High Speed Chases Ending in Death - Whose Fault Is It, Really?

[Shogun]

Want to have some fun on a conservative Internet message board? Just put up a thread which is critical of police action. Then sit back and watch what happens.

that you think that USMB is a conservative message board illustrates just how fucking retarded you are. That you think I AM A CONSERVATIVE proves it.

 

[George Costanza]

Want to have some fun on a conservative Internet message board? Just put up a thread which is critical of police action. Then sit back and watch what happens.

that you think that USMB is a conservative message board illustrates just how fucking retarded you are. That you think I AM A CONSERVATIVE proves it.

Why Shogun - whatever made you think I was referring to you in my post? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks . . . "

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Non-Conservative. You vote Republican or Democrat?

 

[Shogun]

Want to have some fun on a conservative Internet message board? Just put up a thread which is critical of police action. Then sit back and watch what happens.

that you think that USMB is a conservative message board illustrates just how fucking retarded you are. That you think I AM A CONSERVATIVE proves it.

Why Shogun - whatever made you think I was referring to you in my post? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks . . . "

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Non-Conservative. You vote Republican or Democrat?

I'm the one most tenaciously reminding you how goofy your "cops are all egos and kill people by chasing criminals" logic is. Besides, I've read this thread entirely and almost everyone other than Crusader Frank is mostly liberal in political persuasion. Perhaps it's just true that it's your perspective that is fucked up on this one.

It would be folly to vote strait party tickets rather than consider individuals up for election. Mostly democrat but also republican when it suits me. However, liberals and conservatives can be found among both parties so, really, your question is moot.

 

[MikeK]

Want to have some fun on a conservative Internet message board? Just put up a thread which is critical of police action. Then sit back and watch what happens.

I believe that would generate an interesting example of the group effect on authoritarian personalities, which tend to work off each other -- as was seen in Hitler's Germany. Put enough of these mentalities together, give them a charismatic leader, stir them up and you get a Third Reich.

We're seeing relatively minor but nonetheless distinct examples of that phenomenon in this thread, in which subliminal reverence for (police) authority transcends the most basic reasoning. Never mind the fact that high-speed pursuit manifests a serious and often unnecessary threat to public safety, the police must be obeyed under any and all circumstances.

 

[uscitizen]

Cop spots a guy speeding. He follows him and turns on the red light. The guy does not yield and, in fact, takes off at a high rate of speed. The only offense observed by the officer is speeding. The car is not stolen. No warrants exist for the owner of the car (which the officer can determine by checking the license plate of the guy's car).

The officer gives chase. A high speed chase ensues which ends when the person being pursued runs a red light, broadsides a car and four people in the car are killied in the flaming crash.

Who is responsible for their deaths?

The guy who was running from the police officer, I hear you say? Really. Let's think about that one. The only observed offense was speeding. Why does the officer feel it necessary to initiate a high speed chase? Why doesn't he just get the guy's license number and wait for him to come home? Why not call for the helicopter and follow the guy just long enough for the copter to take over, follow the suspect and have other officers apprehend him when he stops? It has often been said, they may be able to outrun a single police car, but they can never outrun a radio. Why not use the radio to get the guy, thereby avoiding the dangers inherent in high speed chases?

It is one thing to go into a high speed pursuit of someone when there is a life-threatening situation involved. It is quite another to do so when the only offense observed is speeding or violation of some minor traffic violation.

Had the officer chosen to not initiate the chase, the four innocent people at the intersection would not have been killed.

We need legislation to prevent cops from engaging in high speed chases when there is no legitimate reason to do so. All too often, the only real reason for the chase is the ego of the cop on the back end of it. "By God, that son of a bitch isn't going to disobey MY command to stop!" And here we go . . .

I am all for apprehending criminals. But I am also all for not killing innocent civilians when there is no legitimate reason for the chase in the first place.

It was the fault of the runner. Pure and simple.
Had he not ran no one would have chased him.

This will not be an issue in 10 years as our little cars will have remote engine shutdown features.
Many already do.

 

[Shogun]

Want to have some fun on a conservative Internet message board? Just put up a thread which is critical of police action. Then sit back and watch what happens.

