Hiroshima and Nagasaki - did they really end the war.

[JoeB131]

Not really.

This is one of the myths we Americans like to tell ourselves, but the Japanese Surrender had a lot more to do with the fact the USSR entered the Pacific War.

Japan's goal in 1945 was not to win. They knew they were done. It was to get a favorable peace. One that let them keep some of their gains in China. When the USSR entered the war on August 8th, and started rolling up their Armies in a few days, they knew they had no real options. Eithere Japan could be entirely occuppied by the US, or partioned like Germany.

And there were enough horror stories about what the soviets were doing in East Germany to make that an easy pick.

The bombs, on the other hand, didn't do that much damage. They were relatively low kilotons, we had devastated Japans cities with conventional bombing and killed far more people that way.

 

[Warrior102]

I lived on Kyushu, close to Nagasaki. Been there many times. Beautiful city (today).

Trust me - the bombs did MUCH damage. 90,000–166,000 killed in Hiroshima, 60,000–80,000 killed in Nagasaki

You don't find that significant ?

 

[rightwinger]

I lived on Kyushu, close to Nagasaki. Been there many times. Beautiful city (today).

Trust me - the bombs did MUCH damage. 90,000–166,000 killed in Hiroshima, 60,000–80,000 killed in Nagasaki

You don't find that significant ?

I think his point was that we could have done as much damage with conventional bombing. Like the firebombing of Tokyo. They didn't surrender after that one

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I lived on Kyushu, close to Nagasaki. Been there many times. Beautiful city (today).

Trust me - the bombs did MUCH damage. 90,000–166,000 killed in Hiroshima, 60,000–80,000 killed in Nagasaki

You don't find that significant ?

I think his point was that we could have done as much damage with conventional bombing. Like the firebombing of Tokyo. They didn't surrender after that one

Government notes FROM the Japanese Government at the time prove conclusively that the Emperor forced the Army running the Government to surrender after the second atomic bomb. And even with their LIVING GOD demanding a surrender with no terms, the Imperial Army mounted a Coup to prevent his recorded words from being broadcast and to prevent the surrender.

Prior to the bombs Japan's Government DEMANDED terms that were not surrender. Even the OP admits that.

 

[Divine Wind]

Nukes ended the war. Almost half a million Americans died in only four years of fighting. WWII was devastating on a global scale. The goal was to end it as quickly as possible due to the severe loss of life being incurred.

Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan, were projected to be "extremely high for both sides: depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians resisted the invasion, estimates ran into the millions for Allied casualties and tens of millions for Japanese casualties."

The battles of Okinawa and Iwo Jima gave indications of how high the casualty rates would be on both sides. We've lost about 7000 American deaths in 10 years of fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Can anyone imagine the calamity of losing that many in a single battle with even bigger battles on the horizon? If given the choice to drop a new weapon as a means to force surrender or invade and incur tens of thousands of more dead Americans, I wouldn't have to think twice on my choice.

 

[martybegan]

Nukes ended the war. Almost half a million Americans died in only four years of fighting. WWII was devastating on a global scale. The goal was to end it as quickly as possible due to the severe loss of life being incurred.

Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan, were projected to be "extremely high for both sides: depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians resisted the invasion, estimates ran into the millions for Allied casualties and tens of millions for Japanese casualties."

The battles of Okinawa and Iwo Jima gave indications of how high the casualty rates would be on both sides. We've lost about 7000 American deaths in 10 years of fighting. Can anyone imagine the calamity of losing that many in a single battle with even bigger battles on the horizon? If given the choice to drop a new weapon as a means to force surrender or invade and incur tens of thousands of more dead Americans, I wouldn't have to think twice on my choice.

The US also bluffed by implying they had many more bombs. The Japanese were facing destruction against a foe they couldn't fight back against. The B-29's flew too high for effective AA fire, and were almost as fast at that altitude as the best Japanese fighter availible. Even if they could try to shoot it down, all the US would have to do is send 50 bombers out, with only 1 carrying the A-bomb in the middle of the formation.

