


Abil al-Qamh (330) - [Yuval]
Ad-Darbashiya (310)
Adh-Dhahiriya at-Tahta (350)
Al-Abbisiya (830) - [Kefar Szold]
Al-Amir (x) - [Amir]
Al-Buweiziya (510)
Al-Ghabbatiya (60)
Al-Ghuraba (200) - [Gonen]
Al-Hamra (730) - [Lehavot Habashan]
Al-Huseiniya (340)
Al-Khalisa (1840) - [Kiryat Shemona]
Al-Khisas (530) - [Ha-Gosherim]
Al-Madahil (1931:100) - [Kefar Szold]
Al-Malikiya (360) - [Malkiya ]
Al-Manara (490) - [Menara]
Al-Manshiya (1938: 362)
Al-Mansura (360) - [She'ar Yashuv]
Al-Muftakhira (350)
Al-Qeitiya (940) - [Beit Hilel]
Al-Ulmaniya (260)
Al-Waiziya (x)
Alma (950) - [Alma]
Ammuqa (140) - [Ammuqa]
An-Na'ima (1030) - [Kefar Blum]
Ar-Ras al-Ahmar (620)
- [Keren Ben Zimra]
Arab az-Zubeib
As-Salihiya (1520) - [Kefar Blum]
As-Sanbariya (130) - [Ma'ayan Barukh]
Ash-Shuna (170)
At-Tuleil - [Hulata]
Az-Zawiya (760) - [Ne'ot Mordekhai]
Az-Zuq al-Fauqani (160) - [Yuval]
Beisamun (20)
Biriya (240)
Dallata (360) - [Dalton]
Dawwara (700) - [Amir]
Deishum (590) - [Dishon]
Ein az-Zeitun (820) - [Ein Zeitim]
Fara (320)
Farradiya (670) - [Parod]
Fir'in (740) - [Hazor Ha-Gelilit]
Harrawi (x) - [Qeren]
Hunin (1620) - [Margaliyot]
Ja'una (1150) - [Rosh Pina]
Jahula (420)
Jubb Yusuf (170)
Kafr Bir'im (710)
Khan ad-Duweir (1938:150) - [Senir]
Khirbet al-Hiqab/Uqeiba (x)
Khirbet al-Muntar (x)
Khirbet as-Samman - [Shamir]
Khirbet Kharraza (x)
Khirbet Khati (x)
Khiyam al-Walid (280)
- [Lehavot Habashan]
Kirad al-Baqqara (360)
Kirad al-Ghannama (350)
- [Ayyelet Ha-Shahar]
Lazzaza (230) - [Beit Hilel]
Mallaha (890)
Mansurat al-Kheit (200)
- [Kefar Ha-Nasi]
Marus (80)
Meirun (290) - [Meron]
Mughr al-Kheit (940)
- [Hazor Ha-Gelilit]
Nabi Yusha' (70) - [Ramot Naftali]
Qabba'a (460)
Qadas (290)
Qaddita (240)
Safsaf (910) - [Sifsufa]
Saliha (1070) - [Yir'on]
Sammu'i (310) - [Kefar Shamma'i]
Sasa (1130) - [Sasa]
Shauqa at-Tahta (200) - [Dafna]
Teitaba (530) - [Dalton]
Yarda (20) - [Mishmar Ha-Yarden]
Zangharriya (840)
Zuq at-Tahtani (1050) - [Beit Hilel]

 

[Ruby]

What is is Mazada? What is the Western wall? What about the recently discovered Herrod Tomb? Are you also going to deny the records the Persians have on Cyrus the Great? Greeks on Alexander the Great?

Proving that a RELIGION is connected to that area or was born in that area dosent mean the land BELONGS to the EUROPEAN jews. It can also be proven that CHRISTIANITY was born there and has deep roots there, that dosent mean that all euro christians have claim to that land.

I am not talking any miracles like the parting of the red seas or the resurrection of Christ. I am talking about the cold hard facts of history of the time. With you same reasoning we can state that anything that has happened in ancient history can be considered! That is crap.