I believe that would generate an interesting example of the group effect on authoritarian personalities, which tend to work off each other -- as was seen in Hitler's Germany. Put enough of these mentalities together, give them a charismatic leader, stir them up and you get a Third Reich.

We're seeing relatively minor but nonetheless distinct examples of that phenomenon in this thread, in which subliminal reverence for (police) authority transcends the most basic reasoning. Never mind the fact that high-speed pursuit manifests a serious and often unnecessary threat to public safety, the police must be obeyed under any and all circumstances.

except i'm one of the most liberal members on this forum... kinda blows your whole opinion right out of the septic tank from whence it came.

also, given that you find yourself supporting a guy whose sole basis from which to form his opinion about police chases is his assumption that most cops are egomaniacs says less about your milgram-wannabe input than it does about your laughable observations about USMB.

seriously.

 

[Wry Catcher]

In California a high speed chase is monitored by a supervisor who has the authority to call off the chase at anytime. In supervisor training this issue was discussed in detail, each cirucmstance is different and the general rule is do no harm.

 

[George Costanza]

that you think that USMB is a conservative message board illustrates just how fucking retarded you are. That you think I AM A CONSERVATIVE proves it.

Why Shogun - whatever made you think I was referring to you in my post? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks . . . "

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Non-Conservative. You vote Republican or Democrat?

I'm the one most tenaciously reminding you how goofy your "cops are all egos and kill people by chasing criminals" logic is. Besides, I've read this thread entirely and almost everyone other than Crusader Frank is mostly liberal in political persuasion. Perhaps it's just true that it's your perspective that is fucked up on this one.

It would be folly to vote strait party tickets rather than consider individuals up for election. Mostly democrat but also republican when it suits me. However, liberals and conservatives can be found among both parties so, really, your question is moot.

Well, I sure do apologize. Based upon your nasty attitude, crude insults and general annoying manner of posting, I quite naturally had assumed you were a conservative. It is rare for a liberal to conduct him/herself as you do on a message board such as this.

Again, I do apologize.

 

[George Costanza]

Want to have some fun on a conservative Internet message board? Just put up a thread which is critical of police action. Then sit back and watch what happens.

I believe that would generate an interesting example of the group effect on authoritarian personalities, which tend to work off each other -- as was seen in Hitler's Germany. Put enough of these mentalities together, give them a charismatic leader, stir them up and you get a Third Reich.

We're seeing relatively minor but nonetheless distinct examples of that phenomenon in this thread, in which subliminal reverence for (police) authority transcends the most basic reasoning. Never mind the fact that high-speed pursuit manifests a serious and often unnecessary threat to public safety, the police must be obeyed under any and all circumstances.

The authoritarian personality. Yes! I have read somewhat on this phenomenon as it relates to modern day conservatism. John Dean talks a lot about this is his book, "Conservatives Without Conscience."

I once started an entire thread on this very subject over on another message board. It generated some interesting responses, mainly from - of course - the authoritarian personalities who were unable to see that they were authoritarian personalities (one of the prime indicators of this type of personality - a total lack of self-awareness).

 

[George Costanza]

It was the fault of the runner. Pure and simple.
Had he not ran no one would have chased him.

And had he not been chased, he would not have run.

Let me ask you this - of the two people involved, a police officer and a scared, usually young, punk, which of the two OUGHT to have the experience, maturity and ability to make a RESPONSIBLE judgment as to whether the chase is worth the risk to innocent human life: the police officer or the punk?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Want to have some fun on a conservative Internet message board? Just put up a thread which is critical of police action. Then sit back and watch what happens.

Chasing a speeder...lol..what a maroon...you really think you made a point or is this just some kind of masturbatory fantasy on your part?

 

[Shogun]

Why Shogun - whatever made you think I was referring to you in my post? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks . . . "

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Non-Conservative. You vote Republican or Democrat?

I'm the one most tenaciously reminding you how goofy your "cops are all egos and kill people by chasing criminals" logic is. Besides, I've read this thread entirely and almost everyone other than Crusader Frank is mostly liberal in political persuasion. Perhaps it's just true that it's your perspective that is fucked up on this one.

It would be folly to vote strait party tickets rather than consider individuals up for election. Mostly democrat but also republican when it suits me. However, liberals and conservatives can be found among both parties so, really, your question is moot.