I think it was the inability to fight back is what made the Emperor force a surrender.

 

[whitehall]

You opened a big can 'O worms with this one joe. The winner writes the history books. The fact is that Japan was defeated before we dropped the Bombs. The Bushido holdouts were trying to negotiate a surrender but Harry Truman wouldn't negotiate because of FDR. Before he died the possibly brain damaged FDR decreed that the US would only accept "unconditional surrender". Japan was trying to negotiate terms of surrender through Stalin and the sticky point was the preservation of the emperor. Ironically Hirohito was not hanged and we dropped the bombs anyway. Civilian life was cheap during WW2. It's hard to imagine killing tens of thousands of civilians in a fireball and having another ten thousand die of radiation poisoning in order to force the military to surrender but that's the way it happened.

 

[Sallow]

Oh gosh really?

Those bombs did an immense amount of damage. And they shook the national psyche. I've been to Japan many times. And the war is still very fresh in the minds of the Japanese.

 

[High_Gravity]

Not really.

This is one of the myths we Americans like to tell ourselves, but the Japanese Surrender had a lot more to do with the fact the USSR entered the Pacific War.

Japan's goal in 1945 was not to win. They knew they were done. It was to get a favorable peace. One that let them keep some of their gains in China. When the USSR entered the war on August 8th, and started rolling up their Armies in a few days, they knew they had no real options. Eithere Japan could be entirely occuppied by the US, or partioned like Germany.

And there were enough horror stories about what the soviets were doing in East Germany to make that an easy pick.

The bombs, on the other hand, didn't do that much damage. They were relatively low kilotons, we had devastated Japans cities with conventional bombing and killed far more people that way.

The nukes we dropped on Japan didn't doo that much damage? you are either high or a fuckin idiot, maybe both in your case.

 

[martybegan]

You opened a big can 'O worms with this one joe. The winner writes the history books. The fact is that Japan was defeated before we dropped the Bombs. The Bushido holdouts were trying to negotiate a surrender but Harry Truman wouldn't negotiate because of FDR. Before he died the possibly brain damaged FDR decreed that the US would only accept "unconditional surrender". Japan was trying to negotiate terms of surrender through Stalin and the sticky point was the preservation of the emperor. Ironically Hirohito was not hanged and we dropped the bombs anyway. Civilian life was cheap during WW2. It's hard to imagine killing tens of thousands of civilians in a fireball and having another ten thousand die of radiation poisoning in order to force the military to surrender but that's the way it happened.

Yes, Japan was practially defeated, but their leadership would not admit to it. They were actually asking for 4 conditions, not just the emperor being able to remain in power. This included any war crime trials to be done by the Japanese themselves, no occupation of Japan proper, no disarming of its remaining soliders, and finally no effect to the emperor's power.

The allies were going for the same conditions they gave the Germans, and the Japanese were not having any of it.

 

[whitehall]

You opened a big can 'O worms with this one joe. The winner writes the history books. The fact is that Japan was defeated before we dropped the Bombs. The Bushido holdouts were trying to negotiate a surrender but Harry Truman wouldn't negotiate because of FDR. Before he died the possibly brain damaged FDR decreed that the US would only accept "unconditional surrender". Japan was trying to negotiate terms of surrender through Stalin and the sticky point was the preservation of the emperor. Ironically Hirohito was not hanged and we dropped the bombs anyway. Civilian life was cheap during WW2. It's hard to imagine killing tens of thousands of civilians in a fireball and having another ten thousand die of radiation poisoning in order to force the military to surrender but that's the way it happened.

Yes, Japan was practially defeated, but their leadership would not admit to it. They were actually asking for 4 conditions, not just the emperor being able to remain in power. This included any war crime trials to be done by the Japanese themselves, no occupation of Japan proper, no disarming of its remaining soliders, and finally no effect to the emperor's power.

The allies were going for the same conditions they gave the Germans, and the Japanese were not having any of it.