Again, all you are proving is that the Jewish religion has its roots there but that dosent give jews from all over the world rights to that land, just like the deep roots of christianity have there dosent give christians all over the world rights to that land.

Not only Europe, but also the Middle East. But the Jews are originated from Israel! Bottom line. You can deny the disporas all you want, that does make your interpretations turn. What you will also deny is that many Arabs migrated to the Palestine during the late 1800s and early 1900s! You will also not cry to the fact that most Jewish lands in Arab countries were confiscated and the Jews were murdered and exiled from their lands during the same time period!

Jews are not an ethnicity, they are a RELIGION and CULTURE and those are things that spread beyond the region where they are born and just because people from different ethnic backgrounds adopt the religions and culture dosent mean they ALSO come from that lands where the religion and culture were born nor does it mean they have claims in the land.

Trying to even grant claims that are rooted in ANCIENT ties are ridiculous and CANNOT be granted because the harm they would have to cause to do so would OUTWEIGH the good that can come of it.

There were plenty of wars back then (and now) and the jews did plenty of invading and attacking just like all other groups did. It has nothing to do with creating borders of today.

The zionist movement started in the late 1800's and so yes there were many zionists (including arab zionists) who joined and immigrated. Here is one from Iraq and you might enjoy reading his story as he was there and helped to create Israel.

http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html

You might be saddened to find a few things you might not like. First off, many of the arab nations were instigated by the zionists with the threats to come take a chunck of their region (which they did carry through with) AND that many of those "arab attacks" (although definitely not all) were actually false flag operations carried out by the zionists themselves so they could get more jews into palestine to work the land and fight on their side.

WRONG, the Jews came to Europe as exciles from their lands. As slaves in the Roman expire etc. The Christians came freely and most really were converts and nationals were nationals of the country they have been in. Islam came to Europe as immigrants to start a new life.

Some did sure, but the truth is that most of the euro jews DESCEND from europe, just like the european christians. They can actually give DNA tests and tell you where most of your ancestors come from (what region of the earth) and how much you wanna bet the euro jews tests would come back saying EUROPE and not the middle east??

Genocide!!! God your dense! Genocide is the mass extermination of people on a rapid bases. I don't have time right now to look up the stats, but both the Israeli Arabs and Palestinian populations are growing more rapidly than the Jewish Israeli populations!. LOL if they are committing genocide they are doing a piss-poor job if it.

Your definition of genocide is incorrect as was pointed out already. We committed genocide against the native americans and it was not rapid at all. Genocide does not require you wipe out every last one of them either....afterall there are jews left after the holocaust isnt there yet dont we call that a genocide (and it was a genocide or are you denying the genocide against jews now?). We also recognize the genocide against the native americans, yet there are some left arent there?

Genocide seeks to destroy the group as a cohesive people, community, culture, political entity etc. Thats why they want palestinians to go absorb into surrounding arab nations or anywhere else...just make them cease as a cohesive group with their own distinctive culture and as a nation or a poltical entity.

You are the one who is dense since you refuse to truly understand the term genocide or its definition or its various ways of being carried out.

The palestinians are fighting their genocide and a few of the ways they do it is to discourage anyone from fleeing to other nations and away from their lands...they also encourage reproducing to that they dont dwindle like the indians have. They arent doing all that well on either score really, but without their concerted efforts, it might be even worse.

We did it for the black slaves in Liberia! And the Jews have been BY FAR the most persecuted people of all time. Second to none.

This is truly a sick statement to pretend Jews have had it soooo much worse than anyone else. It cant even be quantified really, so many groups have suffered sooo horribly that to try and compare their suffering and pretend one is somehow so much worse off than the rest is just disgusting and not a game am interested in.

BTW, what we did in Liberia wasnt right at all and there were many of the original community that were harmed. The only difference was that they didnt have to leave and were allowed to stay and participate in the process of self determination along side the "new immigrants". Of course just because the original inhabitants made out better than the palestinians dosent really justify us making another nation pay for our own crimes.