Well, I sure do apologize. Based upon your nasty attitude, crude insults and general annoying manner of posting, I quite naturally had assumed you were a conservative. It is rare for a liberal to conduct him/herself as you do on a message board such as this.

Again, I do apologize.

you certainly do seem to have a problem with assumptions. maybe you should remember this thread the next time you find yourself crying about the generalized assumptions of conservatives. something to think about.

 

[Shogun]

It was the fault of the runner. Pure and simple.
Had he not ran no one would have chased him.

And had he not been chased, he would not have run.

Let me ask you this - of the two people involved, a police officer and a scared, usually young, punk, which of the two OUGHT to have the experience, maturity and ability to make a RESPONSIBLE judgment as to whether the chase is worth the risk to innocent human life: the police officer or the punk?

case in point: assumption.

 

[Immanuel]

Why Shogun - whatever made you think I was referring to you in my post? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks . . . "

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Non-Conservative. You vote Republican or Democrat?

I'm the one most tenaciously reminding you how goofy your "cops are all egos and kill people by chasing criminals" logic is. Besides, I've read this thread entirely and almost everyone other than Crusader Frank is mostly liberal in political persuasion. Perhaps it's just true that it's your perspective that is fucked up on this one.

It would be folly to vote strait party tickets rather than consider individuals up for election. Mostly democrat but also republican when it suits me. However, liberals and conservatives can be found among both parties so, really, your question is moot.

Well, I sure do apologize. Based upon your nasty attitude, crude insults and general annoying manner of posting, I quite naturally had assumed you were a conservative. It is rare for a liberal to conduct him/herself as you do on a message board such as this.

Again, I do apologize.

That is why we conservatives are always given such a bad name.

We get people like Bush thrown in our lap, who act like liberals yet everyone assumes since they are nasty that they must be conservative. It's an undeserved reputation, I tell ya. One, I'm doing my best to defeat. Then again, I do occasionally get a bit nasty myself, but I try not to.

Immie

 

[George Costanza]

I'm the one most tenaciously reminding you how goofy your "cops are all egos and kill people by chasing criminals" logic is. Besides, I've read this thread entirely and almost everyone other than Crusader Frank is mostly liberal in political persuasion. Perhaps it's just true that it's your perspective that is fucked up on this one.

It would be folly to vote strait party tickets rather than consider individuals up for election. Mostly democrat but also republican when it suits me. However, liberals and conservatives can be found among both parties so, really, your question is moot.

Well, I sure do apologize. Based upon your nasty attitude, crude insults and general annoying manner of posting, I quite naturally had assumed you were a conservative. It is rare for a liberal to conduct him/herself as you do on a message board such as this.

Again, I do apologize.

That is why we conservatives are always given such a bad name.

We get people like Bush thrown in our lap, who act like liberals yet everyone assumes since they are nasty that they must be conservative. It's an undeserved reputation, I tell ya. One, I'm doing my best to defeat. Then again, I do occasionally get a bit nasty myself, but I try not to.

Immie

Now, see - and I had you pegged for a liberal. Honest.

Old Shogun is OK - we all get a little heated from time to time on these boards. I remember advice given to me by my Sainted Father: Never discuss politics or religion. Some rather well-worn advice, but so true. I guess the only place to do it safely is under the anonymity of an Internet message board.

Anyway, I try to be as civil about it as I can be and I appreciate those who do also. You are a credit to your side of the fence, my friend. Keep it up!

 

[Immanuel]

Well, I sure do apologize. Based upon your nasty attitude, crude insults and general annoying manner of posting, I quite naturally had assumed you were a conservative. It is rare for a liberal to conduct him/herself as you do on a message board such as this.

Again, I do apologize.

That is why we conservatives are always given such a bad name.

We get people like Bush thrown in our lap, who act like liberals yet everyone assumes since they are nasty that they must be conservative. It's an undeserved reputation, I tell ya. One, I'm doing my best to defeat. Then again, I do occasionally get a bit nasty myself, but I try not to.

Immie

Now, see - and I had you pegged for a liberal. Honest.

Old Shogun is OK - we all get a little heated from time to time on these boards. I remember advice given to me by my Sainted Father: Never discuss politics or religion. Some rather well-worn advice, but so true. I guess the only place to do it safely is under the anonymity of an Internet message board.