Regardless of the points of contention, Truman refused to even talk to the Japanese while Stalin was lying to them and hoping to gobble up territory. It's hard to imagine today but our own government was hanging on to a antiquated racist opinion of the Japanese. Racism was one of the reasons the US was so unprepared for Pearl Harbor and the Philippine surrender. Elected officials actually thought that Japan couldn't build a ship that would float or a plane that would fly and the nearsighted Japanese couldn't fly anyway. It was the conventional thinking and even the eggheads who built the Bomb were dying to try it out on an inferior race.

 

[martybegan]

You opened a big can 'O worms with this one joe. The winner writes the history books. The fact is that Japan was defeated before we dropped the Bombs. The Bushido holdouts were trying to negotiate a surrender but Harry Truman wouldn't negotiate because of FDR. Before he died the possibly brain damaged FDR decreed that the US would only accept "unconditional surrender". Japan was trying to negotiate terms of surrender through Stalin and the sticky point was the preservation of the emperor. Ironically Hirohito was not hanged and we dropped the bombs anyway. Civilian life was cheap during WW2. It's hard to imagine killing tens of thousands of civilians in a fireball and having another ten thousand die of radiation poisoning in order to force the military to surrender but that's the way it happened.

Yes, Japan was practially defeated, but their leadership would not admit to it. They were actually asking for 4 conditions, not just the emperor being able to remain in power. This included any war crime trials to be done by the Japanese themselves, no occupation of Japan proper, no disarming of its remaining soliders, and finally no effect to the emperor's power.

The allies were going for the same conditions they gave the Germans, and the Japanese were not having any of it.

Regardless of the points of contention, Truman refused to even talk to the Japanese while Stalin was lying to them and hoping to gobble up territory. It's hard to imagine today but our own government was hanging on to a antiquated racist opinion of the Japanese. Racism was one of the reasons the US was so unprepared for Pearl Harbor and the Philippine surrender. Elected officials actually thought that Japan couldn't build a ship that would float or a plane that would fly and the nearsighted Japanese couldn't fly anyway. It was the conventional thinking and even the eggheads who built the Bomb were dying to try it out on an inferior race.

The allies gave the Potsdam declration, which stated thier terms. The Japanese refused it. Yes there was racsim, but there was racism both ways. The Japanese as a race we pretty damn full of themselves as well. Even then the US/Japan fighting was second in ferocity and racial hatred. The German/Russian front was far worse, and all those people were white.

You are also confusing popular opinion vs. government/military opinion. While the military did not think the Japanese would attack pearl harbor, they were assuming an attack would happen in the Indonesia area, and they figured it would be sucessful. They did underestimate thier ability and materials, but it had just as much to do with seeing Japan as a relatively new industrial nation as it did with the background racial thoughts of the time.

 

[editec]

Not really.

This is one of the myths we Americans like to tell ourselves, but the Japanese Surrender had a lot more to do with the fact the USSR entered the Pacific War.

Japan's goal in 1945 was not to win. They knew they were done. It was to get a favorable peace. One that let them keep some of their gains in China. When the USSR entered the war on August 8th, and started rolling up their Armies in a few days, they knew they had no real options. Eithere Japan could be entirely occuppied by the US, or partioned like Germany.

And there were enough horror stories about what the soviets were doing in East Germany to make that an easy pick.

The bombs, on the other hand, didn't do that much damage. They were relatively low kilotons, we had devastated Japans cities with conventional bombing and killed far more people that way.

Sounds plausible but I think it's wrong.

Japan was trying to surrender before the bombs dropped.

Once those bombs took out two cities, the Emporer of Japan had more than enough political power (and yes politics mattered even in Japan) to accept surrender without condition.

 

[Warrior102]

Well, it's a good thing they quit, because the U.S. expected to have another atomic bomb ready for use in the third week of August, with three more in September and a three more in October.