So do you suggest that Israel be one state and allow both palestinians and jews to live there and ALL have a part in determining the states future as ONE community? Do you assert they both have the right to reside there and both groups should be afforded EQUAL rights and each person gets their one vote and their one voice added?

Of course you don't, just like you don't care who the Jews really descended from. Ignorance is bliss.

You are the one being ignorant here, the Iraqi jew DOES at least descend from the region but the polish jew DOSENT. But EITHER way, ancient claims of where your ancestors come from thousands of years ago (even hundreds of years ago) are not a basis to come and destroy a community and replace them as residents. You cant even gain legal residency in a nation you can PROVE your grandparents were citizens in. It dosent cut it.

What we do have are CURRENT refugess of Palestine/Israel who are still sitting with that status and are waiting to return to their homes. They have had children who are born to NO NATION AT ALL and also have the status of refugee and have a right to return to their parents home.

They (palestinians) havent lost thier national rights which is quite a unique situation that Isreal has created here. The palestinians had been aware and fighting this battle before Israel was created and they knew the intentions and it is probably due to this that they made sure to hold onto their rights.

First off there is nothing even close to a genocide, so you sound like an ignorant anti-semite when you state it. So I suggest, for your creditability stake you pick a better argument
Second, the Pals (direct descendants of the Arab Crusaders) took the lands under the sword. That is theft no less, no?

There is most definitely a genocide and it meets the definition via the FACTS coinciding perfectly with the definition. Its not anti-sematic to recognize those FACTS, just like it isnt anti-german to recognize the german genocide against jews.

My credibility is just fine, I use the facts and actually UNDERSTAND and KNOW the definition of the word genocide, unlike yourself.

Again, you want ancient history to determine our world today..it cant be done. The scandanavian region would have to go back to war to fight over borders AGAIN, the entire US would have to return to europe and leave it for the native americans left...most of latin america would have to leave and return to spain leaving only the natives, we would have to return Hawaii to the Hawaiians (although at least this one is more feasible) etc etc.

You cant FIX ancient conflicts nor can the "facts" be verified very well. Its just a ridiculous notion.

The Palestinians are seeking their CURRENT RIGHTS, not ancient ones. They are seeking a return to their own homes and still have a refugee status.

Germany is not the Jewish homeland. Besides the Holocaust was the 2nd genocide the Germans committed against the Jews, why would they want to remain their when anti-semitism is still very very high.

Its ONE of the jewish homelands, jews come from MANY DIFFERENT homelands, just like muslims and christians!

The problem stated when the Jews were systematically kicked off their lands, mass-murdered and exciled, but the Assyrians, Babloyians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs Crusaders and Christian Crusaders.

If all you have are ancient grievances to rely on, then you have NOTHING really. There was fighting among many groups and jewish people did plenty of their own fighting and attacking as well. It has nothing to do with a bunch of euro jews going into the middle east and committing genocide so they can steal land and make a homeland for themselves based on bigotted and racist policies.

After the Babloyians and Assyrians conquered Israel, the Jews fought back with the Persian to get their homeland back. They did the same when the Greeks and succeed. They tried it with the Romans when they tightened their rule. They did it again against the Byzantines and Persians. Any were back-stabbed by both people. Why would you think the would quit now? The Jews have been on a constant struggle to get their homeland back, since 586 BC. To which they have had many semi-autonmous rules and a few temporary independent states!

Again, ancient grievances cant be solved in todays world, to do so you would have to punish all innocent people and give things to people who have suffered no loss. Euro jews descend from europe and the crimes and problems they face there are to be dealt with there OR they can migrate with the permission of the recieving country and JOIN the existing community, they have no rights to destroy them.

They have not been in any constant struggle to get a homeland back or even a homeland...that idea was born with the zionists in the late 1800's.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No it wasnt

Really. Can you tell me how the countries of the ME got their borders, if not for Europeans with a map and a pen?

Europe DID intefere and did create borders but as long as the colonizing power withdraws and leaves people to SELF-DETERMINE then those borders (or new ones the residents create) are indeed legitimate because the PEOPLE there who are the legitimate community have decided by their OWN POWER, WILL, AND PROCESSES.

