What are/should be Israel's plans for the West Bank?

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by Doug, Sep 24, 2007.

  1. Doug
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    Doug Active Member

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    I have never understood what the Israelis thought would happen with the West Bank. If they had killed, or driven away, most of its Arab inhabitants, that would have made sense. Then they could just have annexed it.

    Or, if they deliberately planned to use the settlements as land-for-peace bargaining chips, that would have made sense. Or at least some sense.

    But the first didn't happen, and the second seems like an unlikely perspective.

    So what did they think would happen with all the Palestinians? Moshe Dayan thought they would become friendly, having experienced the benefits of civilized Israeli rule. Even if that had happened, it's hard to imagine what would follow from that. Israeli citizenship?

    Perhap they had nothing in particular in mind, and just hoped something would turn up.

    If anyone has an answer to this, I would be grateful to hear it.

    But a much more interesting question is: what should Israel do with the West Bank now? (Or, rather, that part of it which is outside their security wall -- I assume that part which is within the wall will be annexed.)

    What is the point of having settlements deep inside hostile territory? I could see a few military fortresses -- that might make sense from a strategic point of view. But why expose women and children to snipers and bombs? It would seem to make as much sense as the Mormons establishing a colony in Iraq.

    Perhaps someone can explain this to me.
     
  2. RetiredGySgt
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    RetiredGySgt Platinum Member

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    According to Ruby the Israels are committing Genocide, of course they are doing it in a very slow and idiotic way if they are. So I guess the plan is to kill them all someday, well according to our Jew haters anyway.
     
  3. Ruby
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    Ruby Member

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    Why do you always go around saying stuff like "well Ruby would say" or "well Ruby thinks"? Its a very weird thing to do and even a bit obsessive.

    BTW, criticism of Israel dosent make me a "jew hater"....that old bullshit propaganda dosent work on me. There are definitely people that would love to pretend that Israel represents all Jews but thats FAR FROM THE TRUTH. Not all Jews are zionists and not all jews agree with Israel or its policies.

    Yes wiping entire peoples and communities out of existence on purpose is genocide. There are literally hundreds of palestinian communities that no longer exist because they were purposely wiped out by the Israelis and the creation of Israel. Even the Israeli historians can no longer deny this nor do they even try.

    Actually you would need to look to the World bank and the plans for the future for any remaining palestinians is very clear.

    http://www.gnn.tv/threads/21358/The_World_Bank_s_dark_plan_for_Palestine_slave_labour

    The small communities left will simply be used as slave labor with no chance for a viable national state. Already the map is so occupied by Israel that a 2 state solution is already looking quite impossible...it would require the evacuation of far too many Israeli settlements and its highly doubtful thats gonna happen. Thats what the settlements are for, expansion of Israel and pushing out the palestinians. Its the good old native american styled genocide, just keep pushing and expanding and killing as you go. Palestinians can either try to leave the area or they face a hopeless situation (abject poverty, living under hostile occupation, disease etc) and even death.

    Isreal isnt doing it in a very idiotic way at all...they are doing it in exactly the way that has the best chance of success. There will be no conflict soon enough because there wont be enough of them left to have a conflict WITH...again ala native american genocide solution.
     
  4. Shogun
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    Shogun Free: Mudholes Stomped

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    being strangled with a soft gloved hand produces the same result as an exploding grenade.


    ooops.

    "I see jew haters..."
    [​IMG]
     
  5. jillian
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    jillian Princess Supporting Member

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    Actually, I think you'd be hard pressed to find very many jews who don't think Israel should have a safe, defensible existence as a Jewish State. What you will find is a variety of opinions as to how that should happen. I absolutely think that if one supports ideas which would leave Israel without existence while holding palestinians blameless for their circumstances, one should ask themselves why, when they have no problem with other states that were created by the UN or which won land in defensive battle. For example, are you complaining about the existence of the UAE or even Iraq or the possession by the U.S. of California and Texas?

    Wiped out? You mean when they left at the behest of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem? As yourself why the palestinians don't have a state. It's because they refused to enter into any agreement which protected Israel's continued existence. Why would any people allow themselves to be obliterated?

    Or is that what Jews are supposed to do?
     
  6. Ruby
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    Ruby Member

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    It wasnt some defensive battle really, it was always an aggressive battle. The mass immigration of Jews via the British mandate for the express purpose of creating Israel and dispossessing the current residents of their lands and communities was where and how the battle began. The palestinians were always the ones DEFENDING...they just couldnt possibly match the power of the british which was what gave the settlers and mass immigrating Jews their power.

    I know plenty of Jews who dont agree with Israels creation or its politics. Then I know of other Jews who want Israel to remain as an existing state but would rather go back to 67 borders (some are saying go back to 48 borders) and then others who want to allow it to be a palestinian/jewish state...there are a variety of views within the jewish community around the world.