 

[High_Gravity]

Where were all these brave arm chair Generals during the war? Our Military really could have used guys like ginscpy and joeb131.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Well, it's a good thing they quit, because the U.S. expected to have another atomic bomb ready for use in the third week of August, with three more in September and a three more in October.

Considering that the US is the only country who has nuked anyone, I think it's ironic we're telling other countries what nukes they can have.

 

[High_Gravity]

Well, it's a good thing they quit, because the U.S. expected to have another atomic bomb ready for use in the third week of August, with three more in September and a three more in October.

Considering that the US is the only country who has nuked anyone, I think it's ironic we're telling other countries what nukes they can have.

Don't worry if Germany, Russia and Japan had nukes back during the war they most definently would have used them with no issues.

 

[whitehall]

Yes, Japan was practially defeated, but their leadership would not admit to it. They were actually asking for 4 conditions, not just the emperor being able to remain in power. This included any war crime trials to be done by the Japanese themselves, no occupation of Japan proper, no disarming of its remaining soliders, and finally no effect to the emperor's power.

The allies were going for the same conditions they gave the Germans, and the Japanese were not having any of it.

Regardless of the points of contention, Truman refused to even talk to the Japanese while Stalin was lying to them and hoping to gobble up territory. It's hard to imagine today but our own government was hanging on to a antiquated racist opinion of the Japanese. Racism was one of the reasons the US was so unprepared for Pearl Harbor and the Philippine surrender. Elected officials actually thought that Japan couldn't build a ship that would float or a plane that would fly and the nearsighted Japanese couldn't fly anyway. It was the conventional thinking and even the eggheads who built the Bomb were dying to try it out on an inferior race.

The allies gave the Potsdam declration, which stated thier terms. The Japanese refused it. Yes there was racsim, but there was racism both ways. The Japanese as a race we pretty damn full of themselves as well. Even then the US/Japan fighting was second in ferocity and racial hatred. The German/Russian front was far worse, and all those people were white.

You are also confusing popular opinion vs. government/military opinion. While the military did not think the Japanese would attack pearl harbor, they were assuming an attack would happen in the Indonesia area, and they figured it would be sucessful. They did underestimate thier ability and materials, but it had just as much to do with seeing Japan as a relatively new industrial nation as it did with the background racial thoughts of the time.

I'm talking about government/military opinion. Inherent racism wasn't the only reason but it was a big factor in using Atomic weapons against the Japanese and it is seldom addressed. There was no plan to use the Bomb on Europeans who looked like us even though the casualty numbers were staggering after Normandy. When you factor in a weak relatively cluless president handpicked by the DNC to replace the dying FDR while the more experienced and moderate V.P. was on vacation it's not suprising that "give 'em hell" Harry Truman would authorize the use of the Bomb while refusing to negotiate surrender terms.

 

[martybegan]

Regardless of the points of contention, Truman refused to even talk to the Japanese while Stalin was lying to them and hoping to gobble up territory. It's hard to imagine today but our own government was hanging on to a antiquated racist opinion of the Japanese. Racism was one of the reasons the US was so unprepared for Pearl Harbor and the Philippine surrender. Elected officials actually thought that Japan couldn't build a ship that would float or a plane that would fly and the nearsighted Japanese couldn't fly anyway. It was the conventional thinking and even the eggheads who built the Bomb were dying to try it out on an inferior race.

The allies gave the Potsdam declration, which stated thier terms. The Japanese refused it. Yes there was racsim, but there was racism both ways. The Japanese as a race we pretty damn full of themselves as well. Even then the US/Japan fighting was second in ferocity and racial hatred. The German/Russian front was far worse, and all those people were white.

You are also confusing popular opinion vs. government/military opinion. While the military did not think the Japanese would attack pearl harbor, they were assuming an attack would happen in the Indonesia area, and they figured it would be sucessful. They did underestimate thier ability and materials, but it had just as much to do with seeing Japan as a relatively new industrial nation as it did with the background racial thoughts of the time.