The point is that if Jordan and Syria (et al) are legitimate states, then so too is Israel.

 

[Ruby]

Really. Can you tell me how the countries of the ME got their borders, if not for Europeans with a map and a pen?

Via fighting amongst themselves, the interferrence of the ottoman empire as well as european interferrence. What you fail to recognize is that this land and those nations of people have existed for a very long time and continue to. Trying to say they dont have a right to exist because they have suffered outside interferrence is downright crazy really. The borders are there for the ACTUAL residents to determine or change.

Mass emmigrating euro jews who carved out Israel against the current residents will is the problem. Its the interferrence yet again and the best way to have legitimate borders and states is to allow them their own choices and not keep shoving them down their throats. If any of the changes that do evolve from outside interferrence AND THEY CHOOSE to keep would be legitimate because it is their will.

The point is that if Jordan and Syria (et al) are legitimate states, then so too is Israel.

No, the residents of those states who had legitimate claim to the land they were on self determined and came up with solutions they could accept, this is not the case with Palestinians.

You keep wanting to cut out the actual PEOPLES will which is the only truly legitimate entity...not the mass immigrants, nor the wishes of foreign nations.

The towns in Syrian and Jordan that existed BEFORE european intervention still exist...this is not so for the palestinians. Jordan and Syria were not emptied of their population to be replaced by mass emmigration of europeans.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No you are just trying to pinpoint where you want, its an ONGOING problem that begun even before 1948...

Which is why I said If "homeland" is the bases of the Palestinian argument, then history begins before 1948.

and original owners and their legitimate heirs are still there in refugee status and want to go home. They should be allowed to go home...

Tell that to all the Germans that were forcibly displaced after WW2.
Should they be allowed to go home to Poland, etc?

The reason Israel wont allow those legitimate palestinians back in is because they know if their will is part of the self determination, they wont get to keep their racist "jews only" state.

Jews aren't a race.
And a state has every right to determine the nature of its citizenry, in allowing who can become citizens. You may not like that, but its part of having sovereignty.

First they arent using their OWN land...

Sure they are.
They are using land that is part of Israel, like my land is part of Ohio.

Afterall, Israel commits plenty of terrorism against palestinians.

Oh. You're one of THOSE.
The 'terrorism' against Palestinian civilians can be summarized rather easily by a simple graphic:

Let me know if you do not undertstand how this invalidates your position regarding Israeli "terrorism".

They arent settling Israeli land, they are settling Palestinian land. Isreal wont claim its permanant borders

Israel has tried to settle in Syria and/or Jordan? When?
Oh, they havent -- because there's a border there.

because it keeps expanding so they can push Palestinians into the sea.

Um... the West Bank doesnt border the sea.

No Isreal shouldnt have totally destroyed Palestine. Palestinians have no choice but to defend themselves.

So, if the Germans living in the parts of Poland that were taken from Germany were to start blowing up Polish school buses, you'd agree that they were just "defending thenlseves'?
Oh, wait -- there arent any Germans living there -- they were forcibly removed.

Bullshit, palestinians are a seperate people and are entitled to stay on the same land they have lived on for thousands of years and were forced off of. Isreal IS their original country.

See above, re: foricbly displaced Germans.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Via fighting amongst themselves, the interferrence of the ottoman empire as well as european interferrence.

So.. it WAS from Europeans and maps and pens. Thank you.

Trying to say they dont have a right to exist because they have suffered outside interferrence is downright crazy really. The borders are there for the ACTUAL residents to determine or change.

Take a look at the map of Europe from 1914, 1918, 1933, 1939, 1946.
How many of the borders on these maps were changed by the actual residents of the countries that lost/gained land?
None.
When are you going to apply this argument to those maps?

Mass emmigrating euro jews who carved out Israel against the current residents will is the problem. Its the interferrence yet again and the best way to have legitimate borders and states is to allow them their own choices and not keep shoving them down their throats. If any of the changes that do evolve from outside interferrence AND THEY CHOOSE to keep would be legitimate because it is their will.