Anyway, I try to be as civil about it as I can be and I appreciate those who do also. You are a credit to your side of the fence, my friend. Keep it up!

Liberal? I knew there was a reason I didn't like you!

Shogun is in fact ok. Sometimes he is even fun to read.

Immie

 

[MikeK]

[...]

except i'm one of the most liberal members on this forum... kinda blows your whole opinion right out of the septic tank from whence it came.

Because you perceive yourself as "Liberal" does not exclude the possibility that your personal makeup is not essentially authoritarian (or even a little schizo).

[...]also, given that you find yourself supporting a guy whose sole basis from which to form his opinion about police chases is his assumption that most cops are egomaniacs says less about your milgram-wannabe input than it does about your laughable observations about USMB.

seriously.

I'm quite sure all cops are not egomaniacs. But it is a statistical fact that the police occupation manifests the highest percentile rate of suicide, divorce and alcoholism. So something is going on there and you might find that doing a little research into the academic circumstances of that reality will alter your thinking.

 

[Shogun]

[...]

except i'm one of the most liberal members on this forum... kinda blows your whole opinion right out of the septic tank from whence it came.

Because you perceive yourself as "Liberal" does not exclude the possibility that your personal makeup is not essentially authoritarian (or even a little schizo).

[...]also, given that you find yourself supporting a guy whose sole basis from which to form his opinion about police chases is his assumption that most cops are egomaniacs says less about your milgram-wannabe input than it does about your laughable observations about USMB.

seriously.

I'm quite sure all cops are not egomaniacs. But it is a statistical fact that the police occupation manifests the highest percentile rate of suicide, divorce and alcoholism. So something is going on there and you might find that doing a little research into the academic circumstances of that reality will alter your thinking.

Maybe a little more tenure around USMB beyond your very TRULY significant month here will provide you with more insight than you seem to be missing today.

Your opinion of the causes of suicide, divorce and alcoholism in the police force is about as compelling as your community college grasp on personality types. Now, admit that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about some more.

 

[MikeK]

[...]
I once started an entire thread on this very subject over on another message board. It generated some interesting responses, mainly from - of course - the authoritarian personalities who were unable to see that they were authoritarian personalities (one of the prime indicators of this type of personality - a total lack of self-awareness).

George,

You might find this interesting:



The Authoritarian Personality:

Back in the 1960s, the Behavioral profession published statistics that showed the suicide, divorce and alcoholism rate in the police occupation to be almost double that of the general population. This rather startling revelation has since captured the attention of many concerned organizations, including the Citizens Commission On Human Rights, each of which has conducted independent research. The gravity of the situation is such that one organization, the National Police Suicide Foundation, is devoted exclusively to the study of this disturbing phenomenon.

The bottom line in the aggregate findings of these researchers holds, predictably, that stress is the cause of the inordinate rate of self destructive behavior among police. And while logical and understandable, when one considers how many occupations are equally if not significantly more stressful, the conclusion seems incomplete and, in my opinion, rather shallow.

Because of my innate interest in human behavior I made a point of reading all the relevant research on this subject and I attended a few professional seminars, none of which satisfied my curiosity as to the mechanics of the stress factors which compel so many cops to alienate their loved ones, to wed the bottle, and to "eat the gun" (cops even have an esoteric phrase for suicide within the job). But the professor of a post-grad psychology course I took in 1974 (at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Manhattan), Dr. Jana Libertz, Ph.D., impressed me beyond my expectation with a brilliantly incisive exposition of the potentially pathogenic nature of the police occupation. What follows is a summary of my understanding of Dr. Libertz's observations, which I have discussed at length with several Behavioral professionals, each of whom concur without reservation.


When one takes an oath and accepts appointment as a police officer one is effectively detached from the community of ordinary citizens and becomes an agent of the state, a circumstance which often leads to development of the authoritarian personality. The exceptions to this prospect are small-town sheriffs and police officers whose familiarity with all or most of the citizens he serves operates to maintain his sense of community with them. Interestingly, this category of police officer does not appear in the suicide statistics, which include only members of larger agencies who deal with the public on an impersonal and strictly authoritarian (as apart from authoritative) level.