I'm talking about government/military opinion. Inherent racism wasn't the only reason but it was a big factor in using Atomic weapons against the Japanese and it is seldom addressed. There was no plan to use the Bomb on Europeans who looked like us even though the casualty numbers were staggering after Normandy. When you factor in a weak relatively cluless president handpicked by the DNC to replace the dying FDR while the more experienced and moderate V.P. was on vacation it's not suprising that "give 'em hell" Harry Truman would authorize the use of the Bomb while refusing to negotiate surrender terms.

The Bomb was not availible for use in Europe, as the war there ended before it could be tested. Also in Europe the Germans had no hope of stopping any of the allied thrusts. All the forces were on land, and the cohesion of the german forces was disintegrating.

I don't agree with your assesment of Truman either. Remember we refused to negotiate with the Germans as well. If the war in europe was static when a bomb was availible I don't see anyone holding back dropping one on Berlin to end the war. We had already bombed the living hell out of most of thier industrial cities the old fashioned way anyway.

You have to remember that since no one had ever seen one before, a nuclear bomb was just another explosive device used to defeat the enemy. I did not have the negative connotation we see now, as no one knew what the hell it really was.

It was an allied decsion not to negotiate with Japan and to only accept unconditional surrender. This had far more to do with the lessons of WWI than with any inherent racsim.

I

 

[whitehall]

The allies gave the Potsdam declration, which stated thier terms. The Japanese refused it. Yes there was racsim, but there was racism both ways. The Japanese as a race we pretty damn full of themselves as well. Even then the US/Japan fighting was second in ferocity and racial hatred. The German/Russian front was far worse, and all those people were white.

You are also confusing popular opinion vs. government/military opinion. While the military did not think the Japanese would attack pearl harbor, they were assuming an attack would happen in the Indonesia area, and they figured it would be sucessful. They did underestimate thier ability and materials, but it had just as much to do with seeing Japan as a relatively new industrial nation as it did with the background racial thoughts of the time.

I'm talking about government/military opinion. Inherent racism wasn't the only reason but it was a big factor in using Atomic weapons against the Japanese and it is seldom addressed. There was no plan to use the Bomb on Europeans who looked like us even though the casualty numbers were staggering after Normandy. When you factor in a weak relatively cluless president handpicked by the DNC to replace the dying FDR while the more experienced and moderate V.P. was on vacation it's not suprising that "give 'em hell" Harry Truman would authorize the use of the Bomb while refusing to negotiate surrender terms.

The Bomb was not availible for use in Europe, as the war there ended before it could be tested. Also in Europe the Germans had no hope of stopping any of the allied thrusts. All the forces were on land, and the cohesion of the german forces was disintegrating.

I don't agree with your assesment of Truman either. Remember we refused to negotiate with the Germans as well. If the war in europe was static when a bomb was availible I don't see anyone holding back dropping one on Berlin to end the war. We had already bombed the living hell out of most of thier industrial cities the old fashioned way anyway.

You have to remember that since no one had ever seen one before, a nuclear bomb was just another explosive device used to defeat the enemy. I did not have the negative connotation we see now, as no one knew what the hell it really was.

It was an allied decsion not to negotiate with Japan and to only accept unconditional surrender. This had far more to do with the lessons of WWI than with any inherent racsim.

I

Imagine a hick former clothing store manager from Missouri with a high school education having his finger on the trigger of Atomic weapons. When he woke up one morning in 1945 and found himself president of the United States Truman admitted that he had no clue. Maybe that's what democrats intended when they ran him for V.P. while FDR was dying or mentally unfit due to a series of strokes. The media never saw a democrat they didn't like so they inflated Truman's legacy even though he couldn't even win a primary for a second full term and dropped out of politics. Japan was always the intended target for a test of Atomic weapons on humans. The book "First into Nagasaki" was compiled from a series of articles written by Pulitzer winner George Weller who worked for the A.P. Every article about the Atomic devistation was spiked by MacArther (who was appointed the new emperor of Japan) and was never printed. Weller's son found carbon copies after his father's death and they were published.