See above.

No, the residents of those states who had legitimate claim to the land they were on self determined and came up with solutions they could accept, this is not the case with Palestinians.

See above.

You keep wanting to cut out the actual PEOPLES will which is the only truly legitimate entity...not the mass immigrants, nor the wishes of foreign nations.

See above.

 

[Ruby]

Which is why I said If "homeland" is the bases of the Palestinian argument, then history begins before 1948.

No history dosent begin in 1948 and there are still thousands and thousands of palestinians who are refugees and have a right to return to THEIR HOMELAND as per international law, and more importantly according to moral laws. You cant just invade and commit genocide and pretend that history starts where it favors you and dismiss the genocide or the thousands of years people have lived in an area.

Tell that to all the Germans that were forcibly displaced after WW2.
Should they be allowed to go home to Poland, etc?

Yes they should be able to return to their homes.

Jews aren't a race.
And a state has every right to determine the nature of its citizenry, in allowing who can become citizens. You may not like that, but its part of having sovereignty.

Well again, they cant deny laws that already exist and even agreements they signed onto. The refugees have a right to return and THEY DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO COMMIT GENOCIDE.

Sure they are.
They are using land that is part of Israel, like my land is part of Ohio.

NO they arent, they just keep using palestinian land as they have from the beginning and continue to do so that they can create facts on the ground that make sure there ISNT any 2 state solution. Just claiming it as yours dosent make it true, nor does using might to make it yours and committing genocide make your thefts or murders legitimate.

Oh. You're one of THOSE.
The 'terrorism' against Palestinian civilians can be summarized rather easily by a simple graphic:

Again which part of Israel terrorism using civilians INCLUDING MINORS as shields huh? How bout the fact that genocide, the destruction of homes, the destruction of their water supplies and food supplies, the not allowing refugees to return to their homes, the massacres etc DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

Israel has tried to settle in Syria and/or Jordan? When?
Oh, they havent -- because there's a border there.

Keep playing dumb, syria nor jordan are the palestinian areas but you can just keep those blinders on so you can continue to support genocide.

Um... the West Bank doesnt border the sea.

Ah but we know that has nothing to do with the statement dont we? Its about obliterating palestinians.

So, if the Germans living in the parts of Poland that were taken from Germany were to start blowing up Polish school buses, you'd agree that they were just "defending thenlseves'?
Oh, wait -- there arent any Germans living there -- they were forcibly removed.

Forcibly removing people from their homes was never a RIGHT thing to do...what part of that dont you get?

People being invaded by FOREIGNERS have a right to defend themselves as Palestinians have done against the INVASION of the zionists into their lands.

See above, re: foricbly displaced Germans.

Again, forcibly diplacing people from their homes isnt right and I dont condone it. Although, if we were to displace germans to other parts of germany to make room for a jewish state..that at least would be in accordance with morality since it was the holocaust and crimes against the jewish people that can be used as a basis for the action. It certainly beats wiping out an entire nation of people who are innocent of the crimes against the jews we saw in WW2.

 

[Ruby]

So.. it WAS from Europeans and maps and pens. Thank you.

No, but you are only proving you are very obtuse and its a choice. You seem to think being a brick wall is the best route. Of course I understand why...its hard to defend genocide.

Take a look at the map of Europe from 1914, 1918, 1933, 1939, 1946.
How many of the borders on these maps were changed by the actual residents of the countries that lost/gained land?
None.
When are you going to apply this argument to those maps?

Incorrect, the maps are changed by the people because they stop fighting when they accept their situation as just. You can see that pretty clearly around the world and why some are still fighting...they arent happy with their situation and the fight continues.

Take India for example after they freed themselves from British rule. They broke off into 2 nations and still have *some* squabbles over borders but they are generally happy with the situation and have actually made some strides now in their relations!

The wars are fought by the people in those nations so yes they do determine their fate ultimately. The only real problem comes in when much more powerful forces bare down on the less powerful, then we see prolonged battles but the battles do continue.

Israel is actually cutting its own racist throat now. Its making a 2 state solution impossible, so the ONLY remedy left will be to allow palestinians to reside in Israel and make it a Palestinian/Israeli state. The "jew only" state will cease to exist because Palestinians are intent on surviving and asserting their rights...THAT is the most powerful force on the planet in the end.

The one vs two state solution is already being debated and since a 2 state solution will no longer be viable, its all we really have left.

http://mostlywater.org/two_states_or_one_state_debate_between_avnery_and_pappe

Ilan Pappe: I do not deny the right of the Jewish People to a state, as I do not deny the right of the Palestinian People to a state. I do deny the the right of the Jewish People to dispossess the Palestinian People of their homeland. If the political solution which is being proposed would enable the Jewish People to continue dispossessing the Palestinian People, this is not only morally unacceptable - it also means that the conflict would be perpetuated. Therefore, what I seek is a solution which in the final account will enable everybody who lives here to feel that their historical rights are respected, and that their civil and human rights are respected, too. If this sounds like absolute morality, I shudder to think what relative morality would consist of.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No history dosent begin in 1948...

So you agree with me -- if you;re talking about "homeland", history doesnt begin in 1948.

Yes they should be able to return to their homes.

When you start campaigning for this, let me know.

Well again, they cant deny laws that already exist and even agreements they signed onto. The refugees have a right to return and THEY DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO COMMIT GENOCIDE.

Genocide.

NO they arent, they just keep using palestinian land...

Palestinian land that is part of Israel...

Again which part of Israel terrorism using civilians INCLUDING MINORS as shields huh? How bout the fact that genocide, the destruction of homes, the destruction of their water supplies and food supplies, the not allowing refugees to return to their homes, the massacres etc DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

I guess I wasnt clear.
Israelis killl Palestinians civilians because Palestinian terrorists hide behind them.
Palestinians kill Israeli civilians as part of a dliberate campaign to kill Israeli civilians.
Somehow, in your eyes, the Israeli actions are just as bad as, if not worse than, the palestinians actions.
How is that?

Keep playing dumb, syria nor jordan are the palestinian areas but you can just keep those blinders on so you can continue to support genocide.

You were talking about borders that israel doesnt recognize. Its pretty clear that Israel DOES recognize borders, as they haven't tried to settle beyond their borders.

And you continued use of the term "genocide" either denote a flawed understanding of the word or a deliberate attempt to sensationalize what's going on over there in a desperate attempt to sway the opinion of the ignorant.

Either way, all you'r doing is lessening the severity of the word and marginalizing the people who DID suffer genocide.

Ah but we know that has nothing to do with the statement dont we? Its about obliterating palestinians.

Except to show that the statement is completely inaccurate -- no, it doesn't

Forcibly removing people from their homes was never a RIGHT thing to do...what part of that dont you get?

When you start campaigning for the right of return for forcibly displaced Germans, let me know.

People being invaded by FOREIGNERS have a right to defend themselves as Palestinians have done against the INVASION of the zionists into their lands.

Yu didnt answer the question:
If the Germans living in the parts of Poland that were taken from Germany were to start blowing up Polish school buses, you'd agree that they were just "defending thenlseves'?

Again, forcibly diplacing people from their homes isnt right and I dont condone it.

When you start campaigning for the right of return for forcibly displaced Germans, let me know.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No, but you are only proving you are very obtuse and its a choice. You seem to think being a brick wall is the best route. Of course I understand why...its hard to defend genocide.

You dont want to admit that the countries of the ME were created by Europeans with a map and pen. I understand -- after all, you could not then argue that Israel has no legitimacy.

Genocide? Yawn.

Incorrect, the maps are changed by the people because they stop fighting when they accept their situation as just.

OMFG.
Find me ONE German that thought the Treaty of Versailles to be "just".
These borders were FORCED on the countries that lost the relevant war by the countries that WON.

If you cannot admit THAT, then its clear you havent a shred of intellectual honesty, and aren't worth the time it takes to put this discussion on ignore.

 

[Shogun]

Oh. You're one of THOSE.
The 'terrorism' against Palestinian civilians can be summarized rather easily by a simple graphic:


dude... you have the logic of Ole Jo Goebbels!

Paul Joseph Goebbels (German pronunciation: IPA: ['gœbl̩s]) (29 October 1897–1 May 1945) was a German politician and Minister for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda during the National Socialist regime from 1933 to 1945. He was one of Adolf Hitler's closest associates and most devout followers. Goebbels was known for his zealous, energetic oratory and virulent anti-Semitism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels


Your silly little racist fucking zionist banner is about as impressive as this crap that the nazi's used for weak minded bastards who were simply not interested in thinking..

ENJOY!

way to ACT to the pals just like the NAZIS acted towards the jews!

Same shit, different shoe.

 

[Ruby]

So you agree with me -- if you;re talking about "homeland", history doesnt begin in 1948.

The residents (who are now refugees) were the only ones able to determine their laws, their immigration policy, their political life etc. This was taken from them so you can expect them to keep fighting. Those that were born in Germany...their homeland is Germany, those that were born in Poland their homeland is Poland etc. They had no right to invade the palestinians. Its very simple but you must remain obtuse, its your only real refuge.

When you start campaigning for this, let me know.

Why? It has nothing to do with the huge problem we now have in Palestine and that the US is a HUGE part of creating and continuing. I guess you figure if you can just change the subject and not stay on track that it might work well along side the obtuse defense. LOL!

Genocide.

Yea I figured you didnt REALLY care about the victims of genocide.

Palestinian land that is part of Israel...

Well then palestinians are also part of Israel and should have equal rights and that means no more "jews only" nation. It means it will end up predominately arab/palestinian. Well thats probably a good solution. Cant wait to see all those palestinians voting in those Isreali elections...I bet we end up with some very different candidates!

I guess I wasnt clear.
Israelis killl Palestinians civilians because Palestinian terrorists hide behind them.
Palestinians kill Israeli civilians as part of a dliberate campaign to kill Israeli civilians.
Somehow, in your eyes, the Israeli actions are just as bad as, if not worse than, the palestinians actions.
How is that?

Oh no you are quite backwards. Israelis are committing genocide against palestinians in the hopes they can wipe them out and take all that belongs to the palestinians for themselves. Its the reason they steal palestinian water, farms, land and homes.

Israelis kill Palestinians because Palestinians assert their rights and are therefore an enemy to the racist state of Israel who has a big "no arabs" sign swinging. Palestinians who refuse to leave their homeland are placed under seige by Israel so that they will suffer so horribly they either die or flee. So far, there seem to be enough who stay no matter what and refuse to give up their rights.

You were talking about borders that israel doesnt recognize. Its pretty clear that Israel DOES recognize borders, as they haven't tried to settle beyond their borders.

NO, they dont actually recognize any real borders...they seem to be taking ALL that they want. They continue to expand. Now its my current guess they will only expand into all of palestinian areas...but its quite possible they will go beyond that even, we dont know YET. But I do see that according to you....palestinians have no rights to their own lands and you are perfectly fine with doing whatever it takes to wipe them out. You dont recognize their human rights as individuals nor as a group....you dehumanize them completely which is what a person must do to support genocide. Congradulations, you have embraced the lowest places humans can go.

And you continued use of the term "genocide" either denote a flawed understanding of the word or a deliberate attempt to sensationalize what's going on over there in a desperate attempt to sway the opinion of the ignorant.

Either way, all you'r doing is lessening the severity of the word and marginalizing the people who DID suffer genocide.

Not at all, what the Israelis are doing to the palestinians is genocide and meets with the definition EXACTLY. Just as you have already done..in your mind the palestinians already DONT EXIST and HAVE NO RIGHTS. The numerous towns and villages of palestinians that were completely wiped out dont matter to you, their rights can be stripped, their lives can be taken simply because they refused to accept their demise as a people, as a nation, as a community. Its easy to kill people and strip them of any normal human rights we normally see as inherent just by virtue of being human when you have already decided they dont even "exist" or "deserve" what they get.

Except to show that the statement is completely inaccurate -- no, it doesn't

Yes it does, the Israelis used this propaganda to conjure up images of them being victims of another genocide but the truth is that its Israel who is committing genocide against the palestinians hence "its Israel who is pushing palestinians into the sea"

When you start campaigning for the right of return for forcibly displaced Germans, let me know.

Again, I see you are having trouble staying on topic. This is about palestinians and both the US and Israeli genocide against them. The US is the ones who support Israel in very very material ways which makes us an accomplice and a very guilty party to it.

Yu didnt answer the question:
If the Germans living in the parts of Poland that were taken from Germany were to start blowing up Polish school buses, you'd agree that they were just "defending thenlseves'?


When you start campaigning for the right of return for forcibly displaced Germans, let me know.

YOu arent making any sense here, you seem to want to compare germans removed from germany and put in poland with palestinians. Palestinians are in their OWN HOMELANDS and its Israelis who are invading.

Again, you cant seem to stick with the actual issue here which is Palestinians.

 

[Ruby]

You dont want to admit that the countries of the ME were created by Europeans with a map and pen. I understand -- after all, you could not then argue that Israel has no legitimacy.

No, you just need to stay obtuse, thats easy to understand and I already understand it. You dont need to point that obvious point home anymore.

Genocide? Yawn.

Yep I have already noted your horrible indifference to genocide and even support of it.

OMFG.
Find me ONE German that thought the Treaty of Versailles to be "just".
These borders were FORCED on the countries that lost the relevant war by the countries that WON.

If you cannot admit THAT, then its clear you havent a shred of intellectual honesty, and aren't worth the time it takes to put this discussion on ignore.

Well you are right, they WERENT happy with it and its a big reason we ended up STILL FIGHTING and saw WW2!! You just proved my point, people keep fighting until they are satisfied. Its why there was continued struggle until Germany was also unified again after its partition after WW2. People kept fighting until they reached a point where they felt happy and satisified with what they had and the borders they have now.

Thanks for proving my point, I do appreciate it.

 

[Shogun]

Israel's human shields draw fire
Human rights groups return to court over army's use of Palestinian civilians

Chris McGreal in Hebron
Thursday January 2, 2003
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html

Which prtty much makes THIS image bullshit... unless, of course we are talking about jewish civilians instead of pals, apparently.

But dont let that keep you from posting more Geobbels-friendly racist bullshit, dude.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Well you are right, they WERENT happy with it and its a big reason we ended up STILL FIGHTING and saw WW2!! You just proved my point, people keep fighting until they are satisfied.

Actually, you're arguing that WW2 was justified, from the German point of view. You;are SO desperate to not have to admit that the Palestinians are acting like barbaric animals that you'll do ANYTHING -- including arguing that the Germans were JUSTIFIED in going to war -- to avoid it.

That's REALLY sad.

Its also a near-singular point of view.

 

[Ruby]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/834937.html

Last update - 07:48 09/03/2007


B'Tselem: IDF used Palestinian girl as human shield in Nablus

By Reuters

Israel Defense Forces soldiers used an 11-year-old Palestinian girl as a "human shield" during an operation against militants in the West Bank town of Nablus last week, an Israeli human rights group said on Thursday.

and

B'tselem also said the army had used a 15-year-old Palestinian boy and a Palestinian man for a similar purpose during the five-day raid of Nablus, a militant stronghold.

It still goes on as it has been for years.

 

[Ruby]

Actually, you're arguing that WW2 was justified, from the German point of view. You;are SO desperate to not have to admit that the Palestinians are acting like barbaric animals that you'll do ANYTHING -- including arguing that the Germans were JUSTIFIED in going to war -- to avoid it.

That's REALLY sad.

Its also a near-singular point of view.

The germans had other means at their disposal and it dosent justify the GENOCIDE they committed since that has nothing to do with border disputes.

But GOOD TRY, it just didnt work out that well for ya. Better luck next time!

I think going into a nation and genociding its current residents so you can steal their land is where the barbaric acts are found and those were the zionists.