Acceptance of the authoritarian role, while perfectly compatible with the structure of a totalitarian state, will almost inevitably lead to stressful inner conflicts when occurring within the relatively permissive atmosphere of a democratic society -- where police authority is expediently tolerated rather than generally dominant. Those individuals who permit the authoritarian aspect of their occupation to supplant their personal reality stand to lose contact with the positive aspects of their former selves, including feelings toward family, "civilian" friends, and the outer community in general.

In Freudian terms this situation sets up an ego/alter-ego conflict which often leads to loss of the essential self, which in ordinary terms means the assumption of a new identity -- one which is temporary and contingent on a synthetic sense of exceptional personal potency. Alienation is the natural consequence of this kind of crisis and often leads to irrational (sometimes illegal) self-destructive conduct, typically including the excessive use of alcohol or other drugs.

The authoritarian personality adrift in a democracy is a kind of lost soul. Typical manifestations of this condition include the tendency to associate only with other (similarly affected) police officers, inability to communicate with family or former friends, a pronounced cynicism, a generally contemptuous attitude and inability to accept the idea that the power of the state (the participant essence of the alter-ego) is not omnipotent. Extreme examples of this condition are seen in such behaviors as that of NYC Patrolman Justin Volpe who, in August, 1977, felt justified in punishing a belligerent arrestee by forcing the handle of a toilet brush into his rectum, causing severe abdominal injuries. (Volpe is presently serving a 30-year sentence for that distorted sense of personal power).

While there are many equally irrational examples of "police brutality" (unbridled authoritarian expression) most are never exposed but all serve to illustrate the kind psychopathology that arises from the misguided sense of power which resides in the authoritarian mentality. Most incidents of this nature are outward expressions of the kind of rage and arrogant indignation that a frustrated sense of power can evoke. But everyone who is affected by the authoritarian personality syndrome is not capable of such outer-directed expression. And because suicide is sometimes the result of accumulated homicidal rage turned inward, we have substantive insight into the dynamic of the stress which underlies the phenomenal rate of police suicide.

Avoidance of the kind of stress which derives from an unrealistic sense of personal power requires an objective understanding of the limits of one's official authority in relation to the rights of ordinary citizens and, most important, a clear awareness that one's offical status is temporary and revocable. Problems arise when this equation is either misunderstood or ignored.

How all of this relates to the Waco massacre is seen in the arrogance of those ATF management and supervisory level personnel who planned and orchestrated the illegal raid on the Davidian colony. Those individuals are directly responsible for the deaths of the four agents who would still be alive if an appropriate rather than exaggerated sense of authority had prevailed from the beginning. In the aftermath of that tragedy is seen the inability of many law-enforcement officers to accept that the victims of that enormous and protracted malfeasance are not to blame for it. This inability is a manifest example of the authoritarian personality.

The state must be obeyed.

 

[Biggles]

Unfortunately, it is not as easy as most of you folks would have it. On this particular issue, I think you have to step back and take a look at the Big Picture. Is stopping someone whose only crime has been speeding or some other type of relatively minor traffic offense, worth risking the lives of innocent civilians?

To me, there is no question. It isn't. As a citizen, I would MUCH prefer that cops not pursue speeders who don't yield than to have to worry about being killed as a consequence of their doing so.

It is so easy to say: "Perp's fault! Run from the cops, too bad - let the chips fall where they may and devil take the hindmost. We can't have people running from our police."

Yes, we can. And for damn good reason in many cases.

So, you think that we should wait for people to run over a little old lady pushing a baby carriage before the cops can stop them?

No - I think that, unless the chase involves a life and death situation in some fashion, it shouldn't happen. The law generally does not equate property damage issues with life threatening issues. You can't kill someone because he wrote a bad check on your account. You can kill him if he is trying to kill you.

Same deal here. Unless life is being threatened by something the suspect is doing, cops should not be able to endaged the lives of others by chasing the suspect at high speeds over public roads and highways.

So it has to be life or death?? So next time one of us gets pulled over for speeding or rolling through a stop sign, or a cop tries to pull us over, we just jump on the gas and speed away?

Because according to your logic, the cop shall not pursue since a speeding ticket or doing a California stop is in no way a life or death situation.

Your logic is just plain illogical.