    The land wasnt "won", it was invaded and it proceeded to get rid of the population so that the new "owners" could take it over as their own.


    No, Jews werent sopposed to come with the intention to destroy full communities of people so they could take what belonged to those people and communities. It seems to me that it was the mass emmigrating euro jews that believed that Palestinians were sopposed to accept obliteration and seems to be astonished that the Palestinians werent ready to accept such a thing. So maybe you should answer your own question...why do you expect the palestinians to accept being obliterated?
     
  7. Shogun
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    now Jillie.. I KNOW you didn't just feign concern about Iraqi natives dealing with what they percieve as an invading force while shrugging off concern for pal natives who see the same thing...


    Indeed, why is it that it is a no brainer to you when Iraq couldnt conform to the demands of ending a phantom WMD program despite western demands....
    ..... but the PALS must swallow the non-negotiable terms of Israel or, apparently, just want to kill jews and worship satan?


    how is bushs one sided hardline stance any different from your pet issue?


    I bet youd be suprised at how eager the pals would be to move on if the state of israel could muster the gonads to say, "hey, yea, we totally raped you guys off this land in order to make our buring bush legend come to pass. I know there are bitter resentment about having your face held in the sand while we favor immigrant jews and establish jewish dominance with apartheid walls and your second class status. I understand why you have reacted for 60 years. Please understand that we have a rish hisotry here too and, in the name of peace and prosparity for our progeny, I offer my apology for historic injustice and an olive branch to move on where Rabin and Arafat left off. Let's start a new day where we are equal despite ethnicity and seek peace instead of pointing figners at who to blame. A nation whose REcreation is a testement to diversity and tolorance. Where Muslim and Jew can live together, sharing a common tragedy, common hisotry and a common decision to work together as equals. As brothers where ethnicity is not a factor in justice."


    try that, Jillian. You see, it's the same ole "catch more with sugar than salt" strategy.

    was that too antisemtitic for this thread?
     
  8. jillian
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    jillian Princess Supporting Member

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    Defending? By all the arab nations together attacking Israel? They did a pretty bad job of it then.

    There was no country of Palestine. And they left their homes because they CHOSE to. My grandparents left Belarus because of pogroms. Are you saying that I have a right to my ancestral property back? Cool...

    Or does that only apply to Jews?

    Two separate issues. Any Jew who doesn't agree with Israel's creation is an idiot, quite frankly. As for the politics, different politics at different times. But then you'd actually have to believe Israel has the right to exist to understand that. Frankly, I'm amazed at the fact that anyone still raises the issue of "right to exist". Do you do so with regard to the UAE? Iraq? Saudi Arabia?

    Of course not... but no anti-semitism there.

    Why should it? It won the land. People defeated in battle lose land. That's been the case throughout history. What other countries expansion by defensive battle (and immigration isn't battle and it was lawful)... do you have quarrels with? I'd wager none... but no anti-semitism there either, eh?


    Any Jew who thinks it should be a palestinian/jewish state is also an idiot. The palestinians don't want that any more than the Jews do. What that position wants is another Arab state in the mid-east.

    Try again...

    That's an outright lie.

    Actually, Jews were already there and the new immigrants were supposed to come in and share the land. They would have done that. The Arabs refused.

    One mo' time... try again.
     
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  9. Shogun
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    Native America's refused too, Jillian.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Doug
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    Doug Active Member

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    If I could divert this thread back to the orginal question -- so far, only Ruby has given an answer: she (he?) says that the Israeli plan was to plant settlements, and then to make life so difficult for the Palestinians that most of them would emigrate, leaving Israel free to annex the whole West Bank, with a few Palestinian Bantustans. In other words, the Israelis would achieve what the Europeans achieved vis-a-vis the Indians in North America, except that instead of overwhelming them with numbers by their own immigration, they would achieve the same effect by the slow forced emigration of the Palestinians. (Is that a fair paraphrase, Ruby?)

    Now this would be a rational plan. A slow expulsion. (Please note: I don't say it would be a fair plan, or a nice plan, or a wicked plan. Just a rational plan.)

    It seems like a plausible interpretation to me, although it may be false. Otherwise, the settlers are left sitting exposed among millions of people who hate them.

    So it seems fair to ask: is it working? It didn't work in Gaza. And it doesn't seem to be working on the West Bank -- although I may be wrong. (Does anyone have any figures for Palestinian emigration from the West Bank?)

    So, three questions:

    (1) Is Ruby's analysis correct -- slow expulsion? Or was there some other plan? If so, what was it?

    (2) Is there a slow expulsion in fact (whatever Israeli intentions may be)?

    (3) If there is not a slow expulsion, is there a Plan B? What is it, if so?
